Not By Works

[PeterJens]

I would say that those who label grace as "cheap" or "greasy" have no idea about grace and or the saving faith of Jesus....I can see one particular member behind his pulpit hammering grace and pushing works and self along with hyper sensationalised spiritualized back flips down the isle for salvation........along with give the dog a bone theology.............

Got not clue what dc means by back flips down the isle.

Idolatry is when something replaces God or the relationship with Him.
Covetousness is one thing, that must be had no matter what, which is idolatry.

Using security in faith as salvation and the reality of a relationship is idolatry also.
No relationship can be called real if there is not a recognition that things are going
badly or things are going well. It is the sign of life to distinguish between the two.

 

[Ariel82]

Titus 3
2 to speak evil of no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing all humility to all men.
3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another.
4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared,
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour,
7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

God's people stand for His truth. Neither attacking nor cowering, but defending His light, love and promises of eternal life,

God's people recognize the truth in these words"

For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another.

And have moved passed the name calling to understand that God calls for His people to do the following:

speak evil of no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing all humility to all men.

 

[PeterJens]

Ummm..this list is incomplete...
The world judges by the fruit..God judges by the Root.
The two things you listed are how the world judges believers.
God sees a persons heart. He knows if the confession of Faith was grounded in Christ or just empty words spoken.
Jesus Christ is our root. He is our foundation. Eternal life and salvation is based on if you trust in Him or in yourself.
We will be judged also by our works but that is a different reward.
Salvation is a gift, not a reward,

I the LORD search the heart and examine the mind, to reward each person according to their conduct, according to what their deeds deserve.
Jeremiah 17:10

So the heart that produces the deeds is important, but the deeds have to be there to
start with.

God does not look at a passive person and looks at their heart and say it is fine.
No God says they are dead, because they are doing nothing.

 

[Grace777x70]

Believers in Christ have a new heart. Live from this new heart where Christ dwells in the new creation. We live in the New Covenant.

We need to have our minds renewed to the reality of being joined as one spirit with the Lord. Live from your new heart that is in Christ and that He has cleansed and moved in.

 

[PeterJens]

Interesting

If I conclude putting security of salvation as the reason you are saved, is idolatry,
I am calling people idolators. No, I am calling putting security of salvation as the cornerstone
of Christian faith is idolatry, and condemning people as not being believers because they do
not follow this belief is the sin of condemnation and judgmentalism.

It is up to people to agree or disagree with this proposition. If they agree this is true, and
the people doing this are commiting idolatry, then they are idolators, but I am not going to
say who is or who is not doing this.

I have known people who have had security of salvation and others who have not. I have
called them both brothers and sisters in the Lord. They have not judged me or said I am
leading people to hell because of my position on security of faith.

The absurd idea that this is the true corruption of the world, when scripture is silent on
this, and scripture itself would be judged as failing. Israel was founded on its walk day to
day with God, through the wilderness and not on eternal ideas of salvation or not.
They were the chosen people of God, but many still rebelled and died. Salvation in a
spiritual sense was not spelt out until Jesus appeared. It was know the heart of God, walk
in His ways and you abided forever with Him, Enoch, Elijah, Moses. Nothing has changed
in this, except the mystery has now been made clear, and the Kingdom of Heaven has come
to earth in the Holy Spirit.

 

[Ariel82]

I the LORD search the heart and examine the mind, to reward each person according to their conduct, according to what their deeds deserve.
Jeremiah 17:10

So the heart that produces the deeds is important, but the deeds have to be there to
start with.

God does not look at a passive person and looks at their heart and say it is fine.
No God says they are dead, because they are doing nothing.

Then He brings them to life.

We were all once dead, until He regenerated us and made us born again,

 

[Ariel82]

Peterjens, I don't believe anyone in this thread worships security anymore than anyone in this thread is going to be a suicide bomber to get virgins in Heaven.

You posted it in response of being attacked. Its a very human reaction.

