Not By Works

[Grace777x70]

When you STOP believing in the name of Jesus.

BELIEVE is present tense. One must believe till the end to be saved.

I believe scripture proves to be the complete opposite of this in the sense that it seems you are trying to make it out to be. Many have written about this from different angles. I will post what I believe the scriptures say again about this.

True biblical belief is of the heart - not in the head or mind. God looks on the heart - man look on the outward appearance. We can get our thinking messed up but our spirits are safe with the Lord for He has said that He will never leave us nor forsake us.

He said that the Holy Spirit will be in us forever. John 14:16

Getting "saved" is simple and it is not cheap - it cost our Lord His life and the shedding of His blood to obtain an eternal redemption for us. Heb 9:12


Romans 10:9-10 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

[SUP]10 [/SUP] for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

The process is simple too.

1) we hear the message of Christ - the gospel of our salvation in Him

2) we believe the message from our hearts

3) we were sealed with the Holy Spirit

( Jesus said in John 14:16 that the Holy Spirit will be with us and in us forever - now was Jesus lying or is he like a "bait and switch" car salesman that has "fine print" which He doesn't talk about )

Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, = 1)

the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, = 2) you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, = 3)


you were sealed = aorist indicative tense / passive voice = a one time event in the past that remains as true.

Passive voice = the sealing was not done by us but by an outside force - the Holy Spirit Himself.

 

[Ariel82]

These verses show that God promises eternal security to those whose foundation is in Christ.

Would anyone who says you must do good works to be saved like to comment on these verses?

Without the Gospel: that Jesus died upon the cross for the remission of sins, reasurected and ascended into Heaven. He sends the Holy Spirit so that we are sealed and are born again as beloved children of God.

With out the gospel as foundation,you are building your house on sinking sand. No matter how much gol, silver or precious gems you use, it will not stand.

However if your foundation is Christ, even if you build with hay and stubble and it all gets burnt up. You will,be saved from the fire.

1 Corinthians 3
10According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilledb master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. 11For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

***gonna put these verses in my signature...eventually I will get a response. Gtg

God bless and keep y'all.

 

[blue_ladybug]

You're not dumb, Fran. You're blind because the RCC has so much influence on you.

And I AM saved, because I DO believe in God, and I trust Him when He says that we DO have eternal salvation..

What got me is the fact that you posted a verse that states we DO have eternal salvation, even though you said you DON'T believe in eternal salvation. SO pray tell, how am I supposed to take anything else you say, seriously??

I mean, when you post something that proves you wrong, how nonsensical is that?

Don't feel bad Blue.
You have nothing to teach me.
Do I sound dumb or something?

Jesus died so you could be saved if you BELIEVE in Him.
BELIEVE is present tense.
Ask Grace and MMD. They know all about the present tense and maybe I don't.

 

[blue_ladybug]

It's not gossip. It is the truth that YOU put out on here, that I was just re-iterating to make a point to Ariel that to engage with people who refuse to listen, is futile..

Oh. And it IS gossip.

Read your post above to Ariel.

You're doing it again!

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Depends what do you believe the Gospel is?

i believe all of us deserve hell for our sins
God is righteous

and by his mercy he sent Jesus to pay the price for our sin

i believe he calls all of us and reveals himself one way or another to accept and follow Jesus

those who dont reject but seek him there after
the seed of faith that is planted in them will grow into a sapling then a tree

and as a tree if hes what produced your growth then
your fruit is good, you are saved

if your fruit is bad
you grew in the world or flesh or by satan
which is your fault not his

sometimes i feel my fruit is just too young and not yet good to eat still maturing

which is why i may sin or miss the mark

but i fully expect to sin no more and be able to overcome it through Jesus who strengthens me (and makes ALL things possible)

and if i end up falling away

i was decieved by false spirits and was never saved to begin with



that being said

i am still capable of sinning

but the a follower of Jesus obeys
and i will confess and repent of my sins get up and continue to follow him rather than justify myself cover my sin or continue to live in it

 

[NoNameMcgee]

sorry if that wasnt the correct way to answer that

(also when i say,still sin i dont mean every sin)
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Grace777x70]

Sometimes people say What if we stop believing? They are confusing mental assent and heart belief. These are 2 different things entirely.

