Son's of God Genesis 6:1-8

[Johnny_B]

I've used most newer translations and found the KJV to be the inerrant word of God, I tossed the other bibles in the trash can. We can't come to the truth by studying error.

That's cool, at the same time no translation in the inerrant word of God do the copyist mistakes and the Textus Receptus are old manuscipts they have found more papyri since the Textus Receptus. When I first came to the Lord the first two fellowships I attended were both high on the KJV. The first one was very legalistic, the second was not far behind. For me the way it broken down in single verses has caused many to single out verses the make a doctrine. New believes have no idea that the book is written just like any other book, with a story line and a context that needs to be followed.

Case in point this topic, people look at Genesis 6:2, 4 and wonder who are these characters, so they go here and there to get a handle on it. When a simple follow of the story line in context tells you who they are. These two verse do not stand alone or are they from a different story line outside of the context. Even 6:3 when read it sounds as if it's saying that man is bring compare to another being of flesh or that there are others with the same type of flesh, but when taking the overall context there is no one else but man as being flesh, so the Lord can not be comparing to too other flesh because the Lord has never created another life form with flesh like man, animals have flesh, but as Paul says in I Corinthians 15 it's a different type of flesh.

It's obvious by your handle that you have strong feelings for the KJV 1611, if you read some articles about it, it's not so great, does it contain the word of God, yes, does it have copyist errors, yes. There is so much more information on the Koíne Greek now as compared to back in 1611 and at the turn of the sceneries of 1800 & 1900 the discovery of papyri in dumps in Egypt has given us so must more info in the Greek of NT times.

I like to use both the NKJV and the ESV, I'm not big on the NIV. But if that's what you feel comfortable with go for it, it's not a salvation issue although some may think it is. God bless.

 

[CS1]

so psalm 50 and 97 are teaching that men can go back and forth from the heavens? i dont see that at all.

No that is not what it is saying you can learn from the heaven by Looking up the Maggi never left the ground yet learned how to follow a star Gen chapter one verse 14 says:

14 [FONT=&quot]And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

The [/FONT][FONT=&quot]firmament is in the heaven that men can see and study and know as God has made them to be known. [/FONT]

 

[valiant]

I know it's a lot to read, but it you bear with me, you will understand where I'm get the conclusion from, it's in the context. Please give it a read. It would be nice if someone would do the same type of contextual brake down to show fallen angels that way we have something to work with.

But the coming of the bene Elohim, as with the coming of Satan in chapter 3, breaks Suddenly into the narrative. It is the other side of the picture. But 'the daughters of 'adam' quite clearly refers back to the daughters of Seth which comes just prior to it in the narrative. THAT is exegesis.

Genesis 6:2, 4 didn't just fall out of the sky, to interrupt the context.

But it didn't interrupt the context. It explained why the daughters of Seth had become evil enough to be destroyed. It was right in context. You've just convinced yourself because you wanted to.

, with outside chapters for two verses then they are gone, with man suffering the judgement for their wickedness.

lol they disappeared because of the Flood. But their offspring suffered the judgment.

That the fallen angel synopsis, of the story, they interrupt the story line of the two genealogies in 6:2,

Explaining WHY the daughters of men had brought disaster on the human race by succumbing to their wiles.

verse 4, there were Nephilim or evil people on the earth in the days that the two genealogies started marrying and have children.

Nephilim means more than evil people. They were a special breed. And it had nothing to do with the two lines getting married. There were thousands of daughter of 'adam, including Sethites, Cainites, and many other descendants of other sons of Adam. They were ALL sons and daughters of 'adam.

6:5 the LORD sees that mans sin is great on the earth and that man has evil thoughts all they time. Verse 6 He was sorry He made man and it grieved His heart. Verse 7 He will destroy every living creature that He created, verse 8 the story line of Adam the genealogy that is to carry Eve's Seed (Jesus Luke 3:23-38) with Noah, then in chapter 11 Abram is born to this genealogy to close out the context and start a new one up until 50:26 in Egypt.

Why? Because the demonic influence has spread throughout the human race.

What does the old covenant have to do with Genesis, Adams covenant would apply here, not the old covenant. What was Adam's covenant, it is in.

Genesis 1:28 & 2:16-17 “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

So what does this covenant do? It says be fruitful and multiply. Which is what they had done. But they had gone beyond bounds. They had BROKEN the covenant. That was why God was excessively angry.

and

“You may surely eat of every tree of the garden,17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

THAT covenant was in shreds.

There is no definition of sons of God as of yet, no mention of angels or man, it's undefined at the time.

But why was it undefined if he expected us to relate the sons of Elohim back to them? The fact it that the bene Elohim had not yet appeared.

But we need to look at what is happening with Adam's family and stick to the context and it defines who the sons of God are,

But it doesn't. If he had wanted to the author would have used the term bene Elohim. But the phrase is only used ever of supernatural beings.

here's where I should made it more clear when I use the word "genealogy" when speaking of Adam and Cain, it's simply to separate them because they went different ways.

As had the other direct sons of Adam. But are you claiming there was no intermarriage between the direct offspring of Adam? They all kept separate.?

