Not By Works

[FranC]

Let's add to this incomplete definition of justification...



Justification is what allows people to become born again children of God...it not only gives you a legal standing of "innocent" which is called positional justification and alien righteousness. It also restores the the right relationship between God and mankind through the Holy Spirit.

Justification is not only free, it's life changing.

Justification only happens when your foundation is in Christ alone for salvation.

When you add works to earn salvation, your justification is no longer on Christ alone.

Therefore a false understanding of justification can shipwreck your faith, because you are building on shifting sands and not the Rock.

Justification is for ANYONE who believes in Christ for their salvation.

A false understanding of justification DOES NOT MEAN YOU ARE LOST.

Let's let God get out of that box...

 

[FranC]

Here is an easy way to make the distinction between justification and sanctification:

Justification is the Root. It is based upon what Jesus did for us.

Sanctification is the fruit. It is based upon being saved and abiding in Jesus. One of the first fruits is confessing with your mouth saving faith that comes from the heart that Jesus is Lord and Savior. Then you add to that faith, virtue, knowledge, self control,perseverance, brotherly kindness and AGAPE love. Once the inner work of sanctification by walking with the Holy Spirit is begun and brought to a certain point, God gives His children tasks and work to do for His Glory and to use the spiritual gifts he bestowed individually upon each child. He chastens his kids if they fall into son,but he does NOT end or sever His relationship with them....all of this is part of the sanctification process that God works in the lives of His kids and how He teaches them to live godly lives for His Glory.


However sanctification should not be confused with justification.

My mouth is sooooo dry.

Guess I should disappear...
BUT NOT YET.

Sanctification is something YOU do.
It's a result of obeying the commands of Jesus.

 

[FranC]

Let's add to this incomplete definition of justification...



Justification is what allows people to become born again children of God...it not only gives you a legal standing of "innocent" which is called positional justification and alien righteousness. It also restores the the right relationship between God and mankind through the Holy Spirit.

Justification is not only free, it's life changing.

Justification only happens when your foundation is in Christ alone for salvation.

When you add works to earn salvation, your justification is no longer on Christ alone.

Therefore a false understanding of justification can shipwreck your faith, because you are building on shifting sands and not the Rock.

Let's see. Let's use YOUR method:

DO YOU UNDERSTAND ENGLISH???

When did I say works are added to justificiation???
PLEASE POST.

Thanks.

 

[FranC]

Let's add to this incomplete definition of justification...



Justification is what allows people to become born again children of God...it not only gives you a legal standing of "innocent" which is called positional justification and alien righteousness. It also restores the the right relationship between God and mankind through the Holy Spirit.

Justification is not only free, it's life changing.

Justification only happens when your foundation is in Christ alone for salvation.

When you add works to earn salvation, your justification is no longer on Christ alone.

Therefore a false understanding of justification can shipwreck your faith, because you are building on shifting sands and not the Rock.

INCOMPLETE DEFINITION???

That's pretty sweet coming from someone who NEVER explained it really well.

 

[Ariel82]

I agree. God did give them new clothes to wear after their own attempts to cover themselves. It sounds like works-righteousness came in their minds came right after the eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

That makes me think of the some things we believe that we got from our church teachings and traditions if we say something that is different - we find it hard to believe.

For example: The bible no where says that there were 3 wise men that came to visit Jesus. The other fallacy is that these wise men were at the birth of Jesus - they were not.

These 2 things are commonly held beliefs and yet they are not accurate at all. It makes one wonder what "other things" do we just accept as being true because of what we were taught in our church teachings?

I always wondered why more folks don't know about "Hananiah, Mishael and Azariah."

I wasn't raised Christian so I find a lot of church traditions kind of strange.

When I asked someone about it,
I was told the 3 wise men represented the three types of gifts given to Jesus and each gift had symbolic meaning to show that He was a King and to foreshadow His death, because mrryh was used for funerals. Also that they started traveling when Jesus was born and Jesus was probably 2 years old when they arrived. That is why Herod killed all the infants two and under.

You know I just jabbin' at you right?

 

[FranC]

No we are sanctified by our desire to follow Jesus. We are justified by our Faith in Jesus redeeming work on the cross.

