Sabbath

[JohnTalmid]

Dear ones who believe in the Holy One of God. I pray you find my addition and love to the last post received in love. If you call him Messiah Yeshua, Jesus Christ, The Way, Truth, Life. Know I have Love for your souls, spirits, and bodies in Messiah.

Sabbath aside for a moment for sake of a few points out of love and in scripture.

Paul teaches to us the way he does so that we do not sin. This truth can be found, "“So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.” Romans 6:11", "“We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.” Romans 6:6, “For one who has died has been set free from sin.” Romans 6:7, “and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.” Romans 6:18, “What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?” Romans 6:1&2

But where did we die? Have you already died?
“Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?” Romans 6:3, “We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.” Romans 6:4, “We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.” Romans 6:6,
So nobody forgets...
“For one who has died has been set free from sin.” Romans 6:7

That means that the "law", (literally Instruction of YHWH your God) is the way of righteousness in Messiah. Outside it is the "law of Moses". Deu 15 “The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brothers—it is to him you shall listen—

If they even don't trust in Messiah for salvation they would be cut off from the assembly of Elohim by The Father's Hand.
This is the Law of Moses...
This is what Paul Spoke of often...
Just because you're son's of Abraham don't think it makes you the people of the Kingdom.
I think Messiah might say something today like.. Don't think you who where born Christian are people of my Kingdom..
To be fair I must also say born in any person who may mistake men's teaching for God's word.

Now second point. What is the, "standard of teaching to which you were committed"?

“But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed,” Romans 6:17
So this wasn't Christianity, Hebrew Roots, or anything else that any of us are familiar with. Unless you fellowship with the Messiah in the flesh??????, wow I wish we could do that. They did. Honest yes or no question. Did Yeshua keep the seventh day Sabbath? Yes Why yes? Because if he didn't then his sacrifice was useless and unperfect. Did Paul keep the seventh day Sabbath? Yes How do we keep it! Without sinning and keeping the faith of Messiah which is as simple as the ten. These are know by the way as the ten thoughts of YHWH. As such Moses had to instruct all to what they meant. This is the testimony against the People. They are the rightous judgments of YHWH Elohim and where the people failed to show Mercy, Faith, or Belief. They sacrificed people who represent the "sin death" who are stoned to death by their peers. What YHWH Elohim was seeking was someone to stand and say wait which one of you has no sin? What does Messiah say?

What is weighed out will be received back plus the blessings or curses of the Law. So go ahead he who has no sin cast the first stone.
And Yahshua didn't condemn her but told many to sin no more...
Much must be forgiven us for teaching errors or acting childish. So the law is of the spirit, if you are in Messiah? No the law was always of the spirit and sin had dominion over you so through the law sin killed you, and me...
Not so however for us who have died together with Messiah, (Baptised). We are no longer under the law. That doesn't mean we can't learn a lot from guarding the law. This is the faith kept by the earliest believers in Messiah Yeshua, the way of the Pure. We're​ talking about a faith so pure it came from the lips of The Word of YHWH Elohim in the perfect Flesh. Nobody can say we have that. What we do have through countless people, nations, governments, dark ages, and wars know what the Seventh day of the 7 day week is. Friday night and Saturday day. If you know the difference between resting in the faith of Messiah and the Sabbath of Messiah there is none, because you can't gain it it's a gift.

 

[Grandpa]

Its not circular at all, I am calling you to be internally consistent because at present you are not. (Not having a go at you, just pointing out the problem with your post).

There was no circular reasoning at all if so demonstrate that it was so.

I simply called you to keep to your own rules. You suggest the 7th day Sabbath should not be kept because it is a carnal commandment. Yet you also said that thou shalt not kill is a carnal commandment. So for you to be internally consistent in what you have said to me you would also no longer obey the law thou shalt not kill in a physical sense Or else by your own reasoning you would be keeping a carnal commandment and thus working for your salvation.

Its straight logic that demonstrates the weakness in your argument for me at least at this point.

I wont address the rest of what you wrote as we have not dealt with this yet. By the way I would like to see from the bible where you get your view of a carnal commandment as stated above.

Blessings brother and thanx for your time.

Ok, I'll try to explain this better.

Christians don't work at any of the law. We don't try to not kill people.

The fruit of the Spirit, namely Love, causes us to "keep" that commandment. Not our work of Love but the Lords work in us.


The whole key to this, ironically, is Rest. We rest in Christ and His Work and He produces the fruit of the Spirit that keeps the spiritual law. So our sufficiency is not in ourselves but in the Lord Jesus Christ.


So, like I said earlier, you guys are correct to put such an emphasis on rest, but you have diverged into your own carnal understanding of what it is.

It's a gift. Not something to work at.


I don't suggest we don't keep the law. I suggest we don't work at it in our own understanding and strength. I suggest we trust that we are Gods Workmanship and it is He who CAUSES us to walk in His Statutes. By us coming to Christ and receiving Rest.

Galatians 3:10-12
[FONT=&quot]10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.


