Not By Works

[FranC]

if you study the word for 10 hours

and watch sports for 1 hour

did you put sports above God?


yes for 1 hour

i mean to me i was called to give up mma

maybe because its violent

ill back off on this
its not the main focus of my question

and your arent wrong in your definition

NNM

God speaks to you and you're to do as God says.

I do want to make a comment as to something you say above:

I don't know what mma is, but as far as sports ar concerned:

You did NOT put sports above God for that hour that you watched sports.

Putting something above God means that you LOVE that thing more than you love God.
Loving God first means that you put everything in the right order.

If you love God first, you understand that sports is not all that important, although you could really like it a lot.
Putting God first means that you don't WORSHIP that other thing you do.
I love watching movies. But I dont' WORSHIP them. See?

Jesus is easy. He loves you. Don't put a heavy yoke upon yourself. You're a new Christian and all fired up.
Make sure you don't get burned out.

Read
Mathew 6:20-21 verse 22 is also good.
Mathew 11:28-30

 

[Ariel82]

Let's examine this post logically...

My dear Ariel,

Dcon stands up for sinners because he teaches Easy Believism or Cheap Grace.

here we have the FALSE conclusion.

When one says a person is REQUIRED TO DO NOTHING becasue GOD HAS DONE IT ALL,

Dcon also says that God will continue to work within a believer to sanctify them and will produce good works....ignoring those post of his are you? Like you ignore the verses in my signature?

Premise one

He is, in effect, saying that it's OK to sin because our sins are covered.

another false conclusion

Does this mean our sins are not covered?

????? Well most folks know that Jesus covers all sin...but what you believe? Nobody can really figure out.

Unfortunately, I don't have a lot of time to put into teaching you stuff.

quite alright, you don't have any heavenly wisdom to teach me.

You should learn it before you try to teach thngs to kids...

God has taught me what I need to know and it goes beyond mere words on a page.

One of the most important lesson God has taught me is to listen and to pray and to study the Bible myself.

You may study the Bible, but you get an F on listening skills.

 

[graceNpeace]

Fear and trembling is the attitude with which Christians are to pursue their ongoing sanctification. It involves a healthy fear of offending God and a righteous awe and respect for Him (Proverbs 1:7; Psalm 34:9; Isaiah 66:2), *not fear of God as if He is a tyrant who can't wait to punish you every time you mess up.

*That is the unhealthy fear of God that I had while growing up in the Roman Catholic church.

I was in a discussion on a different Christian forum in which the thread was entitled: "Is sanctification an event, a process, or both?" We had a very good discussion.

Many came to agree there is an initial sanctification in which believers are made holy in standing before God postionally in Christ, 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.. 1 Corinthians 1:2 - To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified (past tense) in Christ Jesus..

Yet we also see progressive sanctification in which the reality of that holiness becomes more and more evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives. 1 Thessalonians 4:3-4 - For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain (present tense) from sexual immorality; that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctificationand honor. Hebrews 10:14 - For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

So becoming washed, sanctified and justified in Christ is a one time event, yet abstaining from sexual immorality (ongoing sanctification) is not a one time event.

Yes sanctification does involve two concepts, one of which is positional, and is satisfied at the time that one is justified.
Perhaps this could be thought of as the set-apartness that is part of the meaning of sanctification.
There is also the progressive aspect to sanctification (which does involve us as humans participating with God, Fran) where we do strive to become more Christ-like.
The progressive aspect begins the moment we are born again but is never complete in this lifetime.

BTW: cracking series of posts MMD!

 

[FranC]

yes things like this can be from the pit of hell. like the lie that people do not sin as believers. that is a big fat lie.

so maybe, you should send that belief back where it came from, it has no business in the Body of Christ, because sinless perfectionism is a LIE. and so is anyone who will not admit to sinning.

Such sweet words instead of sticking to scripture.

Yes. You shall know them by their fruit....

