Not By Works

[BillG]

I told him "if" because what he believes about daily salvation is wrong..


Secondly, for the umpteenth time, we are to do works, BUT NOT FOR THE PURPOSE OF GAINING OR KEEPING SALVATION.. Why can you not understand that?


Lastly, I DO think Jesus will ask us why we thought our works would save us, when HE has ALREADY saved us. WORKS DO NOT SAVE US.

But I would say we are still saved
When I think about it, how many times did Jesus say to his disciples "Why do you not get this, what is it that you don't understand"

But to me he never rejected a dumb sheep because they were dumb.
They are still his sheep

 

[Grace777x70]

For the sake of those reading along who must be totally confused unless they're quasi theologians....


Just answer this:

ARE WE TO DO WORKS OR NOT?


Please answer with a simple YES or NO.

(I would have no difficulty in answering this question or any other question VERY CLEARLY, let's see if YOU can)

No...we are NOT to do good works in the way that some seem to be implying.

Good works are a natural manifestation of the fruit of the spirit on us the branches that are on the Vine. They are Christ's good works flowing in and through us.

I also have said this many times . We are working with the Lord in the family business of telling people of the love and grace of our loving Father and Lord towards them.

We get to participate in the good works that God has prepared for us to walk in before the foundation of the world. Eph 2:10.

It is NOT a requirement for salvation that some try to make it out to be. That is where the hang-up is it seems with these different views from people which is exactly what blue_ladybug was trying to get across in this thread as well as a whole host of others.

 

[FranC]

With you on this.

I suppose it's how it's explained.

For me this is the way I look at it.

God gave the law of Moses, given before they entered the promised land. The laws given for me are the divine nature of God.

So God is saying this how I expect you to be, which is the opposite of those in the land I will give you. So a standard has been set and that's Gods standard.

Jesus summed up the whole 10 with

Matthew 22:37-39


Jesus said to him, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’

There is no denying that Jesus commands this.

its intersting, if you notice what is the crux on the above? To me it is LOVE.

We love God, why? Because he first loved us.

To me in a sense it's like God is saying "I love you, now you know it, now I want you to spread the love"

I have led a few to Christ who seem to think that they are nice people and do good, things like put money in a charity box, don't do this or that, then they say, surely God will forgive me (if there is one) when I meet him.

When I dig deeper they have come to the realisation "Wow I have nothing to offer and what I thought I had is useless"

But now they have a knowledge of who God really is, the attitude has changed. It's "Wow God loves me as I am, has forgiven me, Jesus died for me"

It goes from being "how can you judge me when I do good things and I deserve to be in heaven to wow I want to be like you, not to impress you but because you impress me and I love you"

I still think we do not have to good works to be saved, wrong reasoning with wrong results.
We do works for the right reasons and that to me is summed in the verses given above. All out of love.

AGREED!!

Could we hang on to this please?

The persons you're speaking of are TRYING TO GET SAVED BY WORKS.

I've been saying all along that works will not SAVE a person.
OK

Then the person realizes that it's Jesus and the acceptance of HIM that saves. (even Catholics believe this and you know where I live and what did so I know their doctrine well).

Now they're saved. GREAT!!! Now they're trusting in Jesus and will be saved. JUSTIFICATION.

Now comes SANCTIFICATION. This is a cooperative work between man and God. This comes from theology, it's difficult to find it in the bible, except that you WILL find many, many verses that say how we are to OBEY God.

So we are still to OBEY, but now we have the POWER to obey by having the Holy Spirit be by our side --- our paraclete.

This explanation makes it clear that is it also WE who must cooperate with God. He is not going to do EVERYTHING for us.
He did EVERYTHING to save us, now we must do our part.

I used to teach this. It has to be explained like this or people don't understand.
We cannot say that everything we do is through God. We have to say that everything we do is with the help of the Holy Spirit.
I understand what people mean when they say they do everything through God. We are a new creature in Christ, and we work through Him. But it's still US doing the work. We're not little puppets God moves around.

