Not By Works

[limey410]

Idolaters of security can easily be spotted.

Arrogance - you are ...... some evil condemning description invented with great animosity
Division - they will divide and though most things are the same they alone know God
Idol - one belief will make or break you, not a relationship or a walk or love flowing

Life takes time to see and work through. We have scripture because it is a walk and not
a destination, and all walks are personal, unique, and only you know the real issues.

God sends those with delusions to show us the way, and why idolatry of belief destroys
the soul and blinds the heart. We are people of love and a walk with Christ. May we be
able to know the Holy Spirit flowing among us, and encourage each other to good works
to His glory.

Idolaters of security, that is rich dude!

You realize that you are speaking of the God that sacrificed it all so that we may have life and life everlasting.

Do you understand the words, Love, Grace, Mercy, Forgiveness, Trust, Eternity?

None of those words are formed on shaky ground.

None of the actions that these words describe were done lightly.

Nothing of God is done without purpose.

None of the promises that were made that these words describe are revocable, yet you just call it a farce, or coin a stupid phrase such as idolaters of security or idolatry of belief.

Genesis 15:6, Romans 4:3 and Galatians 3:6 John 6:29, John 12:44, John 11:25, Mark 9:23 are these verses part of this doctrine of the idolatry of belief?

 

[followjesus]

The most foul doctrine that has ever been put into the mind of man from our enemy is the belief that we lose our salvation. Jesus is the Savior - we do not save ourselves.

A drowning, dying man doesn't need 5 lessons on how to learn how to swim, and if you don't learn these lessons and learn how to swim before you make it to the shore - you will die. No, a thousand times NO - he needs a Savior.

Jesus is NOT a liar when He said "The Holy Spirit will be in you forever."

Jesus is NOT a liar when He said that "None that come to Me will I lose - it is My Father's will that I lose none of them."

Jesus is NOT a liar when He said "No one shall take you out of My hands nor My Father's hands".

Jesus is NOT a liar when He said "I will never forsake, I will not, I will not leave you."

Jesus has obtained eternal redemption for us. Heb. 9:12 In Him we have redemption - the forgiveness of sins. Eph. 1:7

There is something drastically wrong when people are constantly telling people that they do not have eternal life even though Jesus said that they do.

We need to be preaching and teaching the love and grace of God in Christ that is the gospel message. Feed people the proper nutrients of Christ Himself and we will manifest His life in and through us to a hurt and dying world that needs to see and know the love and grace our loving Father and Lord have for them.

"Jesus is NOT a liar when He said "The Holy Spirit will be in you forever."


john 14:15-17 "If ye love me, keep my commandments.16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."

v25-26 "These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I HAVE SAID unto you."

He surely is not a liar, but the issue is plucking the things like " he said the holy ghost would be with you forever" from its context. He actually said " Obey my commandments, and I will pray and the Father will send ....the Holy ghost to be with you forever"

infact He taught consistantly the His word is the source of the spirit and keeping it is 100 percent required. its the one verse theology, here a verse, there a verse, every where a verse verse...... but whats actually being said by Jesus ? obey my word and you will know the spirit of truth wich is the Holy ghost.

its not okay to omit the things people dont want to Hear because we are trying to make "love" mean what it doesnt.

1 john 5:2-3 "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3FOR THIS IS THE LOVE OF GOD, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous."<<<

it shouldnt be looked at as a foul thing because of Grace , Grace should teach a person to Love obeying the Word of God, not fight to keep others from doing so and label it bad theology, its all the bible really teaches Obey the Lord, trust in Jesus, keep His words, walk in the truth, lay down your life for the One who laid down youes, dont just say i believe, do the will of God. this is why the gog is a terrible thing for believers, it throws out cool phrases like " rest in the finished work of the cross" grabs a verse about rest, and persuades others against those who actually accept the context of things because effortless salvation is pretty human friendly, Only problem is Jesus the Savior taught us what to do, what to follow after, How to ACTUALLY receive the Holy ghost, and how to ACTUALLY walk in the spirit.