 

[Ariel82]

Logical fallacy 101
The Most Common Logical Fallacies



Affirming the Consequent
This is a fairly difficult fallacy to understand or spot. It is categorical in nature and, essentially, means reversing an argument, or putting the cart before the horse, meaning reversing or confusing the general category with the specific/sub-category. Note that in this fallacy the premises/reasons are actually correct or valid; the error is found between the premises and conclusion. Usually, the error occurs because we incorrectly assume that the Premise was a sufficient condition, when in fact it was only a necessary condition (one of many conditions) necessary to prove the conclusion.

Fallacy Ex:
Premise: Obama wants nationalized health care.
Premise: The Nazis had nationalized health care.
Conclusion: Nationalized health care will make us all Nazis!
(Affirming The Consequent Fallacy: "nationalized health care" is not a sufficient reason to define the category of Nazism, any more than does "swims in water" defines the category "birds". In fact, with the exception of the USA, every country that fought against the Nazis now has nationalized health care.)
Editor's note: Obama does not, in fact, want to "nationalize healthcare".

 

[Grace777x70]

Well done mailmandan on sanctification in post #9079.

I have often said this and I will post it again about sanctification.

This is what believers in the grace of our Lord Jesus have to say about "sanctification"..the word itself means = "to be set apart"

We are perfectly sanctified in Christ now....very true....we as an identity the new creation in Christ will never be more holy then we are now.

However there is a "sanctifying" of our behavior that is on-going that reflects our true nature in Christ...so in essence...we are becoming outwardly who we really are in our inner man which is in Christ.

This involves the renewing of the mind to walk out what already is in the new creation that is one spirit with Christ now. The Holy Spirit transforms us as we behold the glory/goodness of the Lord as in a mirror. We participate in this with Him. 2 Cor. 3:17-18

God sets apart ( sanctifies ) our attitudes and actions outwardly but you are 100% set apart ( sanctified ) as a person..the real you in your inner man..the new creation in Christ.

Hebrews 10:14 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

( who are sanctified this is present passive..passive is that something is being done to you ...the Spirit of the Lord in us changing us. )

Here is what Jesus told Paul on the road to Damascus....having been sanctified ( perfect passive ).

Perfect tense =The perfect tense in Greek is used to describe a completed past action which produced results which are still in effect all the way up to the present. This is continuously happening in the present.

Passive means something is being done to you - you are not doing it.
Acts 26:17 (NASB)

[SUP]18 [/SUP] to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.' (perfect passive )

It is obvious from scripture that we are to walk out the holiness that is in us.

There is a difference between us as a person being "set apart" ( sanctified in our spirit ) and "setting apart " ( sanctifying ) our behavior.

1 Peter 1:15-16 (NASB)
[SUP]15[/SUP] but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior;

[SUP]16 [/SUP] because it is written, "YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY."

We are holy because He is holy! Christ makes us holy.

 

[Ariel82]

Logical fallacy 101

Favorite one for CC users..

Ad Hominem
This translates as “to the man” and refers to any attacks on the person advancing the argument, rather than on the validity of the evidence or logic. It’s is one thing to say that I don’t agree with you, but it’s another thing to say that I don’t like you, and you are wrong because I don't like you; evil people often make valid claims, and good people often make invalid claims, so separate the claim from the person. Like the emotional appeal, the validity of an argument has utterly nothing to do with the character of those presenting it.

 

[FranC]

I think that Peterjens is trying to speak about how our life should look like if Christ is being manifested in us which - he is correct in that IMO.

But - Where the dis-connect is - how is this done and if this is not done then does this mean we are kicked out of Christ?

That ...to me seems to be the issue other then the obvious mis-representation what is actually being said in real life.

Grace,

I cannot speak for PeterJens, but I sincerely doubt he's saying what you mention above.

I happen not to believe in eternal security.

Does this mean I'm "kicked out of Christ" every time I sin?
May it never be!!!

It's not so easy to lose salvation and this is a totally different topic. I have to WANT to leave Christ.
John 6:68

There is no disconnect. I do wish we'd listen to each other.
GOD REQUIRES us to behave in a certain way.
He is not requesting this.

AFTER we're saved, we must FOLLOW Jesus. BELIEVE in Jesus. Have FAITH in Jesus.