Genesis 4:13-14, 16 Cain said to the Lord, “My punishment is greater than I can bear.14 Behold, you have driven me today away from the ground, and from your face I shall be hidden. I shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.” and 16 Then Cain went away from the presence of the Lord and settled in the land of Nod, east of Eden." Verse 20 Jabel was the father of those that lived in tents and had live stock. By these verses Cain is not following Adam or that part of his family or genealogy.

So all the sons of Adam intermarried except for Cain's? Adam had many genealogies by his many sons. Cain's is given to show what happened to Cain' descendants. Then the main narrative begins again with Seth, and the daughter of 'adam are explained.

Notice verse 14 Cain say he will be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth, then in verse 16 Cain went away or out as the NKJV puts it, out from the presence of the L

ORD and builds a city called Nod, which means

wandering.

In other words he left a place were there was some visible evidence of YHWH and went into the desert? But what of the remainder of Adam's many sons?

Verse 20 Jabel was the father of those that lived in tents and had live stock. So Cain left the area around Eden or went outside the area close to Eden, verse 17 tells us about the city and that he had a son, Enoch. All of Cain's genealogy seemed to be living as he was outside of the presence of the LORD and one of his sons committed the same sin that he did, by killing a young man verse 23, with verse 24 saying, "If Cain's revenge is sevenfold, the Lament's is seventy-sevenfold."

Except it was in self defence.

I find that interesting, because in 3:15 the LORD

prophecied that Eve's Seed would crush the devils head and here with what Jesus was talking about in Matthew 18:22 in the parable of the unforgiving servant, 22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you seven times, but seventy-seven times.”

How does the crushing of the serpent's head tie in with this? And Matt 18.22 says seventy times seven.

So Cain's genealogy is following in his footsteps and there is only mention of one female being born to his genealogy in 4:22 "The sister of Tubal-cain was Naaman." it is interesting that she is not called a daughter, but a sister, she is the only female that is not a wife that is mentioned in Cain's genealogy.

So she bears no resemblance to the 'daughters of 'adam' in chapter 6?

Now in Adam's we see in Genesis 4:25 that a new son is born to Adam and Eve and here's what Eve said,

“God has appointed for me another offspring instead of Abel, for Cain killed him.” Why is this important, it's because in Abel here Seed would be carried on, in Abel by his sacrifice it shows that he had a relationship with the LORD ​or that his heart was towards the LORD by his sacrifice.

Why should Abel's seed be carried on?. Abel was dead. She merely said that she had another son instead of Abel. Both Abel's and Cain's sacrifices were acceptable to God. One was a blood sacrifice the other was a grain sacrifice.

With verse 4:17 saying that Cain went out east of Eden, that must mean that Adam and his genealogy stayed around Eden, in the presence of the Lord since Cain went east and out of the presence of the Lord.

And his many genealogies, He had many sons, all with their genealogies.

There were no

guide lines at this time on offerings to the LORD​ it was purely from the heart and Abel's was pleasing to the LORD.

Cain was not rejected because of his offering but because he had not behaved well. Each brought of the fruit that they had garnered.

So by how Eve named Seth is an indication that he was going to carry the Seed of Eve.

So none of Adam's other many sons bore the seed of Eve.? Eve just named Seth because he was the next born after Abel's death.

Now verse 26 is telling as well, "at that time people began to call on the name of the LORD" with Cain's line wandering about outside the presence of the LORD​ it seems that it's referring to

Adam and his genealogy or they will follow the covenant that Adam and the LORD have in 1:26 to "be fruitful and multiply".

Adam had many sons and many genealogies (even though not given). Why are you ignoring them?

Genesis 5:1-32 shows how they were following that covenant with 9 verse saying that "sons and daughters" were born to that member that was carrying on Adam's genealogy in Luke 3:23-38 that gives the genealogy from Adam to Jesus.

It doesn't show that they were following the covenant. Only one or two. But it certainly demonstrates who the daughters of 'adam were. They included among them daughters of Seth.

Genesis 5

4 The days of Adam after he fathered Seth were 800 years; and he had other sons and daughters...7 Seth lived after he fathered Enosh 807 years and had other sons and daughters...10 Enosh lived after he fathered Kenan 815 years and had other sons and daughters...13 Kenan lived after he fathered Mahalalel 840 years and had other sons and daughters...16 Mahalalel lived after he fathered Jared 830 years and had other sons and daughters...19 Jared lived after he fathered Enoch 800 years and had other sons and daughters...22 Enoch walked with God after he fathered Methuselah 300 years and had other sons and daughters...26 Methuselah lived after he fathered Lamech 782 years and had other sons and daughters...30 Lamech lived after he fathered Noah 595 years and had other sons and daughters. Interesting side note Lamech lived 777 years.

By these 9 verse we can see that Adam's genealogy is following the covenant that Adam had with the LORD

How does it show this. Only Enoch is picked out as special.

and Cain and his genealogy is not, they are wandering out-side the presence of the LORD.

And what of all the other genealogies of Adam's various sons? Have they all gone astray?

In all of the history of Cain's genealogy no mention of a daughter being born to anyone of them, only that

Tubal-cain had a sister named Naaman.

So he is not interested in the daughters of Cain.

