Not By Works

[PeterJens]

Listen cake taker...the security of the believer is not an idol or idolatry...placing emphasis upon yourself and your works for salvation is idolatry to the max....true satanism to be exact.....

"true satanism to be exact"

"placing emphasis upon yourself and your works"

I have not been called a satanist before, lol. Dear fellow believers, there is a point where
people go from a polite discussion about faith, to name calling to total condemnation and
trying the worst insults possible. Desperate emotions call for desperate insults.
God bless dc.

I am not placing an emphasis on me or my works but on the cross and on Christ.
I remember weeping infront of the cross and feeling so unworthy and empty, and knowing
Jesus had done everything, how could I serve my Lord and Saviour.

Jesus brought us victory and transforming power, but we need to know the rules of the
heart, and our lives. Unless we open up our hearts, and repent, work through our sins,
desire righteousness and the way of love, we will never know how Jesus was driven to
the cross and how we can share in His suffering.

Why would I a wounded lost sinner desire to share in Christs suffering? Because once
washed pure, once cleansed and healed there is no greater gift to others than demonstrate
the eternal love of Christ in human form.

Glory to God, who raised Christ from the dead, and seated Him at the right hand of the
Father.

Therefore I glory in Christ Jesus in my service to God.
Rom 15:17

Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.
Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
Matt 5:11-12

Halleluyah to God on High that He has counted me worthy of persecution in
His name, amen.

 

[Ariel82]

No sir, it don't. A slave is one that is taken by force to do service,and a servant is one who offers up himself to do service. .

In the old testament, a man could become a slave if he owed a bunch of money,but ever 7 years during the year of Jubilee all slaves (who were of Israel) are set free and debts forgiven.

Biblical slavery is different than what the world has. Even in Roman culture a slave could be freed and made a son to inherit all of his father's with and status and Roman citzenship.

Now a days slave have a bad connotation.

I haven't read all the responses but my point is that even after we are born again, we may still fall into the lies and deceptions of the elementary principles of this world. Babes in Christ, in need of understanding the basic principles and milk of the Gospel. When we mature and able to discern good doctrine from bad...good spirits from evil spirits, etc...when we have the fruit of the Spirit, understand our spiritual gifts and learned how we can be a part of the Earthly body of Christ....when we are spiritually mature and no longer toss to and for the by the winds of false doctrines....when we learn to use our spiritual armor...

when are mature in Christ is when God not only calls us His good and faithful servant, but His friend.

We will never know all God's plans, but we can know His plans for the next step He would have us take in our walk with Him.

 

[Grace777x70]

Jesus said "You shall know the truth and that truth shall make you free."<<< one verse theology again with the explaination parting completely from the word in context.


john 8:31-32 "Then said Jesus to those Jews which BELIEVED ON HIM, IF YE CONTINUE IN MY WORD, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.<<


free from what?

v33-34 "They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?34Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of SIN."

why is the context of things and what Jesus actually said not as valuable as our own explainations ? alot seem to do that one verse and then explain why thier own view of salvation is more than whats just plainly there. that will always lead to a bad place

All Christians agree what the true Christian life looks like when Christ is manifesting the fruit of His life in us. The dis-connect comes when people talk about "how is this done".

Works-based belief systems use the Old Covenant mindset to try to effect transformation in Christians. Grace-based belief relies totally on the life and work of Christ in them to transform them by His love and grace towards us.

A very big factor in looking at scripture is the "lens" you use to view the scripture.

In the Old Covenant " you had to do or else"..If you do this..then I God will do that.." = conditional on the person performing

New Covenant = Jesus has done it for you which empowers you to "do"

Let's take a look at a common scripture with these 2 mindsets.

Jesus said.." If you love Me, you will keep My commandments"

Old Covenant mindset = conditional on the person "doing"..

So they would read it this way.."IF you love Me you will keep My commandments"..in their mind it's saying.."Keep My commandment and you will prove you love Me."

New Covenant mindset = it's a description of who you are in Christ.

They would see this "Jesus' love is in me so I keep His commandments"..it stems out of relationship and it is not conditional but descriptive of the believer.

1 John 4:18-19 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.

[SUP]19 [/SUP] We love, because He first loved us.

