Not By Works

[FranC]

That is exactly what the blindfold of accepting a false doctrine does sister. the gog teaches blaitantly that only Jesus words that are conditionless such as " the owrk of God is this, to believe in the One He has sent" <<those things are for christians, but when Jesus in whom that verse is saying believe in Him, says " do this orthis or that" which you understand like myself and others He is all about directing and teaching us, then the gog teaches thats "the law of moses and you died to it" , only whats after the cross is for you even in light of the great commission matt 28:18-20, clearly says go into all the world and teach them to obey whatsoever i have commended you <<<this statement is made after the "cross" but still its not acceptable if there smething meant to do.

to really understand the other side of this, you have to see the teaching they are coming from from such as paul ellis and joseph prince, among many others today. its gone further than calvin even did. much further than billy graham. its outright denial of the gospel. Have you noticed its " the gospel of the grace of christ" <<it even removes Jesus name from its title. based on the way paul spoke, which we are warned of by Peter. There is proper order the 4 gospels as you know already have to be the foundation in order to understand what the apostles are even saying. Paul Just was educated different so His words are different, but His teachings are the same.

its just blindness because the Light is found in the true Gospel. His word is the light so the gog preachers have to sell the "real truth" for 19.95 and Jesus doesnt win popularity contests when you know His word, so they omit those things people dont like to Hear such as " you cannot serve both God and money" so the book labels it Law. someone who holds grudges doesnt want to Hear " if you forgive men when they sin against you, your father will forgive you, but if you dont, he wont" so, they call it law even thought none of these teachings are in the Law of moses, they make is seem like the gospel changed and its all about exalting the word grace.

I happen to watch Joseph Prince from time to time and find him to be a very good teacher.
Interestingly, he does repeat many times that what he teaches does not mean one could feel free to sin.

Why would he feel it necessary to repeat this?
Because the things he says and the way he preaches MAKES IT SEEM AS THOUGH we could do whatever we want to and it would be OK.

If he preached properly he would not have to speak this disclaimer on a continuous basis.
The very fact that he DOES have to say it, shows that something is wrong in how he's presenting the gospel.
As we know, this is known as hyper-grace. Grace is normal for God, hype-grace is not biblical.

I also agree with you regarding the progression of teaching.
JESUS comes first. (you'd think He was just a bystander!)
The Apostles come second.
I dare say Paul would come third.

This does not mean I have less respect for Paul. But he did NOT spend over 3 years with Jesus as the Apostles did.
He formulated the theology in Romans, but, as you said, he used a Language that causes problems.

But does it really? Or do people just pick and choose?
We love to post Romans, but many are not too interested in posting the later chapters of Romans because Paul does state that we are to BE and to DO. (chapters 12, 14, 15, 16)

He's trying to explain that we still must obey the commandments, but we now have a different way of doing this.
This is by Grace and not by Law. But the Law must still be obeyed. Jesus Himself said it is not abolished.

Some on this thread say that they follow the Law because they WANT to not because they HAVE to...and herein lies the problem. Although it's true that love makes you WANT to follow Jesus, it's not correct to say that this is WHY we have to follow it, but HOW we follow it.

So. Some undersand and some don't. I call it cheap grace. it cheapens what Jesus did for us. It makes those reading along believe that nothing is required from us, when in reality MUCH is required from us.
To whom much is given, much will be expected. Luke 12:48

 

[mailmandan]

It's very imaginative how you explain words that are as clear as day.

I certainly hope that anyone reading along does not think they have to KNOW GREEK to be able to understand the New Testament. I certainly hope they continue to read it with an open heart and hear what Jesus had to say during His ministry.

BTW, do you have a Ph.D. after your name?

I don't need a PH.D to understand God's Word (1 Corinthians 2:11-14).

And I suppose 2 Peter 2:20-22 is speaking about Teachers, and has nothing to do with us. I suppose Teachers could fall away and go back into the world system, but not YOU or anyone esle that is not a teacher.

