Not By Works

[FranC]

I never called you stupid. Please stop the slander. Thank you.

We can think that we are qualified by God because we do good works but that doesn't necessarily mean that they are Christians. Every religion of the world has as it's core beliefs - good living morals as well as doing good deeds. - none of these mean that Christ is in them.

When believers feel that they must "perform" to qualify for being loved or blessed by God, then we become our own source of strength or grace instead of God.

Slander is if I call YOU stupid --- not if I say you called Me stupid? See.

Yes. I feel I must perform and follow what Jesus told me to follow.

If you don't feel as I do, that's fine. I wouldn't dare to judge you (as Others here seem to enjoy doing - judging Others, I mean)

BTW, are you saying that people in every other religion are lost because jesus is not in their religion?

 

[mailmandan]

BTW, are you saying that people in every other religion are lost because jesus is not in their religion?

Jesus is the ONLY WAY.

 

[Grace777x70]

Slander is if I call YOU stupid --- not if I say you called Me stupid? See.

Yes. I feel I must perform and follow what Jesus told me to follow.

If you don't feel as I do, that's fine. I wouldn't dare to judge you (as Others here seem to enjoy doing - judging Others, I mean)

BTW, are you saying that people in every other religion are lost because jesus is not in their religion?

No Fran...slander is saying that someone has called you stupid when in reality the saying was "religion is stupid". You were not involved in that post - it was to Decon.

If people want to "identify" themselves with religion - that's is between them and their Lord.

Post # 8002 answers the question about Jesus and religions of the world.

Have a great day. I am off to play pickleball.

 

[Ariel82]

Does a bull ever get tired of running through the China shop?

Why would a bull be in a China shop?

There isn't any food there.

 

[Ariel82]

Blue, It seems like you're reading along. We covered this already pages ago.

Let me know if you really want to get into this.
It's not like I have all day to sit here and it's lunchtime here.
I'll be back later.

IF YOU'RE REALLY interested, I will get into why eterrnal salvtion is NOT biblical.

The whole gospel message is Jesus promising eternal life to the born again Children of God....

Sounds like eternal salvation to me.

 

[FranC]

So, people that say slanderously that "you do not obey nor believe the words of Jesus" - that is a fruit of what?

Also - those that obey Christ are those that believe on Him for salvation.

Those who obey Christ also that believe Jesus is not a liar when He says the Holy Spirit will be in you forever. Those who obey Christ are those that believe He is not a liar when He said "I give them eternal life and no one can pluck them out of My hand nor My Father's hand.

Those that obey Christ are those who believe Jesus when He said "None that come to me will I lose". Those that obey Christ are those that believe Him when He said "I will never leave nor forsake you."

Those who obey Jesus are those that believe this scripture below and fulfill the will of the Father.

John 6:39-40 (NASB)
[SUP]39 [/SUP] "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

[SUP]40 [/SUP] "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."


The fruit of Christ's life in us will bear His life being manifested in the love being demonstrated to others. ( good works ) It is a fruit of Him in us - not a requirement for salvation.

I'm not posting anymore verses.
However, you are forgetting all the ones that speak about non-productive branches being cut off and burned.
All the verses that have the words: IF, ENDURE, CONTINUE IN, etc etc in them.

I'm not posting them again because apparently they are never answered. Just throwing verses around produces nothing of value.

You can believe in eternal security if you wish. Just remember that it was not believed by any of the first Christians and was not even a concept until Calvin came along.


vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

These men, whose words you are about to read, were not far removed from the original apostles of our LORD and His Gospel and held fast to His Word – “the apostle’s doctrine.” (Acts 2:42)

“Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.” 2 Peter 1:20-21


“And pray ye without ceasing in behalf of other men; for there is hope of the repentance, that they may attain to God. For ‘cannot he that falls arise again, and he may attain to God.’” (Ignatius of Antioch, To the Ephesians, A.D.110)


“Watch for your life’s sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ye ready, for ye know not the hour in which our Lord cometh. But often shall ye come together, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if ye be not made perfect in the last time.” (Didache, A.D.140)