Do you understand the importance to distinguish between the two while having a conversation?

Ariel,

I dare say that Peter Jens understands a Whole lot more than YOU ever will.

Sorry 'bout that. But it's TRUE.

Amen.

 

[Ariel82]

You are entitled to your opinion Fran.

You have a great way of encouraging folks. Must be a new tactic to tell someone they will NEVER reach the understanding level of another person.

That way you can commit two sins in one statement: encourage people to compare themselves to others and tell them God can't teach them.

It's a blessing that God says differently.

 

[FranC]

I agree. God did give them new clothes to wear after their own attempts to cover themselves. It sounds like works-righteousness came in their minds came right after the eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

That makes me think of the some things we believe that we got from our church teachings and traditions if we say something that is different - we find it hard to believe.

For example: The bible no where says that there were 3 wise men that came to visit Jesus. The other fallacy is that these wise men were at the birth of Jesus - they were not.

These 2 things are commonly held beliefs and yet they are not accurate at all. It makes one wonder what "other things" do we just accept as being true because of what we were taught in our church teachings?

Three wise men.

Wow Grace.
But you're sooooo intelligent.

Anyone who goes to any bible study knows there may have been more.
And WHEN they showed up.

Don't feel so proud because you know more than most.
you don't know more than all...

 

[FranC]

what is the difference between a jew trying to go back to mosaic law. and people inn the church trying to go back to law (does not matter what law it is) They both preach justification by works.. And pauls message to the works based church is just as relevant as it was to the jews back then.

Who can know what the difference is EG?
Do YOU know what the difference is?

Does God agree with YOU?

Not like YOU have to agree with GOD.

Yeah. Get one little thing wrong, and one is going straight to hell in a handbasket.
That means WE'RE ALL GOING.

See you there.
Oh. You say you won't be there?
How could you be so sure?

I haven't seen much fruit of the Spirit here. Are you sure you have some of that there fruit?

 

[Ariel82]

Accuse people of false pride..,,is that another way you teach your students? Must be a Catholic thing...heard they are big into guilt.

 

[FranC]

I apologize for not distinguishing concepts in the way I express myself.
In my own thinking I have not clearly worked out how faith justifies and purifies us
from sin, when we may not yet resolved various issues in our hearts.

I perceive a living faith means the issues will resolve when we see Christ face to face.
Now without this resolution, one does end up locked in sinless perfectionism, because
sin will be counted against you. Certainly Jesus is implying this talking about if you are caught
in sin by a part of your body, resolution by removing that part is a solution. I regard this
is just an extreme example, because sin is in the desire of the hearts and its expression, and
removal of limbs does not change the way of the heart. But it demonstrates the seriousness
of sin and behaviour and we have no reason to compromise.

And the theology is less important to me than the road we travel, and how we travel along.
We are justified because we desire to be like Christ, not because it is a free ticket of cleansing
or illusion of righteousness but we do not care.

Justification is free.
Sanctification is not free.

Of course, since we cannot have a real discussion here. HOW could we ever discuss the difference?

 

[Ariel82]

Let's sit back and see who Fran decides she should tear down next.,,,

 

[FranC]

what is the difference between a jew trying to go back to mosaic law. and people inn the church trying to go back to law (does not matter what law it is) They both preach justification by works.. And pauls message to the works based church is just as relevant as it was to the jews back then.

Could you , like, tell me which Church teaches justification by works?
I don't know of any.

I MIGHT be wrong --- one never knows, does one??

 

[Ariel82]

How does one "buy" sanctification?

Thought it was just following the Holy Spirit?

Let's see what Rabbi Fran has to teach?

 

[sevenseas]

maybe if people report this ridiculous insult festival the thread can be shut down?

it's time to shut it down

I think a child would know when it's time to just stop

nobody is winning here and it's disgraceful

 

[FranC]

Taken from the link.

The doctrine of justification states that we possess Christ's righteousness. Although this righteousness which we possess is a true righteousness, it is an alien righteousness. God has willed for us to be given this judicial standing of righteousness, but He has also willed for us to be made righteous in our nature. Millard Erickson said "sanctification is a process by which one's moral condition is brought into conformity with one's legal status before God."18 Sanctification is becoming in actuality what we have already been declared to be in justification. Such a description is befitting of the Biblical data.