Then there is more..lol..there seems to be more sometimes eh?..just what are His commandments anyway?..Be perfect as My Father in heaven is perfect?...can we possibly do that?..of course not..that is Moses 2.0

Ahhh..found His commandments in 1 John 3.

1 John 3:23 (NASB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.


...the "lens" that we view scriptures greatly affects us. We try to mix the Old Covenant ( before the cross and resurrection ) with the New Covenant and we get a religious mess.

Religious traditions of men, philosophies of men, ..what we were told all our lives in church or in the world etc. ..all influence how we view scripture. Sometimes some of our "sacred cows" can get sacrificed and it's painful.

Colossians 2:8 (NASB)
[SUP]8[/SUP] See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.

 

[PeterJens]

They had tasted in such a way as to give them a distinct impression of its character and quality, yet they still turned away. Inherent in the idea of tasting is the fact that one might or might not decide to accept the thing that is tasted. For example, the same Greek word (geuomai) is used in Matthew 27:34 to say that those crucifying Jesus "offered him wine to drink, mingled with gall; but when He tasted it, he would not drink it." Do we "taste" into one Spirit or drink into one Spirit? (1 Corinthians 12:13).

Dan, ok you can use the argument of tasting, but the writer of hebrews is saying

who have shared in the Holy Spirit heb 6:5

they have had the Holy Spirit in them, they know the Lord and have believed in Him,
and then fall away.

They have repented of their sins, they are believers, how can they be restored.
Hebrews is saying they cannot be. I have always wondered at this passage because
I know of many as children in the church, go cold and later in life return.
Did they really know Christ, or walk in maturity in Christ?

I would always hope there is a door open to all in Christ, but hebrews warns there is
a point where we could choose to walk away and find ourselves lost.

Is it no surprise that a group have arisen where repentance is not their doctrine anymore,
and they are people who fell away and now have returned with a different gospel without
getting right with God and walking in righteousness. So these verses may be also
predicting what will happen when apostates try and resolve their unbelief.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

In the old testament, a man could become a slave if he owed a bunch of money,but ever 7 years during the year of Jubilee all slaves (who were of Israel) are set free and debts forgiven.

Biblical slavery is different than what the world has. Even in Roman culture a slave could be freed and made a son to inherit all of his father's with and status and Roman citzenship.

Now a days slave have a bad connotation.

I haven't read all the responses but my point is that even after we are born again, we may still fall into the lies and deceptions of the elementary principles of this world. Babes in Christ, in need of understanding the basic principles and milk of the Gospel. When we mature and able to discern good doctrine from bad...good spirits from evil spirits, etc...when we have the fruit of the Spirit, understand our spiritual gifts and learned how we can be a part of the Earthly body of Christ....when we are spiritually mature and no longer toss to and for the by the winds of false doctrines....when we learn to use our spiritual armor...

when are mature in Christ is when God not only calls us His good and faithful servant, but His friend.

We will never know all God's plans, but we can know His plans for the next step He would have us take in our walk with Him.

21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.

24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.

25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.

26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.

28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.

29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.

31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.

32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:

33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?

34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

 

[mailmandan]

Jesus said "You shall know the truth and that truth shall make you free."<<< one verse theology again with the explaination parting completely from the word in context.

john 8:31-32 "Then said Jesus to those Jews which BELIEVED ON HIM, IF YE CONTINUE IN MY WORD, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.<<

free from what?

v33-34 "They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?34Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of SIN."

why is the context of things and what Jesus actually said not as valuable as our own explainations ? alot seem to do that one verse and then explain why thier own view of salvation is more than whats just plainly there. that will always lead to a bad place

Context is important. If we continue in His word, then we demonstrate that we are TRULY His disciples (John 8:31). Those who fail to continue in His word demonstrate that they are NOT TRULY His disciples. In regards to those Jews which "believed on Him," John has portrayed people as "believing" who are clearly not saved. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of genuine or consummated belief resulting in salvation." See John 2:23-25 (where their "belief" is clearly superficial in nature).

