Not By Works

[PeterJens]

Oh my gosh,

2 Timothy 2:13 has to be one of the most misunderstood verses in the N.T.

Look at 2 Timothy 2:12?

If we deny Him, He will deny us.
Then in verse 13 it says that if we're unfaithful, He remains faithful.

Doesn't it seem like a contradiction to you?
Yet God is not a maker of confusion.

So, obviously, verse 13 must mean something else.

Don't take my word for it, you could look it up, but it mean that We could be unfaithful to God, but HE cannot be unfaithful to HIMSELF.

Even if we lose faith in HIM, HE will continue his salvific work in those who wish to have faith and be saved. He will do what He promised in the beginning in the book of Genesis 3:15

If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
12 if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
13 if we are faithless,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.
2 tim 2:11-13

Linked reactions

Die with Christ, live with Him
Endure, reign with Him
Disown, disowned by Him
Faithless, He remains faithful waiting

God is faithful to His word, and if we return to Him He will be faithful, there is
always hope if we turn back to Him.

Many here have found they lost their faith, but have returned to a faithful
God and been restored, Praise the Lord. Without this once you become faithless
we would forever be lost.

 

[PeterJens]

A good work in someone may not be completed if you walk away.
But if you stay faithful He will complete it. The promise is the faithful people of God
will be rewarded.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

A good work in someone may not be completed if you walk away.
But if you stay faithful He will complete it. The promise is the faithful people of God
will be rewarded.

It does not say that, Why would you add to the word of God.

Phil 1: 6. for I am confident of this very thing, That he who BEGAN A GOOD WORK IN YOu WILL PERFECT/COMPLETE it's UNTIL THE DAY OF CHRIST.


where does it say only if we remain in faith. Why would Paul preach. Having confidence in self and our ability to stay in faith, and not faith in God? When Paul spoke volumes of words apposed to having confidence in self.

 

[PeterJens]

It does not say that, Why would you add to the word of God.

Phil 1: 6. for I am confident of this very thing, That he who BEGAN A GOOD WORK IN YOu WILL PERFECT/COMPLETE it's UNTIL THE DAY OF CHRIST.


where does it say only if we remain in faith. Why would Paul preach. Having confidence in self and our ability to stay in faith, and not faith in God? When Paul spoke volumes of words apposed to having confidence in self.

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Mark 16:16

that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him
John 3:15

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:16

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
John 3:18

Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
John 6:29

If one stops believing then all the above promises no longer apply.
It is like driving a car because it has petrol in the tank.
You then empty the tank and expect the car to still work.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Mark 16:16

that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him
John 3:15

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:16

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
John 3:18

Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
John 6:29

If one stops believing then all the above promises no longer apply.
It is like driving a car because it has petrol in the tank.
You then empty the tank and expect the car to still work.

So Paul was confident in self not God? Is that what your saying?

Stick to Philippians Petert.. Where did Paul say he is confident that God will perfect us only if we have faith? Where is it? Not in John,.

Why are you adding to the word of God something Paul never said.

Don't you think if remaining in faith was so important that Paul would have mentioned it in Philippians's letter? Why would he leave out something so importan?

And finally concerning your passage.

1. In john 3 it says they have in position eternal life. Eternal is forever, and c an not be lost.
2. In john 3, It says who ever does not believe is already in a state of condemnation. Not that they lost salvation and fell into that state
In john 6. Jesus said, whoever believes will NEVER hunger, NEVER thirst,NEVER die. Live FOREVER> HAS ETERNAL LIFE, and WILL BE RAISED on the last day (the day of Christ, the same day Paul said in Philippians that Christ will continue to perfect us until that day)

So the passages you tried to use do not even support you without changing the meaning of words. And adding to the word of God.

 

[Ariel82]

I am waiting to have lunch with my daughter. Was helping a small group write monologs from the POV of a character from the book we are reading. Just one scene and I challenged them to engage all 5 senses. It's a challeng for 3rd graders. Lol teacher says it challenging for adults too.

So a little 1st grade boy yell it's Ms C and I entered the cafeteria and gave me a big hug and smile.

Made my day. When another kid asked "who is she?" he said "that's my Sunday school teacher."