You like Greek. What do the words I've capitalized mean in the Greek?
THIS is all I'm saying, and Others here.

Some make it sound like we have a choice.
Some make it sound like it's GOD doing all the work.

The Holy Spirit was sent as a helper. He is our paraclete. Come on. What does paraclete mean?
He walks beside us and HELPS us.

God does NOT do everything for us.

For the umpteenth time, THIS IS THEOLOGICALLY incorrect.

IF we want to say THAT, then every time we SIN, IT IS GOD'S FAULT.

Please think about this and quit fighting me since we're on the same side...

 

[FranC]

Paul, who was taught by direct revelation and inspired to pen the letters he penned was clear....

a. If salvation is by grace, which it is, it cannot be by works
b. If by works, which it is not, it is no longer grace

It is not both.....It is one or the other....

To blend faith and works to get, keep or maintain salvation is a gospel of another kind, which is not the same kind Paul preached.

Faith plus works for salvation is false, double cursed, has no power to save and Paul uses two words to accurately describe those who peddle it....the words being FOOLISH AND BEWITCHED<--Galatians 1 and 3

I will take grace and faith over being foolish and or bewitched....how about you?

You're almost there Dcon.

You're right that Paul taught that salvation is not by works. It is TOTALLY by grace.

Tell me what Paul said about AFTER we're saved.

I'm not posting verses again since you pay no attention to them.

Look it up yourself.
Does Paul no exhort us to do good works?
What about the other Writers? They KNEW Jesus. Are they also wrong?

John 14.21
Romans 14.12
Romans 15:4
1 Corinthians 15:58

and plenty more.
Show me some verses that say we are to do nothing because God does it all for us AFTER we're saved.


(all of Romans 15,16, 14)

Dcon, you teach easy believism and cheap grace.
Christ died for you.
You shouldn't cheapen His Death.

 

[Grace777x70]

Grace,

I cannot speak for PeterJens, but I sincerely doubt he's saying what you mention above.

I happen not to believe in eternal security.

Does this mean I'm "kicked out of Christ" every time I sin?
May it never be!!!

It's not so easy to lose salvation and this is a totally different topic. I have to WANT to leave Christ.
John 6:68

There is no disconnect. I do wish we'd listen to each other.
GOD REQUIRES us to behave in a certain way.
He is not requesting this.

AFTER we're saved, we must FOLLOW Jesus. BELIEVE in Jesus. Have FAITH in Jesus.

You like Greek. What do the words I've capitalized mean in the Greek?
THIS is all I'm saying, and Others here.

Some make it sound like we have a choice.
Some make it sound like it's GOD doing all the work.

The Holy Spirit was sent as a helper. He is our paraclete. Come on. What does paraclete mean?
He walks beside us and HELPS us.

God does NOT do everything for us.

For the umpteenth time, THIS IS THEOLOGICALLY incorrect.

IF we want to say THAT, then every time we SIN, IT IS GOD'S FAULT.

Please think about this and quit fighting me since we're on the same side...

Fran,

We have been over this subject many times in the past and spoken that there is a vast difference between our minds and our hearts in believing . I have also said that we participate with the Holy Spirit as He transforms our minds as we behold the glory/goodness of the Lord as in a mirror.

- it just boils down to - you believe Christians lose salvation and others don't believe in that doctrine.

People should just give out the scriptures that they believe and leave it in the hands of the Lord and stop insulting each other and just let things go.

Personally I have more faith that Daffy Duck and Donald Duck are the 2 witnesses in the book of Revelation then to disbelief what the Lord Jesus Christ said in John 14:16. "The Holy Spirit will be in you forever." I'm sticking with the Lord Jesus Christ on this one.

You have a great weekend! Bless you...

 

[blue_ladybug]

Fran, Dcon isn't saying that we aren't to do good works after we're saved.

He's saying that those works will NOT KEEP US SAVED.

Big difference.

 

[FranC]

452 pages to explain it's not of works

Katy,
It IS of works.
Learn it.

 

[FranC]

And also v10: "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them"

You see.
You yourself say it IS good works!

WE ARE CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS FOR GOOD WORKS.

Which part of that sentence do you have trouble understanding??