In John 8:31-59 (where the Jews who were said to have "believed on him" turn out to be slaves to sin [v. 34], indifferent to Jesus’ word [v. 37], children of the devil [v. 44], liars [v. 55], and guilty of setting out to stone the one they have professed to believe in (v. 59). After Jesus’ teaching we read in 6:60 that "many of his disciples . . . said," ‘This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?’ These are the very so called "disciples" who Jesus says "do not believe" (John 6:64). They also walked with Him no more. They did not continue.

 

[joaniemarie]

This is a very good analogy.

I would add that your boy may at some point THINK that he lost his sonship, even though he never really did. That fact is one of my favorite aspects of the Prodical son passage.

He THOUGHT he had lost his sonship and was only planning on asking his father to be a lowly servant of the house. The father thought MUCH differently, and just preceding this passage are the parables of the lost coin and lost sheep. In both cases the owner is not going to rest til he finds them OR, in our case, DRAWS US BACK!

Praise Jesus!

Yes, and it also goes to show we don't know the whole of His love for us and what that love means for us today. How His love and grace will show up in our lives always surprises and excites me. He does not do things according to our rules. He actually by-passes people's opinions of what is acceptable for God and causes us to stretch out in our faith to reconsider (repent) that He is much more than what we first thought.

I heard a message about a guy who thought God was an old man with a long white beard and white robes. The Lord told him he needed to stop seeing Him this way. The guy needed to "repent" (change his mind) The ravages of old age is not something God has to do with.

God is forever the same forever beautiful strong and loving and graceful. When we get to heaven., our loved ones will not be old anymore. Sin is what causes us and the world to age in these bodies here. We can stay youthful but we all will age and tucker out eventually. (but not today)

He can take the usual things in life and make them very unusual. Living life that way is exciting and new just like He is. He makes all things new!! Those who don't know this sort of security in the love and grace of God have much to look forward to once they let the truth in.

 

[Ariel82]

Yes, they put works ahead of salvation, therefore mixing the two. Even more than that, they claim salvation can only be found in the (catholic) church, since one is told they must partake in the various sacraments within that church. It's an anathema to claim your sins can be completely and eternally forgiven by God. The idea of assurance is forbidden (I forget where in the Catechism I read that).

They also mix up the very definition of church. They say you must be part of the church in order to be saved, but we know that it's only once you're saved that you become part of the church (since believers are actually the church)

Believers do have discernment and some have the gift of discerning the Spirits, so one of the things is they can tell who is saved and who is lost. So God does allow us to see these things through the gifts.

You believe that the gift of discernment allows you to see who is saved and who is lost?


Does it allow you to see who is currently being tormented and tempted by demons and who will be saved by God?

 

[Grace777x70]

Well I instantly had assurance the moment I was saved. I knew I had eternal life, that all my sins had been forgiven. This was before I even opened up a bible for the first time. When you're born of the Spirit, you know.

So when I hear someone state that they have no assurance *I conclude* that either (a) they don't actually have the Holy Spirit (because they would know) or (b) they once had this assurance, but in the years since they've been listening too much to teachers and as a result they now have doubts.

But God knew that some would have doubts, which is why the bible is full of scriptures to reassure us...


1 John 5:11-15: And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him.

Well said. I too knew that I had life now and that it is eternal when I received the Lord by my bed one night kneeling all by mysel.

I can't understand these people that are constantly telling people that they will lose their salvation. What drives people to constantly be telling people this nonsense? The need to save themselves and to maintain their own righteousness is all that I can see along with horrible church teachings and traditions.

It's time to boldly put the knife to the throat of these "sacred cows" of religion so that the true believers in Christ can grow up in Him and walk free in the love and grace our loving Father and Lord have for us.

There are warnings in the NT about living by the flesh in this world ( such as having malice and the slandering of others in the body of Christ to the living of the homosexual lifestyle) and the destruction that brings but we need to have the proper foundation in our Father's love and grace for us first or else these warnings become something to beat the sheep with and in a lot of cases actually drive them away from the very One who loves them.

Let's preach and teach the love and grace of God in the Lord Jesus Christ and then the warning scriptures will be able to have their proper place in the Christian's life.

 

[mailmandan]

Dan, ok you can use the argument of tasting, but the writer of hebrews is saying

who have shared in the Holy Spirit heb 6:5

they have had the Holy Spirit in them, they know the Lord and have believed in Him,
and then fall away.