These were false teachers in 2 Peter 2. Read about their destructive doctrines in verses 1-3; their doom in verses 4-11; the depravity of these false teachers in verses 12-17; and the deception of these false teachers in verses 18-22. Those who are truly born of God have received a new nature, a divine nature 2 Peter 1:4), and they have new and different appetites and desires. They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than just cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20. *These cleaned up on the outside dogs and pigs were never sheep.

So when Jesus is speaking in Mathew 7:13-14 about entering in the wide gate or the narrow gate, He is speaking to everyone, but in 2 peter 2:20 Paul is addressing only Teachers.

In Matthew 7:13-14, Jesus clearly said - "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14 For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it." This is a general statement and is not limited to the Jews and it's not the other way around for the Gentiles. Paul is describing false teachers in 2 Peter 2:20 (dogs, pigs) and is not giving a description of believers/sheep.

Compare 2 Peter 1:4 - "partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption - Strongs #5356 that is in the world through lust" with 2 Peter 2:20 - with they escaped the pollutions - Strongs #3356 (different Greek word) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, yet they are again entangled therein, and overcome. *Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention them being "partakers of the divine nature.

Corruption (Strong's #5356) (to shrivel or wither, spoil , ruin , deprave, corrupt , defile, to destroy by means of corrupting, to spoil as does milk). Corruption - describes decomposition or rotting of an organism and the accompanying stench. The utter depravity of the fallen flesh and the resultant moral decomposition of the world opposed to God is driven by it sinful lusts or evil desires. Internal corruption.

Pollutions/Defilements (Strong's #3393) ("pollutions", "filthy things", "contaminations", "world's filth") describes the state of being tainted or stained by evil and refers to impurity, impure, tainted, defilement, foulness or pollution. Pollutions/Defilement refers to what is on the outside (2 Peter 2:20). But genuine believers have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust (2 Peter 1:4).

*Corruption is deeper than pollutions/defilements on the outside: it is decay on the inside.

Having the knowledge of Jesus Christ does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge. The latter end is worse than the beginning for these men because rejecting this knowledge which brings greater light will make them more accountable at the judgment.

Yes. This is all very interesting. Did you attend special classes to learn how to twist scripture around to suit your needs?

No, that class is called Roman Catholicism 101.

Did you not learn that you MUST apply the same criteria to ALL scripture and not change it as you go along?

Unfortunately, I can see that the Roman Catholic church has really done a number on you.

Do you think Jesus died so you could practice your cheap grace?

I don't practice cheap grace and I also don't teach salvation by works. We are saved by grace through faith, not works, created in Christ Jesus FOR good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). That is the proper balance. Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed.

 

[followjesus]

No comments on this scripture?

1For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.


the 4 gospels, Jesus birth as promised in ot, teachings as promised in ot, death as promised in ot, resurrection as promised in ot, ascention as promised in ot. the 4 gospels are the foundation He laid.

 

[Grace777x70]

I happen to watch Joseph Prince from time to time and find him to be a very good teacher.
Interestingly, he does repeat many times that what he teaches does not mean one could feel free to sin.

Why would he feel it necessary to repeat this?
Because the things he says and the way he preaches MAKES IT SEEM AS THOUGH we could do whatever we want to and it would be OK.

If he preached properly he would not have to speak this disclaimer on a continuous basis.
The very fact that he DOES have to say it, shows that something is wrong in how he's presenting the gospel.
As we know, this is known as hyper-grace. Grace is normal for God, hype-grace is not biblical.

I also agree with you regarding the progression of teaching.
JESUS comes first. (you'd think He was just a bystander!)
The Apostles come second.
I dare say Paul would come third.

This does not mean I have less respect for Paul. But he did NOT spend over 3 years with Jesus as the Apostles did.
He formulated the theology in Romans, but, as you said, he used a Language that causes problems.

But does it really? Or do people just pick and choose?
We love to post Romans, but many are not too interested in posting the later chapters of Romans because Paul does state that we are to BE and to DO. (chapters 12, 14, 15, 16)

He's trying to explain that we still must obey the commandments, but we now have a different way of doing this.
This is by Grace and not by Law. But the Law must still be obeyed. Jesus Himself said it is not abolished.