according to the gog this is bad theology

matthew 7:24-27 "Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and DOETH THEM, I will liken him unto a WISE MAN, which built his house upon a rock: 25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was FOUNDED upon a rock. 26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and DOETH THEM NOT not, shall be likened unto a FOOLISH MAN, which built his house upon the sand: 27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and GREAT WAS THE FALL of it."

yet its the word of Jesus Christ. who i guess didnt really get the " work of the cross" , its not okay to part from Jesus Words what He taught is the truth of the Gospel that He died to deliver to mankind. I would warn every single believer to part wuickly from things that completely distort the word of God. Gods word works without fail to those who accept it, and do it, otherwise its a simple deception.

james 1:22 "But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves."

its freedom john 8:31-32, its light John 8:12, its the power of God, His Word, not explainations why the gospel doesnt apply to Christians, or why the gospel doesnt include His words, or why paul taught some other gospel when Hes clear

1 timothy 6:3-5 "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the WORDS OF our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the DOCTRINE WHICH IS ACCORDING TO GODLINESS; 4He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, 5Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: FROM SUCH WITHDRAW THYSELF."

the doctrine according to godliness

john 7:16-17 "Jesus answered them, and said, MY DOCTRINE is not mine, but HIS THAT SENT ME. 17If any man will DO HIS WILL, he shall know of the DOCTRINE, whether it be OF GOD, or whether I speak of myself. "

 

[PeterJens]

They still do not get it. They get angry because we have security in Christ, maybe that should be their first clue of where their security actually lies, and they would realize it is not Christ, even though they THINK it is

Me angry?

I trust people who trust in Christ know Him and follow His word.

What surprises me is when I am told I must not be a believer if I do not hold
one version of security in Christ. This is a version of idolatry.

If you do not have the idol, you are not saved. It is this that did not add up when
I first came across this group and in later conversations. But now it makes perfect
sense. Without their idol their faith becomes meaningless.

Just read their words. Without "idol" I would be lost, no confidence, no foundation,
always would be working to compensate for my insecurity, everything flows from this idol.

Now I worship Jesus and His love expressed through the cross. He is my King and
Lord the one who brought me forgiveness of my sins and the example I am to follow.

So when Christ is the one who I worship, that is the true duty of me a child of the
Kingdom of heaven. In Him is my security, knowing the love that dwells in His heart
and was expressed through the cross is my salvation.

I believe Jesus and who He is.

Now however you spin this it is not the version people are projecting on to me, so I
just wonder why they need to invent such stories? Maybe it makes them happy, or
justifies their own position. My observation are based only on their words and expressions
of faith and trust. I am not projecting anything, I am listening.

 

[PeterJens]

Idolaters of security, that is rich dude!
You realize that you are speaking of the God that sacrificed it all so that we may have life and life everlasting.
Do you understand the words, Love, Grace, Mercy, Forgiveness, Trust, Eternity?
None of those words are formed on shaky ground.
None of the actions that these words describe were done lightly.
Nothing of God is done without purpose.
None of the promises that were made that these words describe are revocable, yet you just call it a farce, or coin a stupid phrase such as idolaters of security or idolatry of belief.
Genesis 15:6, Romans 4:3 and Galatians 3:6 John 6:29, John 12:44, John 11:25, Mark 9:23 are these verses part of this doctrine of the idolatry of belief?

Limey - Maybe you are missing something here. If you know Jesus, you do not need to
have some belief of security just in case you have a wobble.

When I drive a car, I know the safety tests, the history, the MOT, the reliability scores etc.
the car has gone through, so I know how safe it is. The safety of the car does not rely on
my belief in its safety.

But here are a bunch of believers who are saying if you do not believe this idea, the car
will crash, in fact you cannot even get into the car at all. It is literally junk as an idea goes.