“Christ shall not die again in behalf of those who now commit sin, for death shall no more have dominion over Him; but the Son shall come in the glory of the Father, requiring from His stewards and dispensers the money which He had entrusted to them, with usury; and from those to whom He had given most shall He demand most. We ought not, therefore, as that presbyter remarks, to be puffed up, nor be severe upon those of old time, but ought ourselves to fear, lest perchance, after [we have come to] the knowledge of Christ, if we do things displeasing to God, we obtain no further forgiveness of sins, but be shut out from His kingdom. And therefore it was that Paul said, ‘For if [God] spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest He also spare not thee, who, when thou wert a wild olive tree, wert grafted into the fatness of the olive tree, and wert made a partaker of its fatness.’” (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 4:27:2 A.D. 180)


“Those who do not obey Him, being disinherited by Him, have ceased to be His sons.” ~ Irenaeus (c. 180)



“God had foreseen… that faith – even after baptism – would be endangered. He saw that most persons – after obtaining salvation – would be lost again, by soiling the wedding dress, by failing to provide oil for their torches.” ~ Tertullian (c. 213)

 

[FranC]

The whole gospel message is Jesus promising eternal life to the born again Children of God....

Sounds like eternal salvation to me.

Please read post 8006.

I don't make up doctrine.
Early Church theologians did.
Then Calvin came along 1,500 years later.
What he preached tickled the ears of many.

You're free to believe who you will.

 

[FranC]

Jesus is the ONLY WAY.

So most of the billions of people in the world are going to hell and it's up to YOU to make that determination?

 

[FranC]

Originally Posted by Grace777x70

It's ironic we grace lovers that are supposed to love sinning so much are the ones that say that malice and the slandering of others in the body of Christ is just like living a homosexual lifestyle - in that it is sinning.

They are all works of the flesh and in the same lists together. They all bring destruction of some sort to us while on this earth.

go figure eh?....Religion is just so stupid!

Quote:



Religion are those beliefs that think it is ok to slander others in the body of Christ and that they are NOT like those filthy homosexuals in my own malice and slandering.

Religion beliefs are those that slanderously accuse others and call them names such as - a heretic, demonic, lovers of sinning, haters of God's word, haters of those that walk righteously...and other garbage.

Religion shows it's ugly head when it then with the same mouth says "We are to walk righteously and with purity of heart."

James 3:8-10 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But no one can tame the tongue; it is a restless evil and full of deadly poison.

[SUP]9 [/SUP] With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God;

[SUP]10 [/SUP] from the same mouth come both blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be this way.


That is why religion itself is stupid and foolish. It makes people do stupid things and believe stupid things.

Galatians 3:3 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Those reading along can judge for themselves WHO is doing the name-calling.

No reason to comment further.

 

[PennEd]

Slander is if I call YOU stupid --- not if I say you called Me stupid? See.

Yes. I feel I must perform and follow what Jesus told me to follow.

If you don't feel as I do, that's fine. I wouldn't dare to judge you (as Others here seem to enjoy doing - judging Others, I mean)

BTW, are you saying that people in every other religion are lost because jesus is not in their religion?

Ummm...... YEAH! That's EXACTLY what we are saying!
Those in other religions that don't accept Jesus as Lord and Savior, and don't believe He rose from the grave, are LOST!

 

[PeterJens]

those that obey Christ are those that believe on Him for salvation.

those that obey Christ are those that believe on Him for salvation.

This sentence is connecting to different things, obedience and belief.
We believe so we obey and follow, but here obedience is attempted
to be fulfilled only in belief and not action. This is not what Christ said.

obey
ə(ʊ)ˈbeɪ/Submit
verb
submit to the authority of (someone) or comply with (a law).
"I always obey my father"
synonyms: do what someone says, take/accept orders from, carry out/follow the orders of, be dutiful to, heed; More
carry out (a command or instruction).
"the officer was convicted for refusing to obey orders"
synonyms: carry out, perform, act on, execute, discharge, put into effect, implement, fulfil, meet
"the officer was convicted for refusing to obey an order"
behave in accordance with (a general principle, natural law, etc.).
"the universe was complex but it obeyed certain rules"


Jesus said
"You are my friends if you do what I command."
John 15:14

Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching
John 14:23

Peter chooses between God and man.
We must obey God rather than human beings!
Acts 5:29

Now obeying Christ is doing what he said.
I wonder why there is this desire to deny action unless it is this action which
is the stumbling block, because they cannot explain why they cannot love from
the heart others. Being religious is fine, singing songs etc. but actually following
Christ and being like Him maybe is going too far, lol.