Some on this thread say that they follow the Law because they WANT to not because they HAVE to...and herein lies the problem. Although it's true that love makes you WANT to follow Jesus, it's not correct to say that this is WHY we have to follow it, but HOW we follow it.

So. Some undersand and some don't. I call it cheap grace. it cheapens what Jesus did for us. It makes those reading along believe that nothing is required from us, when in reality MUCH is required from us.
To whom much is given, much will be expected. Luke 12:48

There is an answer to what he must keep saying that being under grace gives you the power to stop sinning. It's a sign that he is teaching the true gospel of grace - which is Christ Himself.

If no one says "What?..are you saying people can just go and sin all we want now because of grace?" ..if no one says that - then you are not preaching the gospel of the grace of Christ.

No one is saying to go out and sin all you want now because of grace but people should be accusing you of saying that if you are really preaching the same gospel that Paul preached. He was continuously slandered with this same accusation. In 4x times alone in Romans Paul had to come against those that were accusing Paul of being antinomian.

The natural religious mind of man thinks that people are saying it's ok to sin all you want when they hear the true gospel of grace. This truth of the grace of God offends us because of their religious beliefs passed on from some of our church teachings and traditions.

The grace of God teaches us how to live godly in this present world as Titus 2:11-12.

Sin is stupid and against our new nature in Christ which is created in righteousness and holiness. Sin is deceitful and will destroy us on this earth as well as those we love and ruins our witness for the Lord. But sin does not take away our eternal life in Christ. Our spirit is safe in Christ because we are in Him and it is His finished work that brings eternal salvation to us.

Make no mistake about it..the gospel of the grace of Christ is scandalous.

 

[FranC]

I don't need a PH.D to understand God's Word (1 Corinthians 2:11-14).

These were false teachers in 2 Peter 2. Read about their destructive doctrines in verses 1-3; their doom in verses 4-11; the depravity of these false teachers in verses 12-17; and the deception of these false teachers in verses 18-22. Those who are truly born of God have received a new nature, a divine nature 2 Peter 1:4), and they have new and different appetites and desires. They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than just cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20. *These cleaned up on the outside dogs and pigs were never sheep.

In Matthew 7:13-14, Jesus clearly said - "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14 For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it." This is a general statement and is not limited to the Jews and it's not the other way around for the Gentiles. Paul is describing false teachers in 2 Peter 2:20 (dogs, pigs) and is not giving a description of believers/sheep.

Compare 2 Peter 1:4 - "partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption - Strongs #5356 that is in the world through lust" with 2 Peter 2:20 - with they escaped the pollutions - Strongs #3356 (different Greek word) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, yet they are again entangled therein, and overcome. *Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention them being "partakers of the divine nature.

Corruption (Strong's #5356) (to shrivel or wither, spoil , ruin , deprave, corrupt , defile, to destroy by means of corrupting, to spoil as does milk). Corruption - describes decomposition or rotting of an organism and the accompanying stench. The utter depravity of the fallen flesh and the resultant moral decomposition of the world opposed to God is driven by it sinful lusts or evil desires. Internal corruption.

Pollutions/Defilements (Strong's #3393) ("pollutions", "filthy things", "contaminations", "world's filth") describes the state of being tainted or stained by evil and refers to impurity, impure, tainted, defilement, foulness or pollution. Pollutions/Defilement refers to what is on the outside (2 Peter 2:20). But genuine believers have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust (2 Peter 1:4).

*Corruption is deeper than pollutions/defilements on the outside: it is decay on the inside.

Having the knowledge of Jesus Christ does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge. The latter end is worse than the beginning for these men because rejecting this knowledge which brings greater light will make them more accountable at the judgment.

No, that class is called Roman Catholicism 101.

Unfortunately, I can see that the Roman Catholic church has really done a number on you.

I don't practice cheap grace and I also don't teach salvation by works. We are saved by grace through faith, not works, created in Christ Jesus FOR good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). That is the proper balance. Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed.

1. I thought you had a Ph.D. in Greek. Guess not. So you know about as much as I do. So why keep bringing it up?

2. 2 Peter 2:20-22 They were false Teachers. So in Mathew 7 Jesus is speaking to ALL, but we only apply 2 Peter 2:20 to Teachers.