This has many problems associated with it. First it denies the work of Christ that was done in the heart of the person. Then it gives rise to other questions as well.

So, this implies that anyone can stop believing even though they are sealed with the Holy Spirit. You realize there is a difference between the heart of man and the mind of man?

We believe in the heart - not in the head. People can be messed up in their heads because of wrong thinking and wrong teaching and have sick thinking that does not reflect their true nature in their new man which is in Christ - which has been created in righteousness and holiness.

This doesn't negate the work of Christ in their hearts - in their spirit where they are one spirit with the Lord. 1 Cor. 6;17

At what point does Jesus leave you and separate Himself from you? He did say that He would never leave you nor forsake you.

If someone could at any time "change their believing in their heart" - then that means that Paul and all the other Christians that have gone to heaven can now as an act of their own mind choose to not believe in Christ at any time throughout eternity. What a mess that type of thinking brings to us.

It's foolishness and it is a deception from the enemy to get us "working to keep our salvation". Christ Himself is our salvation - not us.

Can any Christian that is with the Lord now choose to not believe in Him in his heart? Think this through.

No, - belief in Christ and true faith is born in the heart of man and we are then born-again and have been created a new creation in Christ - sealed with the Holy Spirit. Eph. 1:13

Jesus said that the Holy Spirit will be in us forever and John wrote so that we would know that we have eternal life. John 14:16 & 1 John 5:13

It's time for us all to repent and believe the good news just like Jesus said. Mark 1:15

 

[blue_ladybug]

People can, and do, walk away from God for awhile, then eventually find their way back. It's called stumbling off the path..

 

[FranC]

The branches that bear fruit and remain are believers (like the remaining 11 disciples). The self attached branches that bear no fruit and do not remain are not believers (like Judas Iscariot) and those who were offended by the words of Jesus and walked with Him no more - John 6:60-64. Judas was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus (John 6:64-71; 13:10,11).

Again, when Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13). NONE

John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. *So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine, (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet fully established.

*So in John 15, we see two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit and the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, He neither elected them, nor saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off.

The 11 remaining disciples were clean. Was Judas Iscariot clean? No (John 13:10-11). Was he cut off? Yes. Was he saved? No.

If Jesus had wanted to teach that there were true and false professing believers associated with Him, and if He wanted to use the analogy of a vine and branches, then the only way He could refer to people who do not have genuine life in themselves would be to speak of branches that bear no fruit (somewhat after the analogy of the seeds that fell on rocky ground and had "no root" in themselves" Mark 4:17). Here in John 15 the branches that do not bear fruit, though they are in some way connected to Jesus and give an outward appearance of being genuine branches, nonetheless give indication of their true state by the fact they bear no fruit. This is similarly indicated by the fact that the person "does not abide" in Christ (John 15:6) and is cast off as a branch and withers. If we try to press the analogy any further, by saying, for example, that all branches on a vine really are alive or they would not be there in the first place, then we are simply trying to press the imagery beyond what it is able to teach--and in that case there would be nothing in the analogy that could represent false believers in any case. The point of the imagery is simply that those who bear fruit thereby give evidence that they are abiding in Christ; those who do not, are not abiding in Him.

Thank you.

Sorry, but for the sake of Desertrose I do need to make two comments:

1. Judas was a devil? That's not what Jesus thought. Judas spent over 3 years with Jesus.
Jesus gave authority to Judas to preach. Would He give that authority to someone he believed was a devil??
Mathew 10:1
(Mathew 10:1-42)

Anyway, yes, I'd have to agree with you that THOSE WHO REMAIN are BELIEVERS and those who do not remain are not believers and are lost.

Matthew 10:1 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

The Twelve Disciples; Instructions for Service
10 Jesus summoned His twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every kind of disease and every kind of sickness.

In fact, I'd say this is good support for loss of salvation. Judas was lost, then saved, and then lost at the end when he decided to betray Jesus.[/COLOR]


2. You kind of disrespect Jesus a little in your post. It almost sounds like you're saying that He didn't know what He was talking about.