It's moments like that which I treasure as precious gems, and reminds me that you never know how your actions impact others lives.

 

[Ariel82]

i try so hard to just go by the word
and my understanding of the bible

makes me sad to hear my views lumped in with any denomination


maybe youre right and im confused about some stuff

Lol folks feel better if they can put you in a box.

I told someone yesterday, the only label I claimed for a while is "BELOVED child of God". I didn't even call myself Christian because there were too many rules and hypocrites.

 

[PeterJens]

So Paul was confident in self not God? Is that what your saying?

Stick to Philippians Petert.. Where did Paul say he is confident that God will perfect us only if we have faith? Where is it? Not in John,.

Why are you adding to the word of God something Paul never said.

Don't you think if remaining in faith was so important that Paul would have mentioned it in Philippians's letter? Why would he leave out something so importan?

And finally concerning your passage.

1. In john 3 it says they have in position eternal life. Eternal is forever, and c an not be lost.
2. In john 3, It says who ever does not believe is already in a state of condemnation. Not that they lost salvation and fell into that state
In john 6. Jesus said, whoever believes will NEVER hunger, NEVER thirst,NEVER die. Live FOREVER> HAS ETERNAL LIFE, and WILL BE RAISED on the last day (the day of Christ, the same day Paul said in Philippians that Christ will continue to perfect us until that day)

So the passages you tried to use do not even support you without changing the meaning of words. And adding to the word of God.

The way you interpret scripture is once you have arrived at faith, you are
there forever. People use this kind of language when the fall in love.
I will love your forever, we will be together forever. These words are true
if love continues, but change radically when the love evaporates.

God promised much to Israel on condition they stayed faithful to Him.
They did not so judgement came and they were led into captivity.

God promises much to His people, but it is continually given with warnings
about walking in the Spirit, leading to life, and the flesh leading to death.

How can these words spoken to believers mean anything but you show to the
flesh and the words of promise are empty. It is amazing how wonderful the cross
is, but only for the people of faith and promise.

 

[Ariel82]

I think the big problem is, as said before, That people do not understand what sanctification is, and what justification is.

Salvation is based on justification alone. If salvation can be lost. Then justification must be earned, period

Rewards, blessing, Chsastening, Lack of being blessed, and having rewards burned are a result of sanctification.

If I am justified, I have eternal life. And nothing can take that away from me.. If salvation can be lost. Then salvation is based on sanctification,. NOT justification. And is of works. Not grace.

God blesses us even before we are fully sanctified, we just don't recognize it as a blessing at the time.

Martin Luther talked of two types of righteousness. Perhaps that would help people understand what is being said?

 

[Ariel82]

I am confused.

Ariel said that if God begins a good work in you, he will finish it, because he is powerful enough.

And you disagreed?

Scrtipture. Says, He who began (past tense) A good work in you WILL COMPLETE it until the day of Christ. It does not say he may complete it, It does not say it is up to you if he completes it (like we can stop him) it says he will complete it.. It is a non conditional prom,use made by God himself. He will complete it..

Do we trust him to keep his word or not? Thats the issue.

I studied this doctrine of falling away and believe it's tied to infant baptism and why some children continue in the faith after confirmation and why some fall away.

Confirmation classes are for 11-18 year olds mostly, but required to join the church as a functioning member.

Personally I don't believe water baptism saves anyone and you can baptize babies into the earthly Church family but only God accepts people into His heavenly family and adopts them by giving them the Holy Spirit.

So some who are baptized by men are not really part of the God's family at all. THAT is why they fall away.they never accepted Jesus as their Savior.

 

[Ariel82]

Do you really want me to exegesis this text for you?

Maybe when I get home and after I finish my chores. Going to have lunch with my daughter now.

Cyl

*******

2 Timothy 2
10Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11The saying is trustworthy, for:

If we have died with him, we will also live with him;
12if we endure, we will also reign with him;
if we deny him, he also will deny us;
13if we are faithless, he remains faithful—

for he cannot deny himself.


14Remind them of these things, and charge them before Godb not to quarrel about words, which does no good, but only ruins the hearers. 15Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved,c a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth. 16But avoid irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness, 17and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18who have swerved from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already happened. They are upsetting the faith of some. 19But God’s firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.”