Whadaya think?

 

[BillG]

Fran

It would help you greatly if you looked at the word "do" in greek.

We of the Divine Spirit of God..will do His works.

Oops don't say that to Fran.

Not getting at you Fran, I just know your thoughts to us Greekers.

Is greekers a word?

 

[FranC]

No...we are NOT to dogood works in the way that some seem to be implying.

Good works are a natural manifestation of the fruit of the spirit on us the branches that are on the Vine. They are Christ's good works flowing in and through us.

I also have said this many times . We are working with the Lord in the family business of telling people of the love and grace of our loving Father and Lord towards them. We get to participate in the good works that God has prepared for us to walk in before the foundation of the world. Eph 2:10.

It is NOT a requirement for salvation that some try to make it out to be. That is where the hang-up is it seems with these different views from people which is exactly what blue_ladybug was trying to get across in this thread as well as a whole host of others.

You and Blue both have trouble answering.
Nothing to get across.

Here's the answer:

YES.

 

[FranC]

Oops don't say that to Fran.

Not getting at you Fran, I just know your thoughts to us Greekers.

Is greekers a word?

Well, it is now!!

And I know my Greek as well as the next non-Koinè Greek guy.
I just don't see any reason to use it for our purposes here.

 

[blue_ladybug]

First of all, I never said that he was dumb. I simply reiterated to him, ad nauseam, that we don't need daily salvation..

But I would say we are still saved
When I think about it, how many times did Jesus say to his disciples "Why do you not get this, what is it that you don't understand"

But to me he never rejected a dumb sheep because they were dumb.
They are still his sheep

 

[FranC]

No offense, but you DO miss points rather frequently. Like the point of not doing works solely for the hope of keeping salvation. Our salvation is NOT contingent upon the works we do. The works we do, are to show love for God and each other. But our works are NOT necessary for keeping salvation.

How come you don't answer a simple question?

If you just keep telling me I don't understand anything, how is our conversation supposed to continue??

 

[FranC]

First of all, I never said that he was dumb. I simply reiterated to him, ad nauseam, that we don't need daily salvation..

Yes. We need daily salvation until the day we die.

Unless you believe in OSAS which is not biblical.

 

[blue_ladybug]

Then we're somewhat on the same page. I'VE been saying all along that works don't save us. LOL... It's you whose asked a million times whether we're to do works or not.. The answer is YES.


BUT NOT TO GET SAVED.

AGREED!!

Could we hang on to this please?

The persons you're speaking of are TRYING TO GET SAVED BY WORKS.

I've been saying all along that works will not SAVE a person.
OK

Then the person realizes that it's Jesus and the acceptance of HIM that saves. (even Catholics believe this and you know where I live and what did so I know their doctrine well).

Now they're saved. GREAT!!! Now they're trusting in Jesus and will be saved. JUSTIFICATION.

Now comes SANCTIFICATION. This is a cooperative work between man and God. This comes from theology, it's difficult to find it in the bible, except that you WILL find many, many verses that say how we are to OBEY God.

So we are still to OBEY, but now we have the POWER to obey by having the Holy Spirit be by our side --- our paraclete.

This explanation makes it clear that is it also WE who must cooperate with God. He is not going to do EVERYTHING for us.
He did EVERYTHING to save us, now we must do our part.

I used to teach this. It has to be explained like this or people don't understand.
We cannot say that everything we do is through God. We have to say that everything we do is with the help of the Holy Spirit.
I understand what people mean when they say they do everything through God. We are a new creature in Christ, and we work through Him. But it's still US doing the work. We're not little puppets God moves around.

Whadaya think?

 

[Desertsrose]

You are completely missing the whole point and obviously not understanding what is really being said. No place is it said by anyone that I have seen that we don't "repent" or that we lay around and do nothing.

I will say this again as I have for now about the 20th time. Hopefully it will be a blessing to someone.