Again, when Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13). NONE

John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. *So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine, (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet fully established.

*So in John 15, we see two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit and the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, He neither elected them, nor saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off.

Did Jesus not know what He was saying when He said trees that do not bear good fruit would be cut down?
(it only took Him one sentence. Mathew 7:19)
Did He not mean this because the Holy Spirit was not present yet??

 

[blue_ladybug]

Does this mean that those people have stopped believing in God? NO. Because we ALL stray away from God at one time or another. We can't ALL be unbelievers.. lol

People can, and do, walk away from God for awhile, then eventually find their way back. It's called stumbling off the path..

 

[PeterJens]

I have a problem with the description of saying mixing faith and behaviour is bad.

God said this from the beginning, your behaviour defines your loyalties, and boundaries.
Everything needs boundaries, because there is a difference between success and failure.

The problem with boundaries is some are not singular.
So the parable of the talents is not there as a defined answer to ones efforts but there
to show there is a massive difference between no result and some result.

Jesus is declaring a result is needed, quantity is less important than reality, but you
need reality.

It seems people want a no reality option, just with a guaranteed conclusion.
How can we say this is the right way of behaving?
Jesus talks about investing, putting effort in, making sacrifices, working for the best
options.

Our behaviour reflects what we are, and what we sow is what we reap.
If we try and behave well without our hearts in the right place we will soon stop.
With a good heart and righteous behaviour we will inherit the Kingdom of God.

Water is wet, so new life in Christ brings with it obedience and love. But it could well
be without obedience and actually doing what seems difficult, the reality of faith will
never dawn. Few believers obey naturally after coming to faith, rather going back
to the world is the easiest option which most choose.

Faith is stepping out though something currently is not there knowing God will bring
it about. I do not believe we earn salvation but we walk in it by obedience.

To walk in the opposite is to rebel and walk against the Lords ways.
How could one keep faith while destroying the very principles on which it stands.

You cannot divorce behaviour from the Kingdom or condemn those who point out
this obvious link. I wonder why people dislike the link. Is it because so many without
faith walk apparently well yet are actually totally flawed. So rather than dealing with
the lack of love, it is the walk that is being attacked and the link.

Without the link to our walk, then there is no guilt or failure.

 

[Grace777x70]

People can, and do, walk away from God for awhile, then eventually find their way back. It's called stumbling off the path..

I agree and it comes from having a distorted view of the gospel and from bad teaching such as IMO - this whole lose your salvation doctrine which to me is a complete denial of the work of Christ on the cross and resurrection.

I believe a lot of sincere believers have left the church ( not Jesus ) because they could not live this religious "sinless perfection in the flesh" Christian life that was being preached to them by some people. They loved Jesus " in their heart" but they didn't want to be a hypocrite so they backed away from the organized church.

Then there is the group that struggled with a certain sin and were never taught about grace properly and so they left because they were defeated. Constantly feeling condemned and guilty and full of shame. The legalists keep preaching at them to change!

The only change that is effective is from the true manifestation of the life of Jesus that is already in us - in our new creation and that only comes with the message of the gospel of the grace of Christ.

I believe there are thousands of Christians like this but I also believe the Lord is bringing them back to Him - only this time it will be based on the true knowledge of Him and His love and grace for them.

The Lord is bringing His beloved back to Him. Let's not have the judgmental works-based older brother who doesn't know the heart and true nature of the Father to meet them at the door of our churches instead of having the Father meet them.

I believe in preaching the love and grace of God in Christ so that believers will have the proper nutrients to grow up in Christ.

We need to build the firm foundation in Him first before we bring on the warning scriptures because we can speak of them in the wrong light and if we are not built on the foundation of Christ Himself and His finished work on the cross - it can cause us to become ship-wrecked.

Speaking the warning scriptures to those with that firm foundation in Christ is needed and they should be heeded and then they become a blessing to us and keep us centered on Christ and His life and not on the flesh with it's deceitfulness.

Walk by the flesh in this life and we will bring destruction of some sort in all our lives - from living a homosexual lifestyle to outbursts of anger, to malice, to envy, to the slandering of others in the body of Christ. They are all in the same lists together.