They have repented of their sins, they are believers, how can they be restored.
Hebrews is saying they cannot be. I have always wondered at this passage because
I know of many as children in the church, go cold and later in life return.
Did they really know Christ, or walk in maturity in Christ?

I would always hope there is a door open to all in Christ, but hebrews warns there is
a point where we could choose to walk away and find ourselves lost.

Is it no surprise that a group have arisen where repentance is not their doctrine anymore,
and they are people who fell away and now have returned with a different gospel without
getting right with God and walking in righteousness. So these verses may be also
predicting what will happen when apostates try and resolve their unbelief.

once enlightened - The word enlightened means to bring to light, to shed light upon or to cause light to shine upon some object, in the sense of illuminating it. Figuratively, photizo means to give guidance or understanding, to make clear or to cause something to be known by revealing clearly. John 1:9 describes Jesus, the "true Light," giving light "to every man"; but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. This light either leads to the complete acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject such light.

partakers of the Holy Spirit - Partakers describes one who shares with someone else as an associate in an enterprise or undertaking. It speaks of those who are participators in something. Business partner, companion. Participating in. Accomplice in. Comrade. Metochos is used elsewhere in Hebrews in the context of believers (Hebrews 3:14 - "For we have become partakers of Christ") and thus the statement that the readers have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit seems at first glance to be support that true believers are being addressed, yet there are other ministries of the Holy Spirit that precede the indwelling of believers. It is very plausible to envision an individual becoming a sharer in or partaker of the Spirit (and his pre-salvation ministry - convicting of sin, righteousness and judgment to come) by responding for a time to His drawing power intended to lead sinners to Christ. The translation "shared" implies something done in company with others and before salvation all believers shared in the convicting ministry of the Spirit Who drew them to salvation. Note also that the writer does not state that these individuals were "indwelt by the Holy Spirit" or "sealed by the Holy Spirit" or "possessors of the Spirit's pledge (guarantee) of future inheritance."

tasted the good word of God - Again, they had tasted in such a way as to give them a distinct impression of its character and quality, yet they still turned away. Inherent in the idea of tasting is the fact that one might or might not decide to accept the thing that is tasted. For example, the same Greek word (geuomai) is used in Matthew 27:34 to say that those crucifying Jesus "offered him wine to drink, mingled with gall; but when he tasted it, he would not drink it." Do we taste into one Spirit or drink into one Spirit? (1 Corinthians 12:13).

fall away - I find it interesting that the term "fall away" or "stumble" was used by the Lord Jesus of His 11 disciples at the time of His arrest. The disciples deserted Jesus as was predicted and Peter obviously denied Jesus three times. They were said to "fall away." Matthew 26:31 - Then Jesus said to them, "You will all fall away because of Me this night, for it is written, 'I WILL STRIKE DOWN THE SHEPHERD, AND THE SHEEP OF THE FLOCK SHALL BE SCATTERED.' 32 "But after I have been raised, I will go ahead of you to Galilee." 33 But Peter said to Him, "Even though all may fall away because of You, I will never fall away." Obviously, this was not a loss of salvation. For a righteous man may fall seven times AND rise again, But the wicked shall FALL by calamity. (Proverbs 24:16)

Hebrews 6:7,8 - For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. In this agricultural metaphor, those who receive final judgment are compared to land that bears no vegetation or useful fruit, but rather bears thorns and thistles. When we recall the other metaphors in Scripture where good fruit is a sign of true spiritual life and fruitfulness is a sign of false believers (for example - Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35), we already have an indication that the author is speaking of people whose most trustworthy evidence of their spiritual condition (the fruit they bear) is negative, suggesting that the author is talking about people who are not genuine Christians. Verse 9 sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (calls them BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and falling away do not accompany salvation.

It is generally stated by those who believe salvation can be lost that you can get it back again. In regards to "restore them again unto repentance," this wording alone does not specify whether the earlier repentance was merely outward or whether it was genuine repentance that accompanied saving faith in Christ. If the writer of Hebrews was truly teaching that a really "saved," person really "lost their salvation" then why didn't he simply say, "For it is impossible for those who were once born again or saved, if they fall away, to renew them again to salvation? *Why is it that we never find the words "lose or lost your salvation" in the Bible? *That would certainly settle the issue.