The story does not end with Genesis 5:32,

But ch 5 explains where the daughters of 'adam in the next chapter came from.

verse 29 gives the reason for the name Noah being given to him and the last three verses mention Noah by name, with chapter 5 ending with the last three verses mentioning Noah in them and 6:8 showing that the story line continues, with Noah finding favor with the LORD.

So Noah was the one who found favour with God.

6:1 starts with, "

Now it came to pass,"when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them,"

The daughters mentioned in the previous chapter. That is the obvious conclusion from the CONTEXT.

Which men began to multiply on the face of the earth, because Adam's genealogy was multiplying by having sons and daughters born to them.

Naturally the daughters of 'adam previously mentioned in Seth's line..

So who else is there on the face of the earth that has no record of daughters being born to them and also that there are not many of them being born?

LOL so who says not many daughters were born to Cain?. That is purely YOUR surmise to bolster a very weak case. But there were in fact thousands of daughters born to Adam's many children. Why do you ignore them? They are ALL daughters of 'adam

Cain, sorry that is the only genealogy other than Adam's in the context of the story line, with 6:8 confirming that 6:2, 4 are part of the context of the story line.

But the story line includes MANY sons and daughters of Adam. And why should the genealogies be connected to a general phrase like 'the children of men', unless of course it is to show where daughters came from, eg the children of Seth.

There is no place for angels, they do not fit the story line, it just does not work.

Well it seems to work very well for large numbers of people. It gives a REASON for the Flood destroying all men.

As for where did the giants or nephilim come from it does not say, all it says is. "There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward," they were already there,

so they are mentioned suddenly with no background and nothing in the previous context to explain them? Possibly BECAUSE they are connected with the bene Elohim. Why else mention them? To explain the bene elohim?

it does not say that they were born to the sons of God and the daughters of men, read what it says after they are mentioned as being on the

face of the earth in "those days, and also afterwards,".

No it suggests that the Nephilim was an alternative name for the bene Elohim.

What days and after is it talking about, "

when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them."

In their days and afterwards. Exactly the time when the bene elohinm were around.

So the giants/Nephilim were already on the face of the earth when the sons of God came into the daughters of men.

So the otherwise unexplained Nephilim were the bene Elohim. Exactly. Otherwise why mention them n context at all?

Who were those children being born to the sons of God and the daughters of men,

"Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown."

So the mighty men of old who lived late on before the Flood are ALL connected with the Sons of God. Seems strange if the bene Elohim were simply one out of many genealogies.

The offspring of the marriages of 6:2, were the mighty men of old, men of renown, not giants/Nephilim they were already on the face of the earth, when the consummation of those marriages took place. You asked how did they come about, the giants. I don't know it does not say

HMMM. You suggest that the bene Elohim MUST be mentioned earlier then claim that the Nephilim in the same context are not. It seems odd to me. Almost capricious of you.

. If you read CS1's definition on Nephilim you will see giants is not a very good translation of the word (I see you've read that definition). The Nephilim were evil people/bullies and so on.

Later the word is applied to excessively large men.

Look at how the ISV translates it "The Nephilim were on the earth at that time (and also immediately afterward), when those divine beings were having sexual relations with those human women, who gave birth to children for them. These children became the heroes and legendary figures of ancient times." This sounds kind of like it agrees with your position, that the sons of God were not men, but does not attribute the offspring as the Nephilim.

No it says that the Nephilim were the bene Elohim.

But notice it calls them divine beings, who could be man or angels, all we know is that they call them divine beings

No only angels would be called divine beings. Get real.

, but the Nephilim are not the children born from the marriages of 6:2 and the sexual relations of 6:4.

No they were the bene Elohim

Back to the context of the storyline, do you see why I come to the conclusion that the sons of God are the sons of Adam

No not at all. Bene elohim is NEVER used of the sons of Adam

and if you go to Luke 3:38 it calls Adam the son of God or of God.

No it says 'of God'. Sons is assumed by those translations that give it, and it is far removed from the original expression. And Adam was NOT a 'son of God' anywhere in the old testament.

As I've mentioned before the son of God are mention as such because I see 4:26 were people began to call on the name of the LORD​

This only signifies formal worship and is merely said to have occurred at the same time as the birth of Enosh. Did they not worship YHWH before? And did the many other sons of Adam not call on the name of the LORD?

with the evidence pointing to Adam's genealogy or is in Adam's genealogy, as the ones staying in covenant relationship with the LORD by following Genesis 1:26 and 2:16-17 for that matter, just because they had no excess to the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

But all the sons of Adam apart from Cain stayed in covenant relationship with the Lord, not just Seth.

Where Cain and his genealogy were not being fruitful and multiplying until 6:1 when they began to have daughters born to them and they were multiplying, which they did not have or it was not record, the sudden mention of daughters being born to men in the context fit with Cain being call men

.

This is called special pleading. It doesn't mention Cain's offspring. Why select Cain? It was ALL daughters of 'adam, and that would include the daughters of many of his sons. including specifically Seth.

 

[jaybird88]

No that is not what it is saying you can learn from the heaven by Looking up the Maggi never left the ground yet learned how to follow a star Gen chapter one verse 14 says:

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

The firmament is in the heaven that men can see and study and know as God has made them to be known.

i dont follow what your getting at. your saying this assembly took place in 2 places at same time? the men here and the Father there, with the Father presiding over it all from the heavens? i dont see that either.

your not mad about the meany weenie comment are you?