Let's preach and teach the love and grace of God so that we can grow up in Christ.

 

[FranC]

fran i didnt read everything posted here

but i think to many who believe they have salvation in Jesus
it will be made manifest they never had it
and they had a dead faith

more so than they had true faith and lost it

i may be wrong

but this shouldnt cause division

i see how important repentence is to you based on your posts
and think you got a lot of stuff right and dont think this one thing wether you be right or wrong effects much


if we have a new heart given to us from God
we continue to grow in the word
FOLLOW Jesus and turn from sin we are gonna be alright

may God bless you ( posting this cause from what i did see it was you vs many and i felt sad in my heart)

Hey Brother nonameMcgee

I thank you for the support.
yeah. You're a little calvanistic to say that some may never have been saved to begin with.
But, hey, you might be right. People get confused, they don't absorb the truth, everyhing is possible.

I only know that right now I'm in God's hands and I live for Him.
I trust that I'll Always be there.

A difference of doctrine does not make me dislike a Brother Christian.
Behavior of a believer that acts like a non-believer does make me very sad.

God bless you Brother.

 

[FranC]

Are you a new creation?

As "new creatures" that have passed from eternal death to eternal life it would appear that you are not mixing the faith in respect to Christ in your interpretation.What we will be as new creatures that are freely given a new spirit is not that which we are today.Its what the unbelieving Jew practiced. They also demanded a sign before they would believe their own selves as evidence they thought they had the Spirit of Christ. It made the cross they stumbled over without effect and is why Christ said what he did below. ..


Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

I would suggest looking at a few of some of the commentaries to see the different ideas as to why Christ said what he did. The Catholics because scripture is no authority take that verse to speak against the scriptures saying there is more than scriptures as the voice of God. They also walk by sight.

Why would PeterJens need a commentary when what he posted is clear as day?
He even used color and sizing.

It cannot be anymore clearer unless you have already made a doctrine, and are now looking to confirm it.

It's the other way around.

First you read the bible, and THEN you make up the doctrine based on what the bible says.

 

[FranC]

my bad

im sure i missed a lot

i only read the posts that catch my eye

No. I think you're right.

 

[PeterJens]

Sometimes people say What if we stop believing? They are confusing mental assent and heart belief. These are 2 different things entirely.

In this kind of thinking you can lose your faith and still be saved.
I would ask why anyone is trying to hold to this idea?
It is like saying a righteous man who becomes evil is still blessed by God.

Ezek 18:26 contradicts this
If a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin, they will die for it; because of the sin they have committed they will die.

Ofcourse the idea of eternal security is more secure and reassuring, but is the
cross so weak and empty one needs to say even if you reject the salvation of
the King He will still hold you, though he declares the opposite.

Since you call on a Father who judges each person’s work impartially, live out your time as foreigners here in reverent fear.
1 Peter 1:17

But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere.
James 3:17

How is it people what a partial God because at some point they liked Him.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Hey Brother nonameMcgee

I thank you for the support.
yeah. You're a little calvanistic to say that some may never have been saved to begin with.
But, hey, you might be right. People get confused, they don't absorb the truth, everyhing is possible.

I only know that right now I'm in God's hands and I live for Him.
I trust that I'll Always be there.

A difference of doctrine does not make me dislike a Brother Christian.
Behavior of a believer that acts like a non-believer does make me very sad.

God bless you Brother.

i try so hard to just go by the word
and my understanding of the bible

makes me sad to hear my views lumped in with any denomination


maybe youre right and im confused about some stuff

 

[FranC]

As far as I can tell (y'all correct me if I am wrong)

FranC, followjesus, PeterJens, Jimbo, and about 5 others believe in either Synergism (salvation takes both God's power and man's work to save you) or you have to do good works to maintain your salvation or risk losing it.

There are probably more.

Others believe in monogerism (only by God's power are you saved and stay saved. God works through you, but you are not robots. He changes your mind and way of seeing the world so you WANT to do it His way)

As you've posted them, both scenarios are right.

It's much more complicated than what you posted. SO, if I had to pick one,
it would be the first.