Do you see?[/FONT]

 

[JohnTalmid]

Ok, I'll try to explain this better.

Christians don't work at any of the law. We don't try to not kill people.

The fruit of the Spirit, namely Love, causes us to "keep" that commandment. Not our work of Love but the Lords work in us.


The whole key to this, ironically, is Rest. We rest in Christ and His Work and He produces the fruit of the Spirit that keeps the spiritual law. So our sufficiency is not in ourselves but in the Lord Jesus Christ.


So, like I said earlier, you guys are correct to put such an emphasis on rest, but you have diverged into your own carnal understanding of what it is.

It's a gift. Not something to work at.


I don't suggest we don't keep the law. I suggest we don't work at it in our own understanding and strength. I suggest we trust that we are Gods Workmanship and it is He who CAUSES us to walk in His Statutes. By us coming to Christ and receiving Rest.

Galatians 3:10-12
[FONT=&quot]10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.


Do you see?[/FONT]

11 Now it is evident that pno one is justified before God by the law, for q“The righteous shall live by faith.”4 12 But the law is not of faith, rather r“The one who does them shall live by them.” 13 Christ sredeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, t“Cursed is everyone who is hanged uon a tree”— 14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might vcome to the Gentiles, so that wwe might receive xthe promised Spirit5 through faith.

Do you see?

We live by faith and in them because we are saved not to be saved.

 

[gotime]

Ok, I'll try to explain this better.

Christians don't work at any of the law. We don't try to not kill people.

The fruit of the Spirit, namely Love, causes us to "keep" that commandment. Not our work of Love but the Lords work in us.


The whole key to this, ironically, is Rest. We rest in Christ and His Work and He produces the fruit of the Spirit that keeps the spiritual law. So our sufficiency is not in ourselves but in the Lord Jesus Christ.


So, like I said earlier, you guys are correct to put such an emphasis on rest, but you have diverged into your own carnal understanding of what it is.

It's a gift. Not something to work at.


I don't suggest we don't keep the law. I suggest we don't work at it in our own understanding and strength. I suggest we trust that we are Gods Workmanship and it is He who CAUSES us to walk in His Statutes. By us coming to Christ and receiving Rest.

Galatians 3:10-12
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.


Do you see?

Thanx for that Brother, It is much clearer to my mind what you are saying now. I appreciate you taking the time to clarify for me.

I like much of what you have said here. Maybe this will help you understand my point a little better. Are you aware that for the most part I can totally agree with what you have said above. J

When the love of Christ through the Spirit consumes us we by nature do the things contained in the law. We don't work at it we simply do it by love that compels us in Jesus name. I think of verses like these:

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

We both as far as I can tell agree that what the law is really about is love. It only condemns us because when we read the law and see we don't line up it shows that we do not love. The divergent path we have here is how love and the law apply when it comes to the Sabbath commandment.

I don't know exactly how you approach this but I come at it from Gen 2. The law is the thing that taught me that to not remember the Sabbath day is sin or not loving. But it was not until I went to Gen 2 that I understood why and how.

It is because how can I love God and not acknowledge his work?

See I don't keep the Sabbath to be saved or to earn salvation. I keep it by simply having Gods love in my heart by the Spirit and entering into his work every 7th day. This is aside form entering his rest from sin and death everyday. they are two different things.

Now I do not think that those who don't keep it do not love God. I think it is rather that they don't understand the Sabbath "day" When one understands it as the Holy Work of God then one does not work at it but rather lovingly enters it every week. Just as one enters rest from sin every day by faith in Christ.

 

[JohnTalmid]

What Galations is talking about is what I wrote about earlier. Check it out

 

[JohnTalmid]

Thanx for that Brother, It is much clearer to my mind what you are saying now. I appreciate you taking the time to clarify for me.

I like much of what you have said here. Maybe this will help you understand my point a little better. Are you aware that for the most part I can totally agree with what you have said above. J

When the love of Christ through the Spirit consumes us we by nature do the things contained in the law. We don't work at it we simply do it by love that compels us in Jesus name. I think of verses like these:

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

We both as far as I can tell agree that what the law is really about is love. It only condemns us because when we read the law and see we don't line up it shows that we do not love. The divergent path we have here is how love and the law apply when it comes to the Sabbath commandment.

I don't know exactly how you approach this but I come at it from Gen 2. The law is the thing that taught me that to not remember the Sabbath day is sin or not loving. But it was not until I went to Gen 2 that I understood why and how.

It is because how can I love God and not acknowledge his work?

See I don't keep the Sabbath to be saved or to earn salvation. I keep it by simply having Gods love in my heart by the Spirit and entering into his work every 7th day. This is aside form entering his rest from sin and death everyday. they are two different things.

Now I do not think that those who don't keep it do not love God. I think it is rather that they don't understand the Sabbath "day" When one understands it as the Holy Work of God then one does not work at it but rather lovingly enters it every week. Just as one enters rest from sin every day by faith in Christ.

This can be true.. Many people who don't keep Sabbath today can love God. However their love should lead to doing and not just teaching Jesus is their Sabbath because this is an immature faith.