Interesting concept. What difference does it make who it's speaking about?
They were LOST
They were SAVED
They were LOST

You don't even have to know §Greek. Just read it, But you have to have an open mind.

3. Nice to have so many Greek lessons from you. Explaining what pollution means, and other words. Do you not know English??

4. So the same criteria is not to be applied to all scripture? it changes according to your liking? Which theology school did YOU go to?

5. There is no "BALANCE". GOD makes the rules. Not YOU.

 

[MattforJesus]

2Ti 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
2Ti 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

The crown of righteousness is given to all who love Jesus' appearing,so it is given to all the saints,and not a reward to some,and not to others,and also it is the crown of righteousness,so how can some not get it if all the saints are to be righteous,which the Bible says,he who does not do righteousness is not of God.

So the crown of righteousness is given to all the saints,for there will not be any person with Jesus who did not love righteousness.

1Co 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
1Co 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
1Co 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

All the saints will receive an incorruptible crown,for there will not be any corrupt saints with Jesus.

Jas 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Jas 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

The crown of life is given to all who love Jesus,so all the saints will receive the crown of life,for there will not be any person with Jesus who does not love Him.

The crowns are not a reward to some,and not to others,but are given to all the saints.

There will not be an angel in heaven say,Welcome all you saints to your first day in heaven.All saints who love Jesus,loved His apprearing,and was incorruptible,report to the west wing,and all you saints that did not love Jesus,did not love His apprearing,and were corruptible,report to the east wing,but do not fret,for you still have eternal life,despite you not loving Jesus.

The crowns are given to all the saints,and not rewards for some,and not others.

 

[FranC]

There is an answer to what he must keep saying that being under grace gives you the power to stop sinning. It's a sign that he is teaching the true gospel of grace - which is Christ Himself.

If no one says "What?..are you saying people can just go and sin all we want now because of grace?" ..if no one says that - then you are not preaching the gospel of the grace of Christ.

No one is saying to go out and sin all you want now because of grace but people should be accusing you of saying that if you are really preaching the same gospel that Paul preached. He was continuously slandered with this same accusation. In 4x times alone in Romans Paul had to come against those that were accusing Paul of being antinomian.

The grace of God teaches us how to live godly in this present world as Titus 2:11-12.

Sin is stupid and against our new nature in Christ which is created in righteousness and holiness. Sin is deceitful and will destroy us on this earth as well as those we love and ruins our witness for the Lord. But sin does not take away our eternal life in Christ. Our spirit is safe in Christ because we are in Him and it is His finished work that brings eternal salvation to us.

Make no mistake about it..the gospel of the grace of Christ is scandalous.

NO no no.

You'll have to read my post again.
Really read it this time.

 

[limey410]

Jesus talking about the sheep are "descriptions" of what Christians do because they are one with Christ. They don't do these things to be saved in the end. It's a description of the life of Christ manifesting in them in some form.

The goats are unbelievers in Christ.

Good works does not in any form or shape save someone. For true Christians they are simply a by-product of the life of Christ in us.

There are thousands of good moral living - good deeds doing - people in many religions in the world and none of them turn into a sheep because of the good works they do. We become a sheep by believing Christ.

Get this backwards and we end up creating a works-based - works-righteousness religion that tries to mimic the life of Christ.

Yes and Amen

 

[FranC]

My question was,his motive in posting.
.I don't believe those verses say what he wants them to say. If he is trying to use them to show you can lose your salvation.

Jesus said branches that do not produce good fruit will be cut off and burned.
I don't know how much clearer it could be.

Mathew 7:19
Romans 11:20-22

 

[Grace777x70]

1For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.


the 4 gospels, Jesus birth as promised in ot, teachings as promised in ot, death as promised in ot, resurrection as promised in ot, ascention as promised in ot. the 4 gospels are the foundation He laid.

Jesus said to the disciples who traveled with Him for 3 years "I have many things to tell you but you are unable to bear it - but the Holy Spirit will reveal the things of the Lord Jesus Christ to us.