 

[Ariel82]

You see.
You yourself say it IS good works!

WE ARE CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS FOR GOOD WORKS.

Which part of that sentence do you have trouble understanding??

The part where you have the mistaken impression that anyone is against doing good works AFTER salvation.

What is being preach against is working FOR salvation and not relying on Jesus and His finished work on the cross but having faith in your own works....

However, doubt you will listen,

 

[blue_ladybug]

Salvation is NOT gained BY works.

Salvation is gained by grace through faith and belief in Jesus.

We ARE to do works

But NOT for the purpose of getting saved, staying saved or getting to heaven.

 

[FranC]

Fran.....

Since the scriptures say that one cannot enter the Kingdom unless they are born again, I'm curious to know your belief as to how a person is born again (John 3:1-8)

Only one way:

John 3:3-6
John 3:16
Galatians 2:16
Colossians 1:21-23

 

[gb9]

Katy,
It IS of works.
Learn it.

it is not of works. accept it. you mentioned Titus 2: 14, 15 earlier. if you KEEP READING, Titus 3 clearly lays out NOT BY WORKS.

 

[blue_ladybug]

So a person CANNOT get to God by doing works.

Because works don't save us. There are 2 reasons why we do works.

1. God commands us to.

2. We do them because we love God, and we show His love to others when we do works.

Only one way:

John 3:3-6
John 3:16
Galatians 2:16
Colossians 1:21-23

 

[Ariel82]

Grace,

I cannot speak for PeterJens, but I sincerely doubt he's saying what you mention above.

I happen not to believe in eternal security.

Does this mean I'm "kicked out of Christ" every time I sin?
May it never be!!!

It's not so easy to lose salvation and this is a totally different topic. I have to WANT to leave Christ.
John 6:68

And this is why you are being accused of works salvation...

There is no disconnect. I do wish we'd listen to each other.
GOD REQUIRES us to behave in a certain way.
He is not requesting this.

what happens if you do NOT behave that way? Do you lose your salvation?

I ask because that is the straw man you should address,..

AFTER we're saved, we must FOLLOW Jesus. BELIEVE in Jesus. Have FAITH in Jesus.

yes, everyone agrees with that. The fact you say others dony, is the strawman you like to create.,

You like Greek. What do the words I've capitalized mean in the Greek?
THIS is all I'm saying, and Others here.

maybe you should stick to speaking for yourself. I know we have at least one Universalist floating on the boards and quite a few Hebrew roots folks and others who do believe works are required to be saved...you still say it more often,than not.

Some make it sound like we have a choice.

thought you believed in free will? Oh you, mean your favorite straw man that folks encourage others to sin?

Some make it sound like it's GOD doing all the work.

this must be your robot straw man...

No one says that People are robots...we give glory to God who empowers us, teaches us and "does all the work" within us to enable us to walk with Him. Walking is not "work" and neither is abiding "work" it is testing and trusting in God. Who does all the "work" in us and thru us.

The Holy Spirit was sent as a helper. He is our paraclete. Come on. What does paraclete mean?
He walks beside us and HELPS us.

Yep everyone got that....

God does NOT do everything for us.

maybe you just don't see HOW God works in people's lives? Or how the phrase is being used beyond your robot straw man?

For the umpteenth time, THIS IS THEOLOGICALLY incorrect.

yes your strawmen are illogical and theologically incorrect but you love making them and slapping others faces on them...

IF we want to say THAT, then every time we SIN, IT IS GOD'S FAULT.

another illogical conclusion based on the false premise that folks don't believe in free will.

Please think about this and quit fighting me since we're on the same side...

You are the one doing the fighting and mainly because you have a lot of false ideas about what others believe and lack the ability to listen beyond your preconceived false notions of others beliefs,

 

[Ariel82]

I think we should have a sell on strawmen...we can throw creme pies at them.

Might make folks feel better?

Up for auction block is Straw man 1: Robot man


Robot man is the false picture that God controls people and they have lost all free will to choose good or evil. People who love Robot man, because they can replace what others really believe with him after hearing trigger words like "all Glory to God who works all good works"