And the car is so safe no matter how badly you drive it can never crash, a guaranteed
crash proof car, even though this is actually impossible, driving it off a cliff it will just
bounce back.

This absurd extrapolation of safety, security becomes idolatry because it has nothing to
do with reality or even the purpose of the relationship with God and what is in Gods heart
to make us into. This is why the whole construct is delusion and idolatry. It neither brings
you security or has any bearing on the faith of others and their relationship to Christ.

 

[limey410]

Limey - Maybe you are missing something here. If you know Jesus, you do not need to
have some belief of security just in case you have a wobble.

When I drive a car, I know the safety tests, the history, the MOT, the reliability scores etc.
the car has gone through, so I know how safe it is. The safety of the car does not rely on
my belief in its safety.

But here are a bunch of believers who are saying if you do not believe this idea, the car
will crash, in fact you cannot even get into the car at all. It is literally junk as an idea goes.

And the car is so safe no matter how badly you drive it can never crash, a guaranteed
crash proof car, even though this is actually impossible, driving it off a cliff it will just
bounce back.

This absurd extrapolation of safety, security becomes idolatry because it has nothing to
do with reality or even the purpose of the relationship with God and what is in Gods heart
to make us into. This is why the whole construct is delusion and idolatry. It neither brings
you security or has any bearing on the faith of others and their relationship to Christ.

The security is not for me, because I know Jesus I know my security, the security is for those that are lost and need a savior.

 

[PeterJens]

By the way readers, brothers and sisters, saying security in Christ has been taken to
the lengths of idolatry will drive them mad. There replacement of God is the one thing
that makes sense to them and on this everything else hangs.

No repentance, no confession, no sorrow, no seeking resolution, no humbleness or sorrow,
no working through sinful behaviour and understanding ones heart and purifying ones behaviour,
sowing to the Spirit and putting off the flesh. That is all unnecessary because you just need to
rest in Christ, put your feet up, and let Jesus do it all while you are sleeping. I am surprised no
one has created a transform your spirit in Christ while you sleep cassets, because this is Gods
way according to them. No conscious participation needed, just sock puppet life changes, and
one day, boom you are like Christ, magic wand time. Is that not what the apostles preached.
Jesus did not preach this before the cross because Jesus only preached law and bondage to show
how badly you need security, and after the cross your failure to be righteous shows how much you
need security again, which makes you even stronger in being spiritual, so God can change you more,
so you feel even worse, because you are now growing even more mature, knowing how lost you are
so you rely even more on the security you know you have. This is such a picture of overcoming and
victory, I know it must truly be the way of Christ?

No.

What might lead you to think it might actually be junk??????

 

[Grace777x70]

The sky is still blue...

 

[PeterJens]

The security is not for me, because I know Jesus I know my security, the security is for those that are lost and need a savior.

Your sentence does not make sense.
You do not need more security because you know Jesus so have security.

But if this security was wrong, or a delusion, you would have a need.
Your argument is you do not need more security than the one you currently have.

Well my friend, I do not need the security of salvation that cannot be lost, mainly because
I think this is a delusion and irrelevant to what salvation actually is. And the fact you and
your group need this kind of idea, indicates you do not understand the cross and the dynamics
of love.

But all I can do is share my understanding of why you do what you do, and why I believe it
is wrong. God bless you, and may you find truth and life through Jesus Christ our Lord, Amen.

 

[Ariel82]

Now the straw man has clothes...how nice.

 

[PeterJens]

The sky is still blue...

Yes the sky is blue, and sometimes it rains and gets dark and sometimes
people invent junk and wars and delusions to justify their own sins which they
find impossible to resolve in any other way.

Sometimes I get optimistic about peoples positions and then they go off on
a rant about the greatest evil in the world, and it comes home how deluded people
are in there idolatry of belief.