 

[Ariel82]

21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.

24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.

25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.

26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.

28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.

29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.

31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.

32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:

33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?

34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Forgiveness is a definite need, but people are blinded by the log.

I guess all we can do is pray.

 

[mailmandan]

Is it no surprise that a group have arisen where repentance is not their doctrine anymore,

Straw man argument.

and they are people who fell away and now have returned with a different gospel without
getting right with God and walking in righteousness.

Walking in righteousness is the fruit of repentance (Matthew 3:8; Acts 26:20) not the essence of repentance - to think differently or afterwards, reconsider. After thought, change of mind (Strong's #3340, 3341). The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16). *Please explain to me what YOU believe it means to "believe the gospel."

The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation. The gospel is not a self righteous works system that equates to salvation based on the merits of our performance. The gospel simply sets forth Christ crucified, buried and risen as the Savior of all who believe (trust) in His finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation.

 

[Ariel82]

Peterjens,

Dcon doesn't like the gospel he believes you are teaching..,,mainly that you have to add good works or you will lose your salvation.

He believes this means your faith is in yourself and not in Christ and that you don't have security in Christ and the eternal life He gives because the Holy Spirit is not telling you that your are a beloved child of God who will never be lost.

This is reinforced because you and others talk about walking away from God or not being saved if you don't have good works.


Good works are the fruit of being saved, Jesus is the Root, the Rock, the foundation.

You make so many strawmen, it just makes the whole situation worse. (your false accusations of people not believing in repentance, or being against good works, etc)

I have already said

NO ONE WORSHIPS THE IDOL OF SECURITY.

You make this assumption because you can't understand why they dont like your gospel. They believe you worship before the IDOL OF GOOD WORKS.

Do you?

If someone trusted fully in Jesus Christ as savior but never had any external good works, would that person be saved?

Until you show that your gospel is grounded in Christ and not your own good works, folks are gonna believe you a false teacher and react accordingly.

Oh yeah...,Dcon also said you didn't believe in the imputed righteousness of Christ..,true or false?

 

[PeterJens]

Now I worship Jesus and His love expressed through the cross. He is my King and
Lord the one who brought me forgiveness of my sins and the example I am to follow.

So when Christ is the one who I worship, that is the true duty of me a child of the
Kingdom of heaven. In Him is my security, knowing the love that dwells in His heart
and was expressed through the cross is my salvation.

I believe Jesus and who He is.

Listen cake taker...the security of the believer is not an idol or idolatry...placing emphasis upon yourself and your works for salvation is idolatry to the max....true satanism to be exact.....

The problem with the condemnation above is it has no validity.
It is driven by anger. As soon as this becomes our driving emotion the Holy Spirit
has been left far behind and we are neck deep in sinful behaviour and language.

And that is where it just stops. It makes the speaker look as the verse says

The mouths of fools are their undoing, and their lips are a snare to their very lives.
Prov 18:7

Many evil things are said without restraint, because we have not resolved things
in our lives and it goes too far. Some shipwreck their faith because the emotion
gets the better of them.

 

[Grace777x70]

Originally Posted by PeterJens

Is it no surprise that a group have arisen where repentance is not their doctrine anymore,

Straw man argument.

Walking in righteousness is the fruit of repentance (Matthew 3:8; Acts 26:20) not the essence of repentance - to think differently or afterwards, reconsider. After thought, change of mind (Strong's #3340, 3341). The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16). *Please explain to me what YOU believe it means to "believe the gospel."

The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation. The gospel is not a self righteous works system that equates to salvation based on the merits of our performance. The gospel simply sets forth Christ crucified, buried and risen as the Savior of all who believe (trust) in His finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation.

This is another one of the "The sky is blue...moments". This kind of nonsense happens constantly which is why it is a waste of time to even interact with those that consistently are deceitful in their posts. Rom. 16:17

People that believe in the gospel of the grace of God in Christ say the complete opposite of what is said in blue above to the poster you are talking to. We have told this person the same thing for over 1 and 1/2 years and he still distorts and deceitfully says the complete opposite of what is being said.