 

[jaybird88]

But the coming of the bene Elohim, as with the coming of Satan in chapter 3, breaks Suddenly into the narrative. It is the other side of the picture. But 'the daughters of 'adam' quite clearly refers back to the daughters of Seth which comes just prior to it in the narrative. THAT is exegesis.
[/FONT]

according to JBs context philosophy Satan has to be a man, anything else takes you out of context.

i asked you a question way back on post 492

how would one know the sons of the Most High in G6 are the same as the sons of the Most High in the NT? being as one is in Greek and the other is in biblical Hebrew?

 

[Denadii]

By oldhermit

I. The Disintegration of the God Culture and the Dominance of the Godless Culture, 1-12.

A. What was the cause? The marriage of two very diverse cultures.

1. Sons of God – the descendants of Seth
2. Daughters of men – the descendants of Cain.

B. Results – The abandonment of God.

1. Judgment is pronounced. God gives humanity 120 years until the destruction of the flood.
2. The rise of the Nephilim - This is not necessarily causal since they were already in the land.
3. The collapse of moral ethics. There seems to be a progression of wickedness from verse three. Seems to be an undisclosed amount of time lapsed between verse 3 and verse 12. The heart is now only evil continually. Seems to be no redeeming value left.
4. God is heart-broken. Destruction of all life is pronounced, 7.
5. The earth is filled with violence.

C. God preserves the righteous remnant. God always sees and remembers the righteous, 8. In this, God tempers judgment with mercy.

Do you know that there is absolutely nothing in the bible to back up this Sethite theory? Nothing!

 

[CS1]

i dont follow what your getting at. your saying this assembly took place in 2 places at same time? the men here and the Father there, with the Father presiding over it all from the heavens? i dont see that either.

your not mad about the meany weenie comment are you?

LOl you give yourself to much credit LOL you have never seen me mad. hahaha good try .

 

[Denadii]

Genesis 6:4 is pretty compelling - sons of God mated with daughters of men and the daughters of men bare giants.

It could be either angels or saved men as both are called the sons of God but saved men don't sire giants.

I agree....Sons of God or the Hebrew 'Benei HaʼElōhīm' Not Elohim. 'Elohim' means 'God' and 'Benei ha' means "Sons of" or 'beings made by'
Adam was a son of God..He was made by God....Cain, Seth and everyone else were sons of Adam... We know that Adam did not kidnap the daughters of men. The Bible does not even mention "Daughters of Adam" or "Daughters of Seth"
The entire Sethite theory is nothing but unsubstantiated conjecture. NOTHING in the bible backs it up.

 

[Denadii]

Son of God was just about never applied to any man but Adam and Jesus. To be a son of God(except in a metaphoric sense) one CANNOT have a human father. Men were identified by the name of their father, son of God means they came directly from God and not through a human father.

OK But the usage here is not singular..Bt says "SONS" of God...Now it's different. It's talking about more than one. Right? So it cannot be Adam..And we know it was not Jesus....But the angels were created by God...making them sons of God. Yup...It has to be fallen angels kidnapping the women and, I see it s kidnapping and rape..But nephilim resulted....

 

[Denadii]

In these two texts, we see the presentation of the sons of God. The presentation of one's self before God is precisely what those in the Levitical system did who brought their sacrifices to the altar. God told them that when they brought their gifts to the altar he would meet them their and bless them and forgive their sins. This is indicative of an act of worship. There is no reason that this is not simply referring to the worshipers of God - sons of God who lived in the time of Job. It seems rather obvious that Job is one of these and God points him out to Satan and asks have you considered my servant Job? Would this not seem to better fit the context?

The Levitical system was not yet instituted in Genesis 6 This system was not even started until after the flood.

 

[Denadii]

I am sorry it is taking so long to respond. Having a lot of service issues here.

It is the same principle we see in God's warning to Israel before they entered Canaan. "You shall not give your daughters to their sons, nor shall you take their daughters for your sons." It does not suggest that the opposite arrangement was not also true. The particular emphases in Gen 6 seems to be related to the consequences of the sons of Seth taking the daughters of Cain. "And his daughters might play the harlot with their gods and cause your sons also to play the harlot with their gods." This seems to be precisely what happened leading up the Gen 6.

That command was not until Chapter 11 At Genesis chapter 6, taking a wife from one or the other was just fine...God commanded they not do that waay down the line

 

[CS1]

OK But the usage here is not singular..Bt says "SONS" of God...Now it's different. It's talking about more than one. Right? So it cannot be Adam..And we know it was not Jesus....But the angels were created by God...making them sons of God. Yup...It has to be fallen angels kidnapping the women and, I see it s kidnapping and rape..But nephilim resulted....

hmmm did not see that in the chapter context you base that on one verse in the chapter when it is man clearly being judges by God.

 

[Denadii]

That is quite an assumption. We know from the mouth of the Lord that angels are not sexual beings. To insist that these in Gen 6 are the offspring of a union between angels and humans makes a number of unwarranted assumptions. This assumes that the term 'sons of god' can only refer to angels. It assumes that the angels which were cast down from heaven were cast down upon the earth. It assumes that if they were cast down upon the earth that they assumed human form. It assumes that if they took human form they became sexual creatures. It assumes that they were sufficiently genetically compatible with human DNA to produce offspring. It assumes that the appearance of the giants in the land can only be explained through this quantum leap of conjecture, none of which is supplied by any biblical text.