 

[gb9]

those that obey Christ are those that believe on Him for salvation.

This sentence is connecting to different things, obedience and belief.
We believe so we obey and follow, but here obedience is attempted
to be fulfilled only in belief and not action. This is not what Christ said.

obey
ə(ʊ)ˈbeɪ/Submit
verb
submit to the authority of (someone) or comply with (a law).
"I always obey my father"
synonyms: do what someone says, take/accept orders from, carry out/follow the orders of, be dutiful to, heed; More
carry out (a command or instruction).
"the officer was convicted for refusing to obey orders"
synonyms: carry out, perform, act on, execute, discharge, put into effect, implement, fulfil, meet
"the officer was convicted for refusing to obey an order"
behave in accordance with (a general principle, natural law, etc.).
"the universe was complex but it obeyed certain rules"


Jesus said
"You are my friends if you do what I command."
John 15:14

Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching
John 14:23

Peter chooses between God and man.
We must obey God rather than human beings!
Acts 5:29

Now obeying Christ is doing what he said.
I wonder why there is this desire to deny action unless it is this action which
is the stumbling block, because they cannot explain why they cannot love from
the heart others. Being religious is fine, singing songs etc. but actually following
Christ and being like Him maybe is going too far, lol.

in Acts chapter 5, Peter was speaking to the religious leaders who were ordering them not to preach Christ. a little context.

do you and fran need some lessons in hermeneutics?? having points, and just randomly picking out verses to back up those points is mis-use of God's Word.

 

[mailmandan]

So most of the billions of people in the world are going to hell and it's up to YOU to make that determination?

What did Jesus say about many and few in Matthew 7:13-14?

 

[PeterJens]

in Acts chapter 5, Peter was speaking to the religious leaders who were ordering them not to preach Christ. a little context.

do you and fran need some lessons in hermeneutics?? having points, and just randomly picking out verses to back up those points is mis-use of God's Word.

gb9 - What are you referring to? Is obedience a problem for you? Just asking.

 

[PeterJens]

So most of the billions of people in the world are going to hell and it's up to YOU to make that determination?

The religions of the world vary tremendously, but they do not have Christ and the Holy Spirit.
It is only in communion with Christ and the Holy Spirit can we walk pleasingly before the Lord.

So everyone who does not walk in fellowship with God is doomed to judgement.
People have though come to faith in very strange situations with no knowledge of
scripture, so I am not one to rule out Gods revelation to anyone.

 

[gb9]

gb9 - What are you referring to? Is obedience a problem for you? Just asking.

my goal each day is to obey. but I do not achieve that goal every day. neither do you, or anyone else. I just tell the truth and admit it. is telling the truth a problem for you?

 

[PeterJens]

my goal each day is to obey. but I do not achieve that goal every day. neither do you, or anyone else. I just tell the truth and admit it. is telling the truth a problem for you?

I was referring to your comment about hermeneutics. It was just a comment without further
explanation. I love hermeneutics, especially when a linguist can show the implied meaning is
stronger in the original language using it linguistic emphasis etc. The bible is hard because there
as so many connected ideas which flow once it all fits together. For instance the word repent
is deep is emotional response - Grieve, mourn and wail.

Some think laughter and joy is the response but actually it should be - change your laughter to
mourning and your joy to gloom.

This does not mean there are no times of joy and praise, but sin is a serious issue, worthy of Hell,
yet some regard it to be ignored, not explored or understood, not worked through or resolved,
just ignored like a done deal, so it can rot the soul like a living corpse.

So I praise the Lord that His word comes clearer the more we talk about it.

 

[blue_ladybug]

Sorry, Fran, but don't try to indoctrinate me with your false beliefs. Eternal salvation/ security ARE biblical.. You even posted verses PROVING that it's biblical. LOL

I believe in eternal salvation. I also believe that works don't save us, no matter how many we do. YOU don't believe either one of these things, you believe that we CAN lose salvation if we don't do works, and you believe that we don't have eternal salvation.