There is something drastically wrong in Denmark as the saying goes.

The real truth is that believers in the grace of God in Christ's work on the cross and resurrection say that repentance ( the way we think about a subject or when we see new aspects of the nature of our Lord ) is happening all the time as we see new truths of the love and grace our Lord has for us.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Got not clue what dc means by back flips down the isle.

Idolatry is when something replaces God or the relationship with Him.
Covetousness is one thing, that must be had no matter what, which is idolatry.

Using security in faith as salvation and the reality of a relationship is idolatry also.
No relationship can be called real if there is not a recognition that things are going
badly or things are going well. It is the sign of life to distinguish between the two.

What you call idolotry, Normal people call a relationship.

As children we are secure in our parents arms. We are secure when we know they will protect us We are secure because we know they LOVE us no matter what.

As Children of God we are secure in Gods arms (he said he will never leave nor forsake us) We are secure when we know our father (god) will protect us, even from ourselves, And we are secure when we know our father will love us no matter what.

That is the basis of ANY loving relationship. If your not secure in your parent, your not secure at all.

Sadly, people want to replace the secure relationship with God the father and replace it with an insecure relationship with rules and regulations and religion, And call it love.. When it is nothing more than love of self.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I the LORD search the heart and examine the mind, to reward each person according to their conduct, according to what their deeds deserve.
Jeremiah 17:10

So the heart that produces the deeds is important, but the deeds have to be there to
start with.

God does not look at a passive person and looks at their heart and say it is fine.
No God says they are dead, because they are doing nothing.

That passage only relates to Gods children, His saved ones, His adopted ones. It does not relate to those outside of Gods family..

You can not use a passage relating to sanctification and reward to determine who is saved and who is not.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

i have trouble with assurance

why is that

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Idolaters of security, that is rich dude!

You realize that you are speaking of the God that sacrificed it all so that we may have life and life everlasting.

Do you understand the words, Love, Grace, Mercy, Forgiveness, Trust, Eternity?

None of those words are formed on shaky ground.

None of the actions that these words describe were done lightly.

Nothing of God is done without purpose.

None of the promises that were made that these words describe are revocable, yet you just call it a farce, or coin a stupid phrase such as idolaters of security or idolatry of belief.

Genesis 15:6, Romans 4:3 and Galatians 3:6 John 6:29, John 12:44, John 11:25, Mark 9:23 are these verses part of this doctrine of the idolatry of belief?

Amen Gods word is holy and pure, and when he says he is gonna do something he does it. And we can have security in him

Those who deny security, one must wonder what their faith is in

 

[PeterJens]

NO ONE WORSHIPS THE IDOL OF SECURITY.

Well it appears you are wrong. If I am not a believer because I do not follow a particular
version of the doctrine of security in Christ, this is by definition the idol.

What saves us is forgiveness of sins through faith in the cross, not the security once saved
no matter what we do we remain saved. Just this belief exalts it to the status of God.
Any verse or scripture that might contradict it, must mean something else. Any statement
of a condition of behaviour after having faith in Christ must be wrong.

I am never commited to any position until I have worked them through.
What I notice about your approach is it takes the refute approach. "You are wrong" not let
us explore this idea, maybe people are making an idol of security.

It is why I cannot take you seriously.
I count the logic that founds my life similarly. Reality is ourside ourselves, we only know of its
existance because we build models inside ourselves that correspond to the real world.

The first test of any idea or model is how well it corresponds to the real world and how much
is it pure delusion. So sin or evil behaviour is always reasonably simple to define. Once you get
into denying the need to resolve sin or evil, you know you are into delusion, and various forms
of self deception. So any group who do not focus on where people are really at, live in delusion.

Jesus was always about reality, and walking in the light and truth. So any version of faith has
to reflect that or it is not of Christ and God.

Any unconditional, absolute acceptance of behaviour while claiming perfect morality is just
pure delusion, of the worst sort. You can only get away with this short term because it
destroys peoples lives, and shows itself in betrayal that breaks up personal relationships and
groups. So not surprisingly groups will spring up, rejoice and then disappear with a high
turnover of members, nothing ever working through properly.