Really, O.H., The Word says Matt. 22:30 we know angels neither marry nor are given in marriage. It says nothing about capabilities... The Word says that the result was nephilim...no conjecture...Humans produce humans...Angels and Humans produce monsters

 

[garee]

It kind of nails it doesn't it... the sons of God WERE NOT human.

Yes if not they would be called the sons of men rather than Christians a word that denotes residents of the city of Christ(the founder) the new heavenly celistrial Jerusalem


A clear distinction between the things of God and those of men and the other creation angel as those who have no form must be made or a person can fall into the methodology of the antichrist, who has no form, Satan

.Good example below.

Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. But he turned, and said unto Peter, “Get thee behind me, "Satan”: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. Mat 16:24

Peter denied Christ but because eternal God cannot deny he paid the full wage of Peter’s sin, Peter by grace was not sent a strong delusion to believe the lie but rather by grace according to His work He reinstated Peter again and again, as it is written

2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
2Ti 2:13 If we believe not,(no faith) yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Not will not, but cannot (impossible)

The little word of which is not towards can carry weight.

The word of (coming from or coming after) denotes the possessor of the one seed (spiritual not seen) who creates spiritual birth or a living birth.

Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

The other of (coming from or coming after) denotes the possessors of the seeds, more than one, of flesh as that seen it gives birth to of the flesh as in a still born.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Another of is born of the imaginations of one mind seeing things that are not there as if they were, saying a new creation (sons of God) mixed with angels who have no dna.have created a new bread of (whatever) .Angels is the kind that cannot multiply. No need to the father of lies does just fine without one.

This only shows some do worship angels the unseen by giving them a body which they have not seen . No need to see spirit messenger that is unless a person is walking by sight.
Hollywood stuff.

 

[Johnny_B]

But the coming of the bene Elohim, as with the coming of Satan in chapter 3, breaks Suddenly into the narrative. It is the other side of the picture. But 'the daughters of 'adam' quite clearly refers back to the daughters of Seth which comes just prior to it in the narrative. THAT is exegesis.
[/FONT]


[/SIZE]

Again you prove my point, you are dealing with my exegete of the context of the storyline, but no one will deal with the actual Scriptures to show how they come to the conclusion of fallen angels. I am not the context or the storyline, which no one will deal with the context or the storyline.

Every time someone does as you've done they further my my point, which is, following the context of the storyline no one can honestly come up with fallen angels. That's why you or anyone else have not done it, because they as you do not want to twist the context of the storyline. Which is honorable in itself, but it does not prove you point. If you honestly think about it, how many times has there been a discussion on any subject and the opposing side always takes the Scriptures and follow the context of the storyline to prove their point.

For some reason with this, no one will do a Scriptural brake down of the context, they have only done brake downs of what I say. Everyone always brings up context in every Scriptural discussion like when dealing with prophecy. So it can only be two things, no one know how to deal with the contextual storyline of any writing, which I highly doubt or they know that if they were to follow the Genesis context leading up to Genesis 6:2, 4 that it does not come up fallen angels.

So as with the other thread, I'm going to have to bow out until someone does a real brake down of the context of the storyline. The only reason I always repeat myself is I don't want anyone playing word games with me, I want it to be plan as day as to what I'm saying.

God Bless.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Really, O.H., The Word says Matt. 22:30 we know angels neither marry nor are given in marriage. It says nothing about capabilities... The Word says that the result was nephilim...no conjecture...Humans produce humans...Angels and Humans produce monsters

You are absolutely correct Denadii. I might also add that those in the resurrection become like the holy angels in heaven, which neither marry nor are given in marriage. Fallen angels are a different story. I truly believe that the angels that are spoken of in 2 Pet.2:4 and Jude 6 who were put in chains of darkness in Tartartus until the great white throne judgment, are those angels who took wives.

"Now it came about, when men began to multiply on the face of the land, and daughters were born to them, that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose."

"The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown."

In the scriptures above, there is a distinction made between mankind and the sons of God, ergo, the sons of god are not of the same genre as mankind.

Below is Enoch's version of Genesis 6:1

"It happened after the sons of men had multiplied in those days, that daughters were born to them, elegant and beautiful. And when the angels, the sons of heaven, beheld them, they became enamored of them, saying to each other: Come, let us select for ourselves wives from the progeny of men, and let us beget children. - Enoch 7:1-2

Below is the International Standard version translation:"Now after the population of human beings had increased throughout the earth, and daughters had been born to them, some divine beings noticed how attractive human women were, so they took wives for themselves from a selection that pleased them."

Below is Enoch's account of Genesis 6:1-4 in detail:

===============================================

It happened after the sons of men had multiplied in those days, that daughters were born to them, elegant and beautiful. And when the angels, the sons of heaven, beheld them, they became enamored of them, saying to each other: Come, let us select for ourselves wives from the progeny of men, and let us beget children.

