Not By Works

[PeterJens]

We are talking about folks here in the forum....not Muslims you know in your head.

Next time if you want to play pretend...give folks a hint that you are going off in theoretical fantasy land.

Ariel - The point about going from an emotional stimulus to the action for instance of
anger to murder or murderous rage, for some people defines who they are.

Now based on the reactions of some, they have not broken down the difference between
a trigger for a feeling and how it works out in them.

So I can only talk in the examples I know. You obviously do not recognise this process
in yourself, so are talking "theoretical fantasy". I know the chain of reactions in my life.

If someone said something I would react in a particular way. It made me think maybe my
response was the trigger to their behaviour towards me, so if I changed my response the
outcome would be different, rather than me feeling hurt or rejected, I could change things
from my end. It helped me understand I am not a predictable action and reaction system,
but a complex interplay of learnt reactions and processes that in Christ I can change.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

ok the only two verses ive seen that can leave room for sin in a righteous man


none that ive seen anyone here post

but these

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

this being NT has conflicted my understanding


Proverbs 24:16

16 For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.

this is OT
talking before Jesus is easier for me to write off because
it also mentions turning back to God rather than falling back to a sinful life

but the 7 times makes it stick in my head
like Gods making a point


please use as little opinion and emotion as possible in your response

always looks like mindless haughty babble to me

 

[FranC]

Great....now can we have cookies?

I like homemade oatmeal and chocolate chips with milk.

Grandma only gave them to us when we went to her house.

LOL

Hey!

No cookies. They make you fat.

Now be a good girl and explain sanctification to me and how it's ALL GOD doing the sanctifying.

Then MAYBE...

 

[blue_ladybug]

Exactly. "For a just man falleth seven times but riseth up" refers to us slipping up but repenting and resolving to TRY to do better.


"But the wicked falleth into mischief". This refers to those who prefer to remain in sin 24/7 and not repent or ask forgiveness.

ok the only two verses ive seen that can leave room for sin in a righteous man


none that ive seen anyone here post

but these

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

this being NT has conflicted my understanding


Proverbs 24:16

16 For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.

this is OT
talking before Jesus is easier for me to write off because
it also mentions turning back to God rather than falling back to a sinful life

but the 7 times makes it stick in my head
like Gods making a point

 

[Ariel82]

Only if you mean by the work of God.

Show scriptures that SALVATION is started by faith but kept by works?

Galatians 3New International Version (NIV)

3 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?[a] 4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[c]

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Exactly. "For a just man falleth seven times but riseth up" refers to us slipping up but repenting and resolving to TRY to do better.


"But the wicked falleth into mischief". This refers to those who prefer to remain in sin 24/7 and not repent or ask forgiveness.

dont ignore that there are those who DO and teach

(but if someone does id suggest its of God not he)

 

[FranC]

Ariel - The point about going from an emotional stimulus to the action for instance of
anger to murder or murderous rage, for some people defines who they are.

Now based on the reactions of some, they have not broken down the difference between
a trigger for a feeling and how it works out in them.

So I can only talk in the examples I know. You obviously do not recognise this process
in yourself, so are talking "theoretical fantasy". I know the chain of reactions in my life.

If someone said something I would react in a particular way. It made me think maybe my
response was the trigger to their behaviour towards me, so if I changed my response the
outcome would be different, rather than me feeling hurt or rejected, I could change things
from my end. It helped me understand I am not a predictable action and reaction system,
but a complex interplay of learnt reactions and processes that in Christ I can change.

Wow PJ,

You say something so important here, I'm almost afraid I didn't understand you.

Actually, what Jesus was talking about in the Beatitudes is exactly what you speak of above.

Our reaction to a stimulii IS supposed to be different if we're Christian.

I believe our Christianity is supposed to help in DEFUSING situations. Calming people down, helping the Kingdom of God to be a peaceful place. Not a place of strife and emotional distress.

Have I understood you?

Like on this thread. I've been a little brusque in trying to help some persons see something within themselves.
Those here who now me know for sure this is not my character.

Of course a Christian should not be arguing with a loud voice but only discussing. Some here do this and some here do not and only intensify feelings of anger or misunderstandings, or who knows what else people might be feeling.

We have a Young Christian here who feel like he is being told that it's OK to sin.
THIS IS MY POINT EXACTLY --- about how we're to be very careful in how we explain Christian doctrine. It could so easily be misunderstood...

 

[BillG]

No cookies. They make you fat.

That reminds of an incident many years ago.

My wife asked me if the dress she was wearing made her look fat.

Without thinking I replied "No it's all the chocolate and cake you eat that does that"

I soon saw the errors of my ways. 3 days later my left blackened eye started to open up and the right one the following day.

 

[blue_ladybug]

We all still sin sometimes. Even you, and me, and Peter and everyone here. We can learn from our sins. We can learn from other people's sins.

dont ignore that there are those who DO and teach

 

[FranC]

Galatians 3New International Version (NIV)

3 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?[a] 4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[c]

This is referring to the Jews who didn't understand what Paul was preaching.
They wanted to go back to the LAW and abandon Grace.
It's a little scary to live under grace--- it's so much easier to just be told what to do.
Some Christians are like this too.