Good works that the Lord does in and through us as we participate in these with Him are a fruit of His life being manifested - they do NOT create nor maintain salvation as in being one spirit with the Lord.

Good works are done because we are already saved - they do not create salvation.

I don't chafe at the term "our doing" as in doing good works because it is a response to the life of God in us.

We do participate in what God is doing in and through us.

What I would chafe at is the notion that we put "the doing" from ourselves by self-effort and not from the life of Christ in us. It's all a matter of where this "work originates" from - our flesh or from our inner man in Christ.

Outwardly they can look the same. I know that only God that looks on our heart can answer that question but it is subtle difference between works-based righteousness and faith-based righteousness.

Another term I use a lot that may throw some off is that I say we are to "rest" in the finished work of Christ. The word "rest" can bring the connotations that we do nothing which is not the truth. It's the exact opposite.

I won't speak for the others but as far as works or fruit go from a believer in Christ - here is what I believe when considering John Chapter 15 and the "works/fruit" of a believer.

Jesus is the Vine - we are the branches. The branch bears fruit..it does not produce it.

Without Him we can do nothing. We are to remain/abide/rest in the Lord - abide/remain/rest in the Lord and what He has done for us in His finished work. John 15

The life of the Vine supplies the "sap"needed for the bearing of fruit but it is His fruit that is produced in us.

Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is not a lazy passive existence. When we know that God has already provided everything we need and we access His wisdom, provision, strength by faith - we'll be governed by the Holy Spirit in a highly strategic and active life.

Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is not an inactive lifestyle. It's a Spirit-led lifestyle where we flow in good works ( His fruit bearing in us ) that God had planned for us all along.

Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our obedience in action.

Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our warfare.

Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our faith in action. - we are fighting the good fight of faith

Hebrews 4:10-11 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.

[SUP]11 [/SUP] Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.

There is a vast difference between "us" doing things and the Lord doing things through and in us.

We can do things in our own flesh like Abraham tried to fulfill the will of God by creating an Ishmael or wait for the Lord to work through us to produce the child of promise - Isaac. Galatians 4:22-24, 30

Psalm 127:1 (NASB)

Unless the LORD builds the house, They labor in vain who build it; Unless the LORD guards the city, The watchman keeps awake in vain.

Hi G7,

Actually I also get from your past posts that Jesus is doing it all. And even in this post that you clarified your ideas are still saying that Jesus does it, but we're participating in it somehow.

How I believe scripture teaches us is that we do it all........through obedience and through the power and life He's given us.

In other words work out your salvation with fear and trembling. I'm doing the work, but it's God who enables me. He's not working out my salvation in that command. I am, but it's through His power and His giftings so the glory goes to Him for what He's done in me. But it's still me doing the doing.

In many of your posts you say Jesus is doing it. He's not doing it in the way you've said He is. Maybe what you write isn't what you mean, but we can only go by what you've written.

I thought you might like to know that Fran isn't the only one misunderstanding you if you mean differently that what you've written.

 

[blue_ladybug]

Fran, Jesus already has saved us. If what you say about daily salvation is true, that means Christ has to die daily to save us. And that IS NOT TRUE.

Yes. We need daily salvation until the day we die.

Unless you believe in OSAS which is not biblical.

 

[FranC]

Then we're somewhat on the same page. I'VE been saying all along that works don't save us. LOL... It's you whose asked a million times whether we're to do works or not.. The answer is YES.


BUT NOT TO GET SAVED.

OK Blue.

You answered the question.

Kind of!



THE ANSWER IS YES!

It doesn't matter WHAT the reason is.
AS LONG AS WE DO WHAT JESUS SAID TO DO.
OBEY.

 

[blue_ladybug]

You CANNOT lose your salvation UNLESS you DENY Jesus Christ..

Yes. We need daily salvation until the day we die.

Unless you believe in OSAS which is not biblical.

 

[FranC]

Fran, Jesus already has saved us. If what you say about daily salvation is true, that means Christ has to die daily to save us. And that IS NOT TRUE.