Then their lead Samyaza said to them; I fear that you may perhaps be indisposed to the performance of this enterprise; and that I alone shall suffer for grievous a crime. But they all answered him and said: We all swear; and bind ourselves by mutual execrations, that we will not change our intention, but execute our projected undertaking.

Then they all swore all together, and all bound themselves by mutual execrations. Their whole number was two hundred, who descended upon Ardis, which is the top of mount Armon. That mountain, therefore, they called Armon, because they had sworn upon it, a nd bound themselves by mutual execrations.

These are the names of their chiefs: Samyaza, who was their leader, Urakabarameel, Akibeel, Tamiel, Ramuel, Danel, Azkeel, Sarakuyal, Asael, Armers, Batraal, Annane, Zavebe, Samsaveel, Ertael, Turel, Yomyael, Arazyal. These were the prefects of the two hundred angels, and the remainder were all with them.

Then they took wives, each choosing for himself; whom they began to approach, and with whom they cohabited; teaching them sorcery, incantation and the dividing of roots and trees:

And they conceiving brought forth giants; whose stature was each three hundred cubits. These devoured all which the labor of men produced; until it became impossible to feed them; when they turned themselves against men, in order to devour them; and began to injure birds, beast, reptiles and fishes, to eat their flesh one after another, and to drink their blood.

Then the earth reproved the unrighteousness.

Moreover Azazyel taught men to make swords, knives, shields, breastplates, made them see that which was behind them and the workmanship of bracelets and ornaments, the use of paint, the beautifying of the eyebrows, the use of stones of every valuable and select kind, and of all sorts of dyes, so that the world became altered. Impiety increased; fornication multiplied; and the transgressed and corrupted all their ways.

Amazarak taught all the sorcerers, and dividers of roots; Armers taught the solution of sorcery; Barkayal taught the observers of the stars; Akibeel taught signs; Tamiel taught astronomy; and Asaredel taught the motion of the moon. And men, being destroyed, cried out; and their voice reached to heaven.

Then Michael and Gabriel, Raphael, Suryal and Uriel, looked down from heaven and saw the quantity of blood which was shed on the earth, and all the iniquity which was done upon it, and said one to another: It is the voice of their cries; The earth deprived of her children has cried even to the gates of heaven.

===============================================

God's response to what the angels had done by taking wives and all that they taught:

===================================================

Then the Most High, the Great and Holy One spoke; And sent Arsayalalyur to the son of Lamech (Noah), Saying: Say to him in my name; Conceal thyself. Then explain to him the consummation which is about to take place; for all the earth shall perish; the waters of a deluge shall come over the whole earth, and all things which are in it shall be destroyed. And now teach him how he may escape, and how his seed may remain in all the earth.

Again the Lord said to Raphael: Bind Azazyel hand and foot; cast him into darkness; and opening the desert which is in Dudael, (Tartartus) cast him in there. Throw upon him hurled and pointed stones; covering him with darkness; There shall he remain forever; cover his face, that he may not see the light. And in the great day of judgment (Rev.20:10, Matt.25:41)

Restore the earth, which the angels have corrupted; and announce life to it, that I may revive it.

All the sons of men shall not perish in consequence of every secret, by which the Watchers have destroyed, and which they have taught their offspring.

All the earth has been corrupted by the teaching of the work of Azazyel. To him therefore ascribe the whole crime.

To Gabriel also the Lord said: Go to the biters, to the reprobates, to the children of fornication; and destroy the children of fornication; the offspring of the Watchers, from among men; bring them forth, and send them one against another. Let them perish by mutual slaughter; for length of days shall not be theirs.

They shall all entreat thee, but their fathers shall not obtain their wishes respecting them; for they shall hope for eternal life, and that they may live, each of them, five hundred years.

To Michael likewise the Lord said: Go and announce his crime to Samyaza, and to the others who are with him, who have been associated with women, that they might be polluted with all their impurity. And when all their sons shall be slain, when they shall see the perdition of their beloved, bind them for seventy generations underneath the earth (2 Pet.2:4, Jude 6), even to the day of judgment, and of consummation , until the judgment, the effect of which will last forever, be completed.

======================================================

This was just a little excerpt form Enoch regarding the sons of God, those angels who took wives from the progeny of mankind and all that they taught and thereby corrupting mankind, which was the main reason for the flood. These angels, the sons of God, are also who 2 Pet.2:4 and Jude 6 is referring to.

 

[Denadii]

You are absolutely correct Denadii. I might also add that those in the resurrection become like the holy angels in heaven, which neither marry nor are given in marriage. Fallen angels are a different story. I truly believe that the angels that are spoken of in 2 Pet.2:4 and Jude 6 who were put in chains of darkness in Tartartus until the great white throne judgment, are those angels who took wives.

"Now it came about, when men began to multiply on the face of the land, and daughters were born to them, that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose."

"The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown."

In the scriptures above, there is a distinction made between mankind and the sons of God, ergo, the sons of god are not of the same genre as mankind.

Below is Enoch's version of Genesis 6:1

"It happened after the sons of men had multiplied in those days, that daughters were born to them, elegant and beautiful. And when the angels, the sons of heaven, beheld them, they became enamored of them, saying to each other: Come, let us select for ourselves wives from the progeny of men, and let us beget children. - Enoch 7:1-2

Below is the International Standard version translation:"Now after the population of human beings had increased throughout the earth, and daughters had been born to them, some divine beings noticed how attractive human women were, so they took wives for themselves from a selection that pleased them."