 

[followjesus]

The sky is still blue...

actually from a distance it appears blue to the human eye. but when the truth is understood its the color of space its just so far away it looks blue to someone who doesnt consider whats beyond the eyes ability to see. all color appears different from a distance " color theory 101"

 

[limey410]

Your sentence does not make sense.
You do not need more security because you know Jesus so have security.

But if this security was wrong, or a delusion, you would have a need.
Your argument is you do not need more security than the one you currently have.

Well my friend, I do not need the security of salvation that cannot be lost, mainly because
I think this is a delusion and irrelevant to what salvation actually is. And the fact you and
your group need this kind of idea, indicates you do not understand the cross and the dynamics
of love.

But all I can do is share my understanding of why you do what you do, and why I believe it
is wrong. God bless you, and may you find truth and life through Jesus Christ our Lord, Amen.

Hey, it might be because of you that I eventually find this truth and life through Jesus Christ, of which you speak. (Followed by bellows of laughter and then discernment, realizing that there is no good news in the gospel that you are trying to teach me. I will believe what God tells me.) I edited this post because I was not very nice in my closing statement, so I removed it, I hope on time.

 

[PeterJens]

Hey, it might be because of you that I eventually find this truth and life through Jesus Christ, of which you speak. (Followed by bellows of laughter and then discernment, realizing that there is no good news in the gospel that you are trying to teach me. I will believe what God tells me.) I edited this post because I was not very nice in my closing statement, so I removed it, I hope on time.

God bless you my friend.

Do you see the difference between us is your perception of security, yet it causes
you to be condemning and full of redicule.

If was selling life insurance ofcourse a policy that said guaranteed no matter how many
dangerous sports you participate in you get full cover, would be worth more than one
that was more realistic but also capable of paying out.

The problem with delusions is on pay day, they draw a blank.

 

[PeterJens]

Idolatry creates a God after the ideas of its creator

So if you want your God to accept you as you are, sins and all, then all
restrictions and constraints are just thrown away and everything is acceptable.

So Isaiah seeing God would go cool, God, you confirm I have no issues or anything
to resolve because you have sorted it already, invisibly so you can see it, but all I
see is the junk in my life.

 

[limey410]

God bless you my friend.

Do you see the difference between us is your perception of security, yet it causes
you to be condemning and full of redicule.

If was selling life insurance ofcourse a policy that said guaranteed no matter how many
dangerous sports you participate in you get full cover, would be worth more than one
that was more realistic but also capable of paying out.

The problem with delusions is on pay day, they draw a blank.

The difference between us is far greater than that. We are both fortunate that we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior (Thank God for that), but as far as how we see our God is quite different.

Its odd that you say I am condemning and full of ridicule though. As often times you hide your condescending attitude behind a good old fashion "God Bless you"

 

[Grace777x70]

Our salvation is and always be in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ. What He has already done in His work on the cross and resurrection.

Brethren - we are not redeemed until our next failure. The blood of the Lord Jesus Christ speaks of better things.

We have eternal redemption because of what Christ has already done and the fact that we are one spirit with Him. In Him we have eternal redemption through His blood - not by what we do or don't do.

Hebrews 9:12 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.


Ephesians 1:7 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace

Colossians 1:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

We have = present tense - present tense is always present tense. When tomorrow comes - it will be present tense then too.

Does this make us want to go out and sin all we want? No, a thousand times No! Of course not - why?

Because "knowing this truth" releases the grace of God in our lives to operate to produce His life in and through us. Jesus said "You shall know the truth and that truth shall make you free."

It's time to "repent and believe the gospel" like Jesus said in Mark 1:15 After all it is not called the "good news" for no reason.

We have a great and wondrous salvation but it is all in Christ and what He has already done. We receive this all by grace through faith. As we have received Christ - so we walk in Him in like manner.

 

[limey410]

Our salvation is and always be in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ. What He has already done in His work on the cross and resurrection.