 

[PeterJens]

Peterjens, I don't believe anyone in this thread worships security anymore than anyone in this thread is going to be a suicide bomber to get virgins in Heaven.
You posted it in response of being attacked. Its a very human reaction.

Ariel - You are constructing a response based on an emotional interplay.

I am well used to dc and his observations. Combining their position with the fascination with
security, it suddenly struck me, people are making security their God. I have seen this in my
society where if you do not have insurance you will die, or this or that guarantee, or pay extra
and for 7 years we will replace it if it breaks etc.

If I am not a believer because I do not have security, and am a believer if I have security,
that is now the definition of salvation, and the thing that saves me. It could include Christ
or whatever subsiduary beliefs you want, but that is what is happening. I am closer to
calvanism than armenian ideas, but these are conclusions based on the word and my walk.

Idolatry. The bronze snake Moses lifted up had to be destroyed because it was being
worshiped. Anything in life can become our core anchor and replace God, even arguing on
cc, or ones position in church, whatever rises up above love and walking in the light.

I talked with a sister who shared about piety, and how some were very proud how pious
they were. So this trap is open to all, but it shows itself by this exclusivity, in an inappropriate
way, and its fruit is condemning good people just because they do not agree or follow the
idea in question.

Sinners sin, so will be judged for sin. Our security is in the cross and the forgiveness it brings
and the definition that God loves us and desires that we follow in His ways.

 

[PeterJens]

Why is it security is idolatry? Because without security you will try and prove you are worthy,
self justify, and build a whole religion of self justification.

There is some truth to this, because people do feel they know Jesus and His words, but do not
know how to translate love from the bible and the cross into their hearts.

But security is in knowing Christ and what His words mean, putting your faith in Him and following
Him. As you grow closer to the living God, so these realities will become more clear.

Security is not founded in a belief you cannot be lost or walk away, or have a trauma, because
these things do happen and people find themselves torn in two and not sure what to do.
Jesus taught us to pray

"Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil"

But if people desire evil, and so to death, then death is what they will reap.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Peterjens, I don't believe anyone in this thread worships security anymore than anyone in this thread is going to be a suicide bomber to get virgins in Heaven.

You posted it in response of being attacked. Its a very human reaction.

i have trouble with assurance

 

[PennEd]

i have trouble with assurance

It's ok brother.

[h=1]1 John 3:20New King James Version (NKJV)[/h][FONT=&quot]20 For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things.

I believe at the right time, the Holy Spirit will give you revelation of your eternal security, and Blessed assurance.[/FONT]

 

[slave]

i have trouble with assurance

No you don't. You have trouble realizing Christ in you doesn't....Smile. But you're getting closer every day! When I think of CC threads, I look up to Him, and I see people at all levels of maturity who need to be loved. What do you see? Now....stay on line up there with Him and see what your assurance looks like now! ...

 

[Ariel82]

i have trouble with assurance

Yeah I did to for a very long time.

Our hearts say "you're not worthy. You are a sinner."

God's says "yes you are a sinner. That is why I sent you a savior. Do you believe in Jesus? Is your faith upon Him alone?"

When our hearts are able to answer "Yes, Lord" then He tells us about eternal salvation in Him and give us the Holy Spirit that proclaims that we are His beloved children.

This was in the church email blast today.

Thought I would share it..

“There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.'” ~*C. S. Lewis

 

[PeterJens]

i have trouble with assurance

Last night in house group we were talking about this.
We tend to not see the good things in our lives but only our failures,
and do not take delight in the blessing Christ has placed within us.

It is why we need fellowship with others to see the good that is there.
Often we see issues as way more difficult than they are, and run down our
achievements as nothing, when without Christ we would not have even come close.

So if you want to grow more, spend time encouraging and being encouraged by
the brethren.

 

[sevenseas]

You guys have easy believism all wrong...