20Now in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver but also of wood and clay, some for honorable use, some for dishonorable. 21Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from what is dishonorable,d he will be a vessel for honorable use, set apart as holy, useful to the master of the house, ready for every good work.

*****

Still no comment on the verses in my signature or did I miss it?

 

[PeterJens]

I think the big problem is, as said before, That people do not understand what sanctification is, and what justification is.

Salvation is based on justification alone. If salvation can be lost. Then justification must be earned, period

Rewards, blessing, Chsastening, Lack of being blessed, and having rewards burned are a result of sanctification.

If I am justified, I have eternal life. And nothing can take that away from me.. If salvation can be lost. Then salvation is based on sanctification,. NOT justification. And is of works. Not grace.

If salvation has no condition based on your response to Christ, there is no point
to salvation. You do not let a homicidal maniac out of prison because he believes
someone else is a nice guy, but because he is no longer a homicidal maniac and
is not going to go around murdering people.

However you express this or package it, it is this change and experience is the
point of salvation, a sinner changed into a saint. The question that trips up most
believers is what about the finer details and more subtle issues of how we express
love one to another. But that is our walk, not in sin, but in love and the Spirit.

And keeping faith in Christ is not hard, because the cross tells us all we need to
know about His character.

What concerns me is the impossible issues people continually raise but actually
appear to be everyday relationship and attitude issues which in Christ can all be
resolved. What for me is staggering to just state these realities I am the worst
evil in the world. I think this demonstrates the totally out of proportion reaction
people have within themselves. This is the pride of man stirring up issues that
are in the believer themselves and not in Christ or anyone else.

The Holy Spirit worked in the churches Paul preached to because they changed
and walked in holiness and purity. It is obvious from how Paul shares, lifting Holy
hands in praise to Him.

 

[phil36]

I studied this doctrine of falling away and believe it's tied to infant baptism and why some children continue in the faith after confirmation and why some fall away.

Confirmation classes are for 11-18 year olds mostly, but required to join the church as a functioning member.

Personally I don't believe water baptism saves anyone and you can baptize babies into the earthly Church family but only God accepts people into His heavenly family and adopts them by giving them the Holy Spirit.

So some who are baptized by men are not really part of the God's family at all. THAT is why they fall away.they never accepted Jesus as their Savior.

Good post Ariel, regarding falling away. This is also true of believers baptism (Baptists). Those who fall away never were really a part of the 'invisible' church, they may have enjoyed the benefits of the church for a while, but where not part of it. Heb 6:4-6.

 

[Ariel82]

If salvation has no condition based on your response to Christ, there is no point
to salvation. You do not let a homicidal maniac out of prison because he believes
someone else is a nice guy, but because he is no longer a homicidal maniac and
is not going to go around murdering people.

However you express this or package it, it is this change and experience is the
point of salvation, a sinner changed into a saint. The question that trips up most
believers is what about the finer details and more subtle issues of how we express
love one to another. But that is our walk, not in sin, but in love and the Spirit.

And keeping faith in Christ is not hard, because the cross tells us all we need to
know about His character.

What concerns me is the impossible issues people continually raise but actually
appear to be everyday relationship and attitude issues which in Christ can all be
resolved. What for me is staggering to just state these realities I am the worst
evil in the world. I think this demonstrates the totally out of proportion reaction
people have within themselves. This is the pride of man stirring up issues that
are in the believer themselves and not in Christ or anyone else.

The Holy Spirit worked in the churches Paul preached to because they changed
and walked in holiness and purity. It is obvious from how Paul shares, lifting Holy
hands in praise to Him.

While on the surface this is a nice post. It does NOT address anything EG is talking about in his post.

What determine salvation?

EG has stated over and over again that sanctification happens and is needed in the lives of a believer.

The difference is WHO do you glorify in bringing about that change: YOURSELF or God?

Why do you want to mix justification and sanctification?

 

[Ariel82]

The way you interpret scripture is once you have arrived at faith, you are
there forever. People use this kind of language when the fall in love.
I will love your forever, we will be together forever. These words are true
if love continues, but change radically when the love evaporates.