Sooo, then what did Jesus die for, if not to save us from our sins, and to save our souls from eternal damnation?!! Did He suffer on the cross just to get His jollies? Heck no!!!!!!!!!!!!! He died so that we would have ETERNAL SALVATION.. I'm sorry, but you don't seem to know Jesus OR His Word very well, since you don't believe much of the crucial stuff He mentions about salvation and having eternal life.. You posted verse after verse, that said NOTHING about doing works for salvation, THEN you post a verse that CLEARLY mentions what we have to do to have eternal life..

But yet you say that eternal salvation isn't biblical.. :/ Maybe you're incapable of believing God's promises. I don't know. What I DO know is that I'm weary of debating this stuff with you..

Blue, It seems like you're reading along. We covered this already pages ago.

Let me know if you really want to get into this.
It's not like I have all day to sit here and it's lunchtime here.
I'll be back later.

IF YOU'RE REALLY interested, I will get into why eterrnal salvtion is NOT biblical.

 

[gb9]

I was referring to your comment about hermeneutics. It was just a comment without further
explanation. I love hermeneutics, especially when a linguist can show the implied meaning is
stronger in the original language using it linguistic emphasis etc. The bible is hard because there
as so many connected ideas which flow once it all fits together. For instance the word repent
is deep is emotional response - Grieve, mourn and wail.

Some think laughter and joy is the response but actually it should be - change your laughter to
mourning and your joy to gloom.

This does not mean there are no times of joy and praise, but sin is a serious issue, worthy of Hell,
yet some regard it to be ignored, not explored or understood, not worked through or resolved,
just ignored like a done deal, so it can rot the soul like a living corpse.

So I praise the Lord that His word comes clearer the more we talk about it.

see, here is the thing- I still sin, you still sin, every person on earth sins. so you have not resolved and worked through sin. not true. now have you and I and every other believer worked through certain sins? yes. moved past all sin? no

can you speak truth and say this? I have twice now.

 

[Ariel82]

I'm not posting anymore verses.
However, you are forgetting all the ones that speak about non-productive branches being cut off and burned.
All the verses that have the words: IF, ENDURE, CONTINUE IN, etc etc in them.

I'm not posting them again because apparently they are never answered. Just throwing verses around produces nothing of value.

You can believe in eternal security if you wish. Just remember that it was not believed by any of the first Christians and was not even a concept until Calvin came along.


vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

These men, whose words you are about to read, were not far removed from the original apostles of our LORD and His Gospel and held fast to His Word – “the apostle’s doctrine.” (Acts 2:42)

“Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.” 2 Peter 1:20-21


“And pray ye without ceasing in behalf of other men; for there is hope of the repentance, that they may attain to God. For ‘cannot he that falls arise again, and he may attain to God.’” (Ignatius of Antioch, To the Ephesians, A.D.110)

]

they never "obtained God." Never were born again

]

..
“Watch for your life’s sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ye ready, for ye know not the hour in which our Lord cometh. But often shall ye come together, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if ye be not made perfect in the last time.” (Didache, A.D.140) ]

your life is worthless if Jesus doesn't accept you..."if ye be not made perfect" not "if you don't make yourself perfect" but if Jesus doesn't make you perfect and gives you a resurrected body.

]

“Christ shall not die again in behalf of those who now commit sin, for death shall no more have dominion over Him; but the Son shall come in the glory of the Father, requiring from His stewards and dispensers the money which He had entrusted to them, with usury; and from those to whom He had given most shall He demand most. We ought not, therefore, as that presbyter remarks, to be puffed up, nor be severe upon those of old time, but ought ourselves to fear, lest perchance, after [we have come to] the knowledge of Christ, if we do things displeasing to God, we obtain no further forgiveness of sins, but be shut out from His kingdom. And therefore it was that Paul said, ‘For if [God] spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest He also spare not thee, who, when thou wert a wild olive tree, wert grafted into the fatness of the olive tree, and wert made a partaker of its fatness.’” (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 4:27:2 A.D. 180)]

yep and Augustine answered him..fyi, he spoke of perseverance of saints long before Calvin was ever born.

]

“Those who do not obey Him, being disinherited by Him, have ceased to be His sons.” ~ Irenaeus (c. 180)
]

again I believe Irenaeus is a heretic.

]

“God had foreseen… that faith – even after baptism – would be endangered. He saw that most persons – after obtaining salvation – would be lost again, by soiling the wedding dress, by failing to provide oil for their torches.” ~ Tertullian (c. 213)

Water baptism or Holy spirit baptism?