Easy believism are those who might have a mental assent toward the Gospel but not a real saving faith. False converts, or someone who wants a security blanket but doesn't actually believe. Some of the ones ya'll are attacking for being against false conversion actually believe just like you do and are on the side of the doctrine of grace. I'm with them. True conversion requires real saving faith by grace.

Sola Scriptura (“Scripture alone”): The Bible alone is our highest authority.
Sola Fide (“faith alone”): We are saved through faith alone in Jesus Christ.
Sola Gratia (“grace alone”): We are saved by the grace of God alone.
Solus Christus (“Christ alone”): Jesus Christ alone is our Lord, Savior, and King.
Soli Deo Gloria (“to the glory of God alone”): We live for the glory of God alone.

Total Depravity
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement
Irresistible Grace (saved by grace alone through faith alone)
Perseverance of the Saints (the very doctrine you are here defending AKA OSAS absent of works)

While you may not agree with TULIP, it is 100% absent of the works of men and we all agree on the doctrine of salvation by grace alone through faith alone. Easy believism is just a way of saying the person never truly believed, they just recited a prayer that lost meaning once their emotional high or whatever it is wears off. Their faith is not truly in Christ. Maybe they were peer pressured, or scared of death, or agree what people say about Jesus, but have no trust or faith in him. Demons do that last one after all...

No true conversion = no justification, and no justification = no sanctification. We learn this from Romans 8 in regards to those who believe (have real saving faith)

29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Has nothing at all to do with works to attain or retain salvation. Has to do with false conversion, mental assent, no saving faith, fakes. We also learn this in 1 John:

1 John 5
Overcoming the World
5 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome. 4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. 5 Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

Again, has nothing to do with works to attain or retain salvation, but the born again child of God will strive to obey Christ. If they don't, they get this unless they are illegitimate (in fact, I'm sure we all as children of God experience this from time to time, no?):

Do Not Grow Weary
3 Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted. 4 In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5 And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons?

“My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
nor be weary when reproved by him.
6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and chastises every son whom he receives.”
7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.

I'm not a 5 point anything but this is a great post

I think this is the first time I have ever seen this:

Has nothing at all to do with works to attain or retain salvation. Has to do with false conversion, mental assent, no saving faith, fakes.

expressed as actual easy grace and not used to insult someone or call them names

I guess that is actually no grace at all if they are not saved to begin with

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Peterjens, I don't believe anyone in this thread worships security anymore than anyone in this thread is going to be a suicide bomber to get virgins in Heaven.

You posted it in response of being attacked. Its a very human reaction.

They still do not get it. They get angry because we have security in Christ, maybe that should be their first clue of where their security actually lies, and they would realize it is not Christ, even though they THINK it is

 

[preacher4truth]

Ooh, that was good! Slap & divide all in the same sentence! Says more about you than you think.

What, you're a free willer? Never knew that! I'll never talk to you again...lolzzzzzz

Now as far as not liking a person? It's not even that. But I do dislike when a professing believer lies and doesn't have the integrity to own it.

 

[Preacha24-7]

Grace= God's unmerited favor. God gives us what we don't deserve. We all deserve to be in hell, but God has mercy on us.
Ephesians2:8-9 saved by Grace not works.
Romans8:1-2 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Romans6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
To God be the Glory,
Preacha24-7 Evangelist to the Streets (Street Ministry)

 

[dcontroversal]

You may not see it, but with God any thing is possible.

Too many different people and beliefs to write everyone off as unsaved just because they don't understand what is meant by eternal security.

Perhaps there is a reason for that?

The beginning of wisdom is fear of the Lord.

Does it really help to call them cake takers?

You don't see where anyone truly trusts God but doesn't understand the concept of eternal security?

I think it's tied up with a false idea of what Calvinism teaches and free willers don't like the term.

But I probably should finish reading this train wreck....I mean thread.

I don't write everyone off and exactly why I said a hard time seeing.....I CAN RIGHTFULLY JUDGE ONE'S dontrine and if false can make a reasonable estimation based uopn their belief....

 

[mailmandan]