Brethren - we are not redeemed until our next failure. The blood of the Lord Jesus Christ speaks of better things.

We have eternal redemption because of what Christ has already done and the fact that we are one spirit with Him. In Him we have eternal redemption through His blood - not by what we do or don't do.

Hebrews 9:12 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.


Ephesians 1:7 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace

Colossians 1:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

We have = present tense - present tense is always present tense. When tomorrow comes - it will be present tense then too.

Does this make us want to go out and sin all we want? No, a thousand times No! Of course not - why?

Because "knowing this truth" releases the grace of God in our lives to operate to produce His life in and through us. Jesus said "You shall know the truth and that truth shall make you free."

It's time to "repent and believe the gospel" like Jesus said in Mark 1:15 After all it is not called the "good news" for no reason.

We have a great and wondrous salvation but it is all in Christ and what He has already done. We receive this all by grace through faith. As we have received Christ - so we walk in Him in like manner.

Yes, words of life. Thank you G777 !!!

 

[PeterJens]

The difference between us is far greater than that. We are both fortunate that we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior (Thank God for that), but as far as how we see our God is quite different.

Its odd that you say I am condemning and full of ridicule though. As often times you hide your condescending attitude behind a good old fashion "God Bless you"

There is a simple respect principle about discussions.
I can disagree with someone about a subject or point of view, but it is not arrogance
or superior and lesser status involved, it is just a point of view.

So if someone is saying I am not a believer and no nothing of Jesus, love or truth,
this is plainly a rude, arrogant position to take. Now pointing this out is neither arrogant
or being defensive, it is just speaking the truth.

I have had this trick played on me so many times it gets so old.
One good way is to objectify a position into the abstract and then talk about the issues.

Often people emotionally layer issues in the wrong places so things that are subsidiary
become too dominant which destroy the whole structure.

So for instance if Christ was not God, His victory through the cross is not a statement about
the nature of God and His approach to man, but a legal undertaking with some legal ruling.
Equally if the cross is about taking sinners and making them saints, if the cross fails to do
this in peoples lives, there has to be a theology of transformation or else salvation is failed.

But I think the idea of cause and effect is beyond some, but so be it.
So I do mean God bless you, however you find yourself, Amen.

 

[Grace777x70]

Legalism in the biblical sense of the word is any attitude or belief that human merit can produce, prove or preserve for one-self an acceptable standing before God and for righteousness and thus obtain eternal salvation.

Whenever our assurance of salvation rests upon "our performance" rather than upon the "promises" of Jesus and what He has already done by grace through faith alone - we are in big trouble and we have fallen from grace.

We then create a religion called Christianity that uses the terms - Jesus, God, word of God, Holy Spirit...etc - that actually denies the work of Christ and it is a form of denying our Lord and Master.

 

[PeterJens]

Legalism in the biblical sense of the word is any attitude or belief that human merit can produce, prove or preserve for one-self an acceptable standing before God and for righteousness and thus obtain eternal salvation.

Whenever our assurance of salvation rests upon "our performance" rather than upon the "promises" of Jesus and what He has already done by grace through faith alone - we are in big trouble and we have fallen from grace.

I agree that our confidence is in Jesus and who He has revealed Himself to be.
His promises are good because of who He is. The promises would be worthless
if we did not know who was providing them.

Peter and John show we have confidence in being sealed by the Holy Spirit and
we find we are obeying the commands of Christ through the love that is following
from our hearts.

My experience is legalism melts away when you begin to see the King in ones life
and the cross. It is the walk of obedience and spiritual reality that makes us whole
and renewed. I sometimes wonder when people appear hard hearted and emotionally
cold do they know what Jesus is talking about. The thing is we are what we are, you
cannot created a soft heart or give yourself emotional insight. It is not something you
study in college.

But one can start to look at ones heart and put things right with those one cares about.
As one does this, things start to more and you change. It is odd because you become
someone different and things you thought defined who you were are no longer there.