This does not apply to sanctification.

J and S are concepts. Biblical of course, but they need to be learned on their own merit. Like the Holy Trinity.

Can't you just explain what Sanctification is?? (like I did)

 

[Ariel82]

As has been shown this thread is about Justification which is the foundation found in Christ and of which no one can be saved.

If people have a TRUE foundation in Christ then they would seek to follow the Holy spirit and these verses would hold true:

Galatians
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted. 2 Carry each other’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. 3 If anyone thinks they are something when they are not, they deceive themselves. 4 Each one should test their own actions. Then they can take pride in themselves alone, without comparing themselves to someone else, 5 for each one should carry their own load. 6 Nevertheless, the one who receives instruction in the word should share all good things with their instructor.

7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

The above is about sanctification of how to walk with the Holy Spirit, which can only be done by putting to death the deeds of the flesh.

This requires that People drink the milk and truly understand justification.then eat the meat and discern good from evil...works that glorify God from works that freed the flesh and pride.

 

[Ariel82]

This is referring to the Jews who didn't understand what Paul was preaching.
They wanted to go back to the LAW and abandon Grace.
It's a little scary to live under grace--- it's so much easier to just be told what to do.
Some Christians are like this too.

This does not apply to sanctification.

J and S are concepts. Biblical of course, but they need to be learned on their own merit. Like the Holy Trinity.

Can't you just explain what Sanctification is?? (like I did)

Yeah...but it does apply to justification. Which is what this thread is about.

 

[FranC]

That reminds of an incident many years ago.

My wife asked me if the dress she was wearing made her look fat.

Without thinking I replied "No it's all the chocolate and cake you eat that does that"

I soon saw the errors of my ways. 3 days later my left blackened eye started to open up and the right one the following day.

Sometimes we have to learn lessons the HARD WAY!!

Just remember this:

1. When a woman looks in the mirror she sees a perfect size 8. Maybe 46 in England?

2. When a woman tells you she wants the truth ---- dontcha believe it. Next time it'll be your right eye...

 

[FranC]

Yeah...but it does apply to justification. Which is what this thread is about.

But then why are you posting something that tells us about how we live...

Instead of how we get saved...?

 

[BillG]

Sometimes we have to learn lessons the HARD WAY!!

Just remember this:

1. When a woman looks in the mirror she sees a perfect size 8. Maybe 46 in England?

2. When a woman tells you she wants the truth ---- dontcha believe it. Next time it'll be your right eye...

oh so when she said tell me the truth my response of "you can't handle truth" was wrong?

This is a size 46 in England, if that's a size 8 where you are what constitutes skinny

 

[NoNameMcgee]

For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

What is God saying here.....


i may have been wrong to argue

i wont deny the power of God


but it is definitely wrong

my way of going about this


im sorry to everyone here that read my words

and ill listen more than speak from this point out

i dont care if i was wrong

just want to know Gods truth

 

[Ariel82]

Sanctification happens in two parts. Just as there are two types of righteousness: alien and proper.

Alien righteousness is the righteousness that make up our breastplate of porotection...it is Christ's righteousness imparted to us.

Proper righteousness is the fruit of being given the alien righteousness of Christ and what we gain by learning to live godly lives and do good works. It is what is judged as either gold, silver precious stones, hay or stubble.., It is what is burnt up but the person can still be saved if they have the alien righteousness of Christ clothing them.

Sanctification is first God washing is clean and placing within us a new heart that seems His will. Then it is learning to walk and follow the Holy spirit, putting to death the deeds of the flesh by walking in His light. Allow God to change your beliefs and desires to match His.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No EG
Sometimes a Christian Brother can cause one to stumble.
Check out these verses:

Romans 15:12-13
1 Corinthians 8:13

('please don't tell me it's talking about eating meat)

I see NNM trying so hard to follow God's word, and so many here discouraging him.
This is being a stumbling block to a fellow Christian.

You think you stand before God and get to excuse a sin, because a brother made you stumble You have more issues and problems than anyone can bother.

A brother can encourage a brother to sin, Or tempt them. But they can not make a person do anything.

 

[PeterJens]

What you don't get PeterJens is folks are talking about Justification and not sanctification...which is why you make inaccurate statements like this:
Maybe if you could realize the topic being discussed you wouldn't get so confused and make so many strawmen.

This makes me laugh Ariel.
It is obvious we are talking about both sanctification and justification.
You cannot talk about one without the other, because one is about how in faith we are
looked at, as being righteous despite our flaws and failings and how we are being
sanctified into the likeness of Christ as we walk with Him.

So I am neither off subject or getting things wrong, you just do not like what I am saying
or how I am expressing it. I would honestly say what do you not like?

If you go with the extreme view all is grace and to hold God will judge sin is to be in unbelief
and trampling on the cross, so an anti-Christ, which some claim, then I can understand your
opposition, but this is not your position.

And neither am I a sinless perfectionist, I am always someone saying we must strive to walk
like Christ, to live a pure, holy life without hint of sexual immorality. From the expression of
some they reject this completely. But to do so is to rebel against scripture. This has always
been my argument, direction of travel is key, and having faith that Christ will complete the work He
has started in us, if we remain faithful to Him.