If we read this correctly, It is true, Sanctification is the process of trying to match our moral standard, or holiness to our justification. Our justification as the author said earlier, is our "right standing before God" We are declared righteous (the literal meaning of the Greek word) or innocent of any and all wrong doing. It is our life's goal, and the goal of all christian to live a life which strives to match the position we have in Christ.

The question is then.

1. What does this look like (Is it not glorification)
2. Is it possible in this lifetime
3. What happens to a person who does not reach this point of sanctification. are they saved?

MY my EG.
Looks like we're getting somewhere.

Except these questions have all been answered by some here.
So you HAVE NOT been reading along?

OK. So I'll answer them ONCE AGAIN.

1. Do you NOT NOW that glorification comes about only after Death? Is this a kindergarten class for new Christans???

2. I've answered this just a few posts ago. OK. You can't keep up. So here: I believe it is not possible in this lifetime, although I do NOT exclude the possibiliy that it is possible in some cases. EVERYTHING IS POSSIBLE, as they say.

3. What do YOU think happens to a person who does not reach this state if I just said that 99% won't?
I've done nohthing but speak to this.

Give me what you think I've said. It's of no use to repeat the same thing over and over.

ARE YOU PERFECT?
Is that what is needed to get to heaven?
Is not, why not? Your answer will be interesting, and probably correct.

 

[FranC]

Its all one work of one faith, Christ's as the same spirit of faith according to it is wriiten .One faith.... His towards us. Not our dead faith, dead works, towards Him

That would blaspheme the Holy Name by which we are called. We are not to contribute His work of faith that works in us, in respect to our own selves.

Romans 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, "and" the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

§We are NOT to contribute to His works?

So it's all up to God?

Good. I think I'll take the rest of my life off.
I just hate making dinner.
Jesus didn't come down from heaven to make it for me till now.
Maybe Tomorrow evening He could actually start to do this.

What nonsense I've heard here...
Go read that link I posted.

 

[Ariel82]

So it still boils down....do you accept the Catholic definition of justification or the Protestant definition?

From your article..

Justification and Sanctification: The Theological and Practical relationship Between the Two Doctrines

Catholic View

The Catholic view of justification is derived primarily from Augustine. Augustine, not knowing Hebrew or Greek, only had the Latin translation at his disposal. The Latin term for the Greek root dikaio is iustifacare. This is a compound word from iustus=righteous, and facare=to do or to make. Augustine took the word at face value and falsely concluded that it meant "to make righteous."
Catholics see justification as beginning at baptism and being fully given by means of the sacraments throughout one's life, and one's good works. To the Catholic, righteousness is intrinsic (imparted) to the believer. Good works are not motivated by the self, but by Holy Spirit.
The Catholic conception of justification contains both the Protestant understanding of justification and sanctification combined together.


*******

The Protestant view of justification, derived from Hebraic and Greek terminology, is that the sinner is considered to be righteous based on the substitutionary death of Christ. Christ's righteousness is counted as though it was the believer's righteousness. In this view justification is external to the believer, being a mere legal pronouncement of a right relationship with God. The believer's righteousness is an alien righteousness, i.e. it does arise from within the believer, but is external to him. The believer is not made righteous in justification, but has Christ's righteousness imputed to his/her account as though it was truly his/hers. The internal aspect of salvation is left to the work of regeneration and sanctification, being conceptually distinct from justification.

 

[FranC]

Justification is more than a one time event.,,, It also effects how we live and our motives.

If we understand justification then we don't do good works to earn salvation but because it is the fruit of being justified and sanctified by Christ work and righteousness.

Oh. We are SANCTIFIED by Christ?

 

[FranC]

You are.... By Position of being "In Christ"



It works for all.

Positional sanctification is not the same as "Conditional" sanctification however.. that is where people get messed up..

NO NO NO.

Why are we sinless in God's eyes?
What happens that makes us seem sinless in HIs eyes.

Come on. It's an easy concept...