Below is Enoch's account of Genesis 6:1-4 in detail:

===============================================

It happened after the sons of men had multiplied in those days, that daughters were born to them, elegant and beautiful. And when the angels, the sons of heaven, beheld them, they became enamored of them, saying to each other: Come, let us select for ourselves wives from the progeny of men, and let us beget children.

Then their lead Samyaza said to them; I fear that you may perhaps be indisposed to the performance of this enterprise; and that I alone shall suffer for grievous a crime. But they all answered him and said: We all swear; and bind ourselves by mutual execrations, that we will not change our intention, but execute our projected undertaking.

Then they all swore all together, and all bound themselves by mutual execrations. Their whole number was two hundred, who descended upon Ardis, which is the top of mount Armon. That mountain, therefore, they called Armon, because they had sworn upon it, a nd bound themselves by mutual execrations.

These are the names of their chiefs: Samyaza, who was their leader, Urakabarameel, Akibeel, Tamiel, Ramuel, Danel, Azkeel, Sarakuyal, Asael, Armers, Batraal, Annane, Zavebe, Samsaveel, Ertael, Turel, Yomyael, Arazyal. These were the prefects of the two hundred angels, and the remainder were all with them.

Then they took wives, each choosing for himself; whom they began to approach, and with whom they cohabited; teaching them sorcery, incantation and the dividing of roots and trees:

And they conceiving brought forth giants; whose stature was each three hundred cubits. These devoured all which the labor of men produced; until it became impossible to feed them; when they turned themselves against men, in order to devour them; and began to injure birds, beast, reptiles and fishes, to eat their flesh one after another, and to drink their blood.

Then the earth reproved the unrighteousness.

Moreover Azazyel taught men to make swords, knives, shields, breastplates, made them see that which was behind them and the workmanship of bracelets and ornaments, the use of paint, the beautifying of the eyebrows, the use of stones of every valuable and select kind, and of all sorts of dyes, so that the world became altered. Impiety increased; fornication multiplied; and the transgressed and corrupted all their ways.

Amazarak taught all the sorcerers, and dividers of roots; Armers taught the solution of sorcery; Barkayal taught the observers of the stars; Akibeel taught signs; Tamiel taught astronomy; and Asaredel taught the motion of the moon. And men, being destroyed, cried out; and their voice reached to heaven.

Then Michael and Gabriel, Raphael, Suryal and Uriel, looked down from heaven and saw the quantity of blood which was shed on the earth, and all the iniquity which was done upon it, and said one to another: It is the voice of their cries; The earth deprived of her children has cried even to the gates of heaven.

===============================================

God's response to what the angels had done by taking wives and all that they taught:

===================================================

Then the Most High, the Great and Holy One spoke; And sent Arsayalalyur to the son of Lamech (Noah), Saying: Say to him in my name; Conceal thyself. Then explain to him the consummation which is about to take place; for all the earth shall perish; the waters of a deluge shall come over the whole earth, and all things which are in it shall be destroyed. And now teach him how he may escape, and how his seed may remain in all the earth.

Again the Lord said to Raphael: Bind Azazyel hand and foot; cast him into darkness; and opening the desert which is in Dudael, (Tartartus) cast him in there. Throw upon him hurled and pointed stones; covering him with darkness; There shall he remain forever; cover his face, that he may not see the light. And in the great day of judgment (Rev.20:10, Matt.25:41)

Restore the earth, which the angels have corrupted; and announce life to it, that I may revive it.

All the sons of men shall not perish in consequence of every secret, by which the Watchers have destroyed, and which they have taught their offspring.

All the earth has been corrupted by the teaching of the work of Azazyel. To him therefore ascribe the whole crime.

To Gabriel also the Lord said: Go to the biters, to the reprobates, to the children of fornication; and destroy the children of fornication; the offspring of the Watchers, from among men; bring them forth, and send them one against another. Let them perish by mutual slaughter; for length of days shall not be theirs.

They shall all entreat thee, but their fathers shall not obtain their wishes respecting them; for they shall hope for eternal life, and that they may live, each of them, five hundred years.

To Michael likewise the Lord said: Go and announce his crime to Samyaza, and to the others who are with him, who have been associated with women, that they might be polluted with all their impurity. And when all their sons shall be slain, when they shall see the perdition of their beloved, bind them for seventy generations underneath the earth (2 Pet.2:4, Jude 6), even to the day of judgment, and of consummation , until the judgment, the effect of which will last forever, be completed.

======================================================

This was just a little excerpt form Enoch regarding the sons of God, those angels who took wives from the progeny of mankind and all that they taught and thereby corrupting mankind, which was the main reason for the flood. These angels, the sons of God, are also who 2 Pet.2:4 and Jude 6 is referring to.

Good stuff!!

 

[KJV1611]

That's cool, at the same time no translation in the inerrant word of God do the copyist mistakes and the Textus Receptus are old manuscipts they have found more papyri since the Textus Receptus. When I first came to the Lord the first two fellowships I attended were both high on the KJV. The first one was very legalistic, the second was not far behind. For me the way it broken down in single verses has caused many to single out verses the make a doctrine. New believes have no idea that the book is written just like any other book, with a story line and a context that needs to be followed.