NO!

Could you do me a favor, please?

Could you Google Justification and Sanctification and read a few different links on it
and Tomorrow, could you come here and tell me what you think about it.

I have a feeling the difference between the two is not distinquishable to you???
It's really important.

 

[stonesoffire]

Works are about rewards. Salvation is by blood.

Life is not in works unless its of Spirit.

Why is this hard?

 

[FranC]

You CANNOT lose your salvation UNLESS you DENY Jesus Christ..

You CANNOT lose your salvation UNLESS you DENY Jesus Christ

I agree.

 

[Grace777x70]

You and Blue both have trouble answering.
Nothing to get across.

Here's the answer:

YES.

If you received Christ and never did a good work ( of course it depends now what a good work is and how many times one needs to do it in order for it to be legitimate in our own minds ).

Let's say that someone is dying and receive Christ - does the fact that this person didn't do any "good works" that people would tend to think - would he go to hell now?

Works do not have anything to do with creating or maintain salvation. They are simply a manifestation of the life of Christ flowing in and through us the branches.

As we have received Christ - so we walk in Him.

Titus 3:5 (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Get this backwards and we create a religion of works-righteousness and it is not the gospel.

The great thing is - we get to do good works because of the life of Christ in us.

Jesus Himself said that it wasn't Him doing the works but His Father in Him - He was doing the good works. Jesus said that He couldn't do anything from His own initiative.

We too are not the ones doing the works but Christ Himself in us. Without Him we can do nothing.

Now.....just to be abundantly clear - this does NOT mean we will not have the fruit of Christ's life in us and not do good works. They are a product of His fruit bearing in us.

 

[BillG]

AGREED!!

Could we hang on to this please?

The persons you're speaking of are TRYING TO GET SAVED BY WORKS.

I've been saying all along that works will not SAVE a person.
OK

Then the person realizes that it's Jesus and the acceptance of HIM that saves. (even Catholics believe this and you know where I live and what did so I know their doctrine well).

Now they're saved. GREAT!!! Now they're trusting in Jesus and will be saved. JUSTIFICATION.

Now comes SANCTIFICATION. This is a cooperative work between man and God. This comes from theology, it's difficult to find it in the bible, except that you WILL find many, many verses that say how we are to OBEY God.

So we are still to OBEY, but now we have the POWER to obey by having the Holy Spirit be by our side --- our paraclete.

This explanation makes it clear that is it also WE who must cooperate with God. He is not going to do EVERYTHING for us.
He did EVERYTHING to save us, now we must do our part.

I used to teach this. It has to be explained like this or people don't understand.
We cannot say that everything we do is through God. We have to say that everything we do is with the help of the Holy Spirit.
I understand what people mean when they say they do everything through God. We are a new creature in Christ, and we work through Him. But it's still US doing the work. We're not little puppets God moves around.

Whadaya think?

I know you are not saying works save.

Sanctification is two way.

We we have to cooperate with God.
Trust me I know this

God asked me once to go and offer to pray for a women who was dying, sad as she was in her 30's.
I only got to know her because her husband owned a corner shop where my company got our tea and coffee from.

Any way God has asked to me offer prayer. They didn't know I was a Christian.

So I am sat in my car as I parked up. Arguing with God, no I can't do it, not gonna do it. He insisted as he insisted I'm throwing my hands up in the air and talking out loud.

Goodness knows what the poor lady in the parking space next to me thought.

Anyway with a grump I went and offered, only to be toled by the husband Don't do it cause if you do she is going to tell you what she thinks of God and tell you where to stick it"

Anyway I went, did because God asked me to, but before I left her husband I asked him, please let her know I'm willing to pray and that God loves her, he said he would"

So my hope is he did and my ultimate hope is "Jesus forgive me"

 

[stonesoffire]

Amen Grace

The reason why I said to look at the word do in greek...is because it says it means to keep guarded in the heart. Out of the heart flows the issues of life. Out of our heart is our actions.