God promised much to Israel on condition they stayed faithful to Him.
They did not so judgement came and they were led into captivity.

God promises much to His people, but it is continually given with warnings
about walking in the Spirit, leading to life, and the flesh leading to death.

How can these words spoken to believers mean anything but you show to the
flesh and the words of promise are empty. It is amazing how wonderful the cross
is, but only for the people of faith and promise.

Wow...from this post I seriously question if you truly understand God's Agape love? Do you even believe in unconditional love or do you only give and understand love as the world gives?

 

[Ariel82]

Phil 1: 6. for I am confident of this very thing, That he who BEGAN A GOOD WORK IN YOu WILL PERFECT/COMPLETE it's UNTIL THE DAY OF CHRIST.

The above is just one example of God's Agape love for His children.

 

[Ariel82]

God blesses us even before we are fully sanctified, we just don't recognize it as a blessing at the time.

Martin Luther talked of two types of righteousness. Perhaps that would help people understand what is being said?

Not sure if this will help the discussion or not, but it helped my understanding.

Martin Luther: Two Kinds of Righteousness

There are two kinds of Christian righteousness, just as man’s sin is of two kinds. The first is alien righteousness, that is the righteousness of another, instilled from without. This is the righteousness of Christ by which he justifies though faith, as it is written in I Cor. 1:30: “whom God made our wisdom, our righteousness and sanctification and redemption.” In John 11:25-26, Christ himself states: “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me.....shall never die.” Later he adds in John 14:6, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.” This righteousness, then, is given to men in baptism and whenever they are truly repentant. Therefore a man can with confidence boast in Christ and say: “Mine are Christ’s living, doing, and speaking, his suffering and dying, mine as much as if I had lived, done, spoken, suffered, and died as he did.”

Alien righteousness given to us by Jesus work on the cross. Its what He clothes us with.

The second kind of righteousness is our proper righteousness, not because we alone work it, but because we work with that first and alien righteousness. This is that manner of life spent profitably in good works, in the first place, in slaying the flesh and crucifying the desires with respect to the self, of which we read in Gal. 5:24, “And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.” In the second place, this righteousness consists in love to one’s neighbor, and in the third place, in meekness and fear towards God. The Apostle is full of references to these, as is all the rest of Scripture. He briefly summarizes everything, however, in Titus 2:12, “ In this world let us live soberly (pertaining to crucifying one’s own flesh), justly (referring to one’s neighbor), and devoutly (relating to God).”
[7] This righteousness is the product of the righteousness of the first type, actually its fruit and consequence, for we read in Gal. 5:22, “But the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.”

Proper righteousness that we work for in this life. We run the race to earn this crown of righteousness. What the crown looks like depends on how We live our lives. Our crown can be made of gold (love), silver (works), precious stones (memories of God's blessings in this life) or hay (wasted time) and stubble (sinful acts). Even if someone's works all burn away,God will save anyone whose foundation is Faith in Christ and His redeeming work on the cross and resurrection.

That is what I believe they symbolize, because that is what I treasure and what I believe will be burnt up.

 

[BillG]

I happen to watch Joseph Prince from time to time and find him to be a very good teacher.
Interestingly, he does repeat many times that what he teaches does not mean one could feel free to sin.

Why would he feel it necessary to repeat this?
Because the things he says and the way he preaches MAKES IT SEEM AS THOUGH we could do whatever we want to and it would be OK.

If he preached properly he would not have to speak this disclaimer on a continuous basis.
The very fact that he DOES have to say it, shows that something is wrong in how he's presenting the gospel.
As we know, this is known as hyper-grace. Grace is normal for God, hype-grace is not biblical.

I have read some of the Hyper-grace theology. I do have to say that some of their stuff bought me back.
That is not say I am a hyper-gracer as such.

However I would say he reiterates that what he teaches does bit mean one could be free sin because it could be taken that way.

To me he is saying the same as Paul.

Romans 6:1-4
Chapter 6
Dead to Sin, Alive to God
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Our new found

 

[BillG]

Could you explain what FLUFF is?

Its something I get in my belly button.

 

[Ariel82]

I don't like Joseph Prince because he teaches the false "sow a money to get money" doctrine, but that is a whole nuther thread topic.