For the reason I've been saying all along:
JUSTIFICATION IS OF GOD. We cannot save ourselves. There is no way. This would be salvation by works. The Mosaic Law. No can do.

SANCTIFICATION IS A COMBINED EFFORT BETWEEN GOD AND MAN.

I think the big problem is that some do not understand correctly that sanctification is like doing the tango. It takes two.

 

[Ariel82]

i believe all of us deserve hell for our sins
God is righteous

and by his mercy he sent Jesus to pay the price for our sin

i believe he calls all of us and reveals himself one way or another to accept and follow Jesus

those who dont reject but seek him there after
the seed of faith that is planted in them will grow into a sapling then a tree

and as a tree if hes what produced your growth then
your fruit is good, you are saved

if your fruit is bad
you grew in the world or flesh or by satan
which is your fault not his

sometimes i feel my fruit is just too young and not yet good to eat still maturing

which is why i may sin or miss the mark

but i fully expect to sin no more and be able to overcome it through Jesus who strengthens me (and makes ALL things possible)

and if i end up falling away

i was decieved by false spirits and was never saved to begin with



that being said

i am still capable of sinning

but the a follower of Jesus obeys
and i will confess and repent of my sins get up and continue to follow him rather than justify myself cover my sin or continue to live in it

Nah love you bro.
This is the best and only way to answer: honest and from the heart.

I know what i believe and I follow the Holy Spirit as best as I can.

What I don't say to most people because they will misunderstand is that...even if God judged me unworthy and sent me to hell, he would still be just because I am a sinner and deserve it.

However I have faith in Jesus and His message of salvation and believe He will call me back home.

For now I am in a strange land, an ambassador for my Father King.

For I know this world is not my home, but I thank God daily for the blessings and beauty He shares with me by giving me loved ones and showing His wonderful creation, his beloved animals and all of nature proclaims His majesty. We just add our voices in praise and thanks giving.

 

[FranC]

To me all this boils down to this.

Some people believe that we must do good works as in the keeping of commandments and others say that the life of Christ will produce good works in and through us by the power and grace of the Spirit of grace.

Both are essentially saying the same thing - except it is the origination of these "good works" that is the issue in some minds. Some people say that we need to do good works or we are not saved. Others say we do good works because we are saved - not from some law.

Of course how much "good works" must one do to qualify as doing official good works?

There are good moral living - good works doing people in every religion of the world. It is how the world operates and it is a fruit of eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. We are to eat from Christ Himself - He is the tree of Life.

In the New Covenant - God did not give us laws to keep but His life to keep us.

Get this backwards and we create a works-based - works-righteousness religion that actually nullifies the grace of God from operating in our lives like it was meant to. We go about trying to mimic the life of Christ by what we do or don't do.

The true Christian life is Christ Himself manifesting His love and grace in and through us - the branches. Without Him we can do nothing...and yes....we do participate in Him with this. Phil. 2:13

The other aspect is that some people think that we do not have eternal life now in Christ and we are not secure in Him. Others believe the complete opposite.

Each should be free to express their views, not insult each other and leave it in the hands of the Lord and just agree to disagree.

Salvation as in being one spirit with the Lord for all eternity and having our sins forgiven by His blood is all based on grace through faith in Christ's work on the cross and resurrection when we heard the message of Him. Eph. 1:13

Grace,

In the New Covenant we have the same MORAL LAWS to keep. As the decalogue or the two Jesus left us with.
What changes from the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant is the WAY that we are able to keep these laws.

Jesus said He must go away so that the Holy Spirit will come.
We thank Him for dying for us and that tends to let us love Him so we want to do good works.
We are now friends and no longer slaves.

If the origination of the works is of a believer, they are works of faith of obedience.

If the works are from a non-believer then they are futile to save that person.

Is what I'm saying contradicting you somehow?

Why fight the fact that believers are REQUIRED BY JESUS to do good works.
The New Covenant has given us a NEW METHOD by which we could do them.

And asking how many good works are necessary is kind of silly when speaking about such big concepts.
I used to volunteer for a Christian Book Store here in my town.
I stopped.
Am I lost now? See. It could get silly. (the idea, not you).

How do you explain sanctification?