Case in point this topic, people look at Genesis 6:2, 4 and wonder who are these characters, so they go here and there to get a handle on it. When a simple follow of the story line in context tells you who they are. These two verse do not stand alone or are they from a different story line outside of the context. Even 6:3 when read it sounds as if it's saying that man is bring compare to another being of flesh or that there are others with the same type of flesh, but when taking the overall context there is no one else but man as being flesh, so the Lord can not be comparing to too other flesh because the Lord has never created another life form with flesh like man, animals have flesh, but as Paul says in I Corinthians 15 it's a different type of flesh.

It's obvious by your handle that you have strong feelings for the KJV 1611, if you read some articles about it, it's not so great, does it contain the word of God, yes, does it have copyist errors, yes. There is so much more information on the Koíne Greek now as compared to back in 1611 and at the turn of the sceneries of 1800 & 1900 the discovery of papyri in dumps in Egypt has given us so must more info in the Greek of NT times.

I like to use both the NKJV and the ESV, I'm not big on the NIV. But if that's what you feel comfortable with go for it, it's not a salvation issue although some may think it is. God bless.

In my opinion 1 Cor 15 backs up "for that he also is flesh".

1 Corinthians 15:39-40 KJV
All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. [40] There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

 

[Johnny_B]

In my opinion 1 Cor 15 backs up "for that he also is flesh".

1 Corinthians 15:39-40 KJV
All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. [40] There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

I hear you as in the Lord was going to judge all flesh on the face of the earth, with 6:12-13, 17 going to your point of the Lord judging all flesh. With 6:9-10 staying with the storyline by giving Noah's generations or genealogies/sons.

I've been going over a book on baptism and read the intro to another, with one of them saying that the flood waters and the Ark are a picture of the Lord's anger towards sin and those that sin. Which the flood waters ties in to our baptism of the Spirit, which is an anti-type or it corresponds to the waters of the flood. Which is an answer of a good conscience towards God but the resurrection of Jesus Christ our Lord. I see the Ark as us being sealed by the promised Spirit until the day of redemption, when we receive our glorified bodies it will be like who Noah and dos family left the Ark, to a new heaven and new earth, because the skies opened up to release it's waters and the earths fountains opened up to release it's waters. Now all was new with no violence, corruption or wickedness.

All this has given me a new view of the flood and isn't that what we should be doing when discussing the Scriptures learning something new. I know there re probably many of you that already knew this, but it's new to me. God Bless Brother.

 

[valiant]

Again you prove my point, you are dealing with my exegete of the context of the storyline, but no one will deal with the actual Scriptures to show how they come to the conclusion of fallen angels. I am not the context or the storyline, which no one will deal with the context or the storyline.

I have done this to you a number of times, but here goes.

1) No men in Gen 1-6, or indeed in the OT, are ever called bene Elohim.
2) In gen 2 & 3 God addresses 'the Elohim' (the heavenly court) as 'we' and 'us'. (No Old Testament person would have dreamed of the Trinity). Thus the 'bene Elohim' are most likely related to them.
3). In 1 sam 28.13 when the medium saw the dead Samuel appear she said, 'I saw an Elohim appearing out of the earth.'
4). In Job 1 & 2 Satan appeared with the bene Elohim before God.
5). In Job 'the morning stars sang together and all the bene Elohim shouted for joy'.
6). When the 'bene elohim' enter into a relationship with the 'daughters of 'adam' in chapter 6
we require an explanation for the unusual offspring. The are not just natural offspring,
7). The sudden appearance of the Nephilim in parallel with the bene Elohim suggest the two are related.
8). When God says of those responsible for the evil which has been wrought in and by men, 'they also are flesh', it suggests there were flesh beings who were not men (angels who had taken fleshly form).

Every time someone does as you've done they further my my point, which is, following the context of the storyline no one can honestly come up with fallen angels.

Before 4th century ad EVERYONE thought the bene Elohim were angels. Thus the Jewish inter-Testamental literature which spoke of fallen angels and men co-habiting. Thus also 2 Peter. You who use the term of the sons of Seth are relatively new on the scene.

That's why you or anyone else have not done it, because they as you do not want to twist the context of the storyline

.

But you HAVE twisted the storyline trying to make out that the sons of men are only Cainites when there are no grounds for it at all

For some reason with this, no one will do a Scriptural brake down of the context, they have only done brake downs of what I say.

we do not believe in huge postings when it can be explained quite simply and easily in less. Nor do we consider the subject merits it. Our exegesis is quickly gathered by anyone interested, YOUR studies are just a laugh.

Everyone always brings up context in every Scriptural discussion like when dealing with prophecy. So it can only be two things, no one know how to deal with the contextual storyline of any writing, which I highly doubt or they know that if they were to follow the Genesis context leading up to Genesis 6:2, 4 that it does not come up fallen angels.

You ignore the context and just look for items which you can twist to mean what you want. Gen 6.1-4 is so obviously speaking of supernatural beings that it hardly merits the trouble we have taken in criticising your approach.

So as with the other thread, I'm going to have to bow out

good.