The proclamation of Christ produces the profession of Christ, but the explanation of Christ is what produces the experience of Christ.

Believers can never fully enjoy the triumph of the gospel and express Christ in this world victoriously until there has been an explanation and exposition of the vivid details of the redemptive work of Christ that has gained a foothold in our renewed minds.

The 4 gospels were eyewitness accounts of the historical events in the life and ministry of our Lord Jesus Christ. Christianity is based on the veracity of these events as having occurred in real time, in all historicity and specificity.

Nevertheless it is the unveiling of the spiritual realities of these events that relates to the believer in Christ. This is found in the revelation that the Lord Jesus Christ gave to the apostle Paul.

The 4 gospels are the proclamation of the gospel. They disclose to us what men saw. Acts of the apostles is the demonstration of the gospel, but it is Paul's letters which give us an explanation of the gospel. It is the Pauline Epistles that are the constitution of this church age.

Paul's epistles explain what happened from the cross, death, burial, quickening and resurrection to the being seated at the right hand of the Father. Without these epistles we would have no idea what Jesus our Lord actually accomplished for us.

Paul was taught by Jesus Christ Himself to explain His gospel = to reveal the mystery that was hidden in God until it was revealed by Christ to Paul. The mystery being Christ Himself and the riches of that glory is that Christ is in us and we are in Him!

 

[dcontroversal]

Does it make you feel proud not to be a worker?
You have kids?
Do you teach them that they don't have to do anything for you because you love them?

Fran..this is idiotic......and proves you neither listen nor comprehend what is said.....and while I am there.....to label grace as cheap is a slap in the face to Jesus.....you should go read and pay attention..serious....for claiming a knowledge of English you seem to have no ability to understand what is said in English....no one has said nor implied that we sit on our butts and do nothing.....the contention is and has always been that WORKS DO NOT SAVE OR KEEP SAVED.....and to say that they do = a false gospel with no power to save.....like it or not and regardless of your ability to avknowledge it!

 

[mailmandan]

1. I thought you had a Ph.D. in Greek. Guess not. So you know about as much as I do. So why keep bringing it up?

2. 2 Peter 2:20-22 They were false Teachers. So in Mathew 7 Jesus is speaking to ALL, but we only apply 2 Peter 2:20 to Teachers.

Interesting concept. What difference does it make who it's speaking about?
They were LOST
They were SAVED
They were LOST

You don't even have to know §Greek. Just read it, But you have to have an open mind.

3. Nice to have so many Greek lessons from you. Explaining what pollution means, and other words. Do you not know English??

4. So the same criteria is not to be applied to all scripture? it changes according to your liking? Which theology school did YOU go to?

5. There is no "BALANCE". GOD makes the rules. Not YOU.

Your sarcasm is not winning you any points at all. You are completely mixed up (just like so many Roman Catholics) and I'm tired of wasting my time with you.

 

[FranC]

I will post this one more time so that there can be no more mis-representing of what is being said about works. It just baffles my mind how people can say the complete opposite of what you are saying no matter how many times you say it.

I don't chafe at the term "our doing". We do participate in what God is doing in and through us.

What I would chafe at is the notion that we put "the doing" from ourselves by self-effort and not from the life of Christ in us. It's all a matter of where this "work originates" from - our flesh or from our inner man in Christ.

Outwardly they can look the same. I know that only God that looks on our heart can answer that question but it is subtle difference between works-based righteousness and faith-based righteousness.

Another term I use a lot that may throw some off is that I say we are to "rest" in the finished work of Christ. The word "rest" can bring the connotations that we do nothing which is not the truth. It's the exact opposite.

I won't speak for the others but as far as works or fruit go from a believer in Christ - here is what I believe when considering John Chapter 15 and the "works/fruit" of a believer.

Jesus is the Vine - we are the branches. The branch bears fruit..it does not produce it.

Without Him we can do nothing. We are to remain/abide/rest in the Lord - abide/remain/rest in the Lord and what He has done for us in His finished work. John 15

The life of the Vine supplies the "sap"needed for the bearing of fruit but it is His fruit that is produced in us.

Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is not a lazy passive existence where we do nothing as some like to accuse others of believing.

When we know that God has already provided everything we need and we access His wisdom, provision, strength by faith - we'll be governed by the Holy Spirit in a highly strategic and active life.

Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is not an inactive lifestyle. It's a Spirit-led lifestyle where we flow in good works ( His fruit bearing in us ) that God had planned for us all along.

Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our obedience in action.

Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our warfare.

Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our faith in action. - we are fighting the good fight of faith

Hebrews 4:10-11 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.

[SUP]11 [/SUP] Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.

There is a vast difference between "us" doing things and the Lord doing things through and in us.

We can do things in our own flesh like Abraham tried to fulfill the will of God by creating an Ishmael or wait for the Lord to work through us to produce the child of promise - Isaac. Galatians 4:22-24, 30

Psalm 127:1 (NASB)

Unless the LORD builds the house, They labor in vain who build it; Unless the LORD guards the city, The watchman keeps awake in vain.

And I will once again repeat simply:

If it's not US doing our own works with the help of the Holy Spirit,
but it's JESUS working THROUGH us...

That means that when we sin, it's JESUS who fails because you say it's HIM who is donig the working.

So if it's Jesus doing everything for us, why do we have a problem with the flesh? Why do we sin?
Isn't Jesus working properly through us?

Don't you see how this sounds??

it's theologically incorrect.
If you believe we are puppets and God is manipulating us, then you could speak as you do.
If you believe we have free will, you cannot say what you say above. It does not make sense.

Paul said we are to work out our own salvation, he didn't say that God has already done everything for us.
Why would he say this if he didn't mean it?
Philippians 2:12

 

[dcontroversal]

Jesus said branches that do not produce good fruit will be cut off and burned.
I don't know how much clearer it could be.

Mathew 7:19
Romans 11:20-22

So what.....a tree takes maturity and growth to produce and 1 piece of fruit is sufficient.....I have joy in Christ...oooooppppsss fruit of the spirit.............!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[FranC]

So what.....a tree takes maturity and growth to produce and 1 piece of fruit is sufficient.....I have joy in Christ...oooooppppsss fruit of the spirit.............!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What if you don't produce good fruit?
Are YOU producing good fruit here?

 

[FranC]

Your sarcasm is not winning you any points at all. You are completely mixed up (just like so many Roman Catholics) and I'm tired of wasting my time with you.

1. I'm not a Roman Catholic. Sorry.

2. I'm not here to win any points. I have all the points I need from God.

3. Good bye.

 

[mailmandan]

So what.....a tree takes maturity and growth to produce and 1 piece of fruit is sufficient.....I have joy in Christ...oooooppppsss fruit of the spirit.............!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Some people just don't know how to rightly divide the word of truth. In John 15, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit (vs. 2) but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.

When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13).

John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine, (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet fully established.

So in John 15, we see two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit and the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, He neither elected them, nor saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off.

 

[FranC]

Fran..this is idiotic......and proves you neither listen nor comprehend what is said.....and while I am there.....to label grace as cheap is a slap in the face to Jesus.....you should go read and pay attention..serious....for claiming a knowledge of English you seem to have no ability to understand what is said in English....no one has said nor implied that we sit on our butts and do nothing.....the contention is and has always been that WORKS DO NOT SAVE OR KEEP SAVED.....and to say that they do = a false gospel with no power to save.....like it or not and regardless of your ability to avknowledge it!

Instead of worrying about my capacity to understand English,
why don't you post some scripture?
It should state how we are not required to do any works after being saved.
Thanks.

 

[dcontroversal]

Your sarcasm is not winning you any points at all. You are completely mixed up (just like so many Roman Catholics) and I'm tired of wasting my time with you.

Amen to that one.....a perpetual merry go round of contradictions....

 

[dcontroversal]

Instead of worrying about my capacity to understand English,
why don't you post some scripture?
It should state how we are not required to do any works after being saved.
Thanks.

now your just twisting and being deceptive like you always do....nothing but fluff from you....go email your buddy with a sob story so he can message me behind the scenes again......!