 

[Grace777x70]

The real keeping of the Sabbath is resting in Christ Himself and in His finished work on the cross and resurrection and ceasing from our own works. The Old Testament "shadow" of the Sabbath speaks of Christ - and it is not in the carnal keeping of a certain day.

People are free to esteem one day from another if they like but if someone says that if you don't keep the Old Testament Sabbath especially as outlined in the law of Moses and you are disobeying God or that you are sinning. Run from them as this is a Judaizer spirit and it is a perversion of the gospel of the grace of God in Christ.

 

[Grandpa]

Thanx for that Brother, It is much clearer to my mind what you are saying now. I appreciate you taking the time to clarify for me.

I like much of what you have said here. Maybe this will help you understand my point a little better. Are you aware that for the most part I can totally agree with what you have said above. J

When the love of Christ through the Spirit consumes us we by nature do the things contained in the law. We don't work at it we simply do it by love that compels us in Jesus name. I think of verses like these:

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

We both as far as I can tell agree that what the law is really about is love.

Hey, so far so good!!!

It only condemns us because when we read the law and see we don't line up it shows that we do not love. The divergent path we have here is how love and the law apply when it comes to the Sabbath commandment.

Oh-oh. You have circled back to your understanding of a carnal commandment.

I don't know exactly how you approach this but I come at it from Gen 2. The law is the thing that taught me that to not remember the Sabbath day is sin or not loving. But it was not until I went to Gen 2 that I understood why and how.

It is because how can I love God and not acknowledge his work?

See I don't keep the Sabbath to be saved or to earn salvation. I keep it by simply having Gods love in my heart by the Spirit and entering into his work every 7th day. This is aside form entering his rest from sin and death everyday. they are two different things.

Now I do not think that those who don't keep it do not love God. I think it is rather that they don't understand the Sabbath "day" When one understands it as the Holy Work of God then one does not work at it but rather lovingly enters it every week. Just as one enters rest from sin every day by faith in Christ.

Read Hebrews 4 and then Matthew 11:28

That is the closest that I can get you.

If you are looking back to the OT to attempt to keep and/or observe those laws then, at the very least, you are attempting to mix law with grace.

Galatians 5 the whole chapter and,

Hebrews 7:11-19
[FONT=&quot]11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.[/FONT]

 

[gotime]

Hey, so far so good!!!


Oh-oh. You have circled back to your understanding of a carnal commandment.

Read Hebrews 4 and then Matthew 11:28

That is the closest that I can get you.

If you are looking back to the OT to attempt to keep and/or observe those laws then, at the very least, you are attempting to mix law with grace.

Galatians 5 the whole chapter and,

Hebrews 7:11-19
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Just a quick point, I am not looking at the law/10 commandments for the Sabbath. Genesis 2 is my reference.

 

[JohnTalmid]

Just a quick point, I am not looking at the law/10 commandments for the Sabbath. Genesis 2 is my reference.

To go back this far is necessary and "the beginning" declares the end very well

 

[Grandpa]

Just a quick point, I am not looking at the law/10 commandments for the Sabbath. Genesis 2 is my reference.

If Genesis 2 was your reference then you would emphasize Rest and not a day.

Do you know why this is true?

Because God didn't go back to His Work of Creation on the 8th day. He didn't Re-Rest on the 14thday...


You are emphasizing what YOU can do, your work, when the emphasis should always be on what God Does.

Ephesians 2:8-9
[FONT=&quot]8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I wonder how much of this you understand? It seems like most of it... and yet you still insist on circling back to your own work at the law.

I wonder why I continue to insist on explaining it to you over and over? Maybe it is for the benefit of others as well as yourself. Whosoever will... lol[/FONT]

 

[gotime]

If Genesis 2 was your reference then you would emphasize Rest and not a day.

Do you know why this is true?

Because God didn't go back to His Work of Creation on the 8th day. He didn't Re-Rest on the 14thday...


You are emphasizing what YOU can do, your work, when the emphasis should always be on what God Does.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I wonder how much of this you understand? It seems like most of it... and yet you still insist on circling back to your own work at the law.

I wonder why I continue to insist on explaining it to you over and over? Maybe it is for the benefit of others as well as yourself. Whosoever will... lol

You said if Genesis 2 was my ref then I would emphasise rest not a day.

Now I am confused lol. how is it that you do not see that God blessed and made holy a day here?

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

It is most clear to my mind that God rested or ceased from his work of creation on the 7th "day" And because of that fact He blessed and sanctified the 7th Day.

I am not emphasising what I can do but rather what God has done how do you not see that? God rested, God set it as holy God blessed it and it is a day.

As far as Ephesians goes it does not apply to this talk as I can see. which makes me realise that you are not coming at this at the same angle I am.

I do not believe or teach nor have I ever that I am aware of that salvation comes from any sort of work even keeping the Sabbath. If you think that then you have misunderstood me. To keep the Sabbath is not about what you can do for God. It is about what God has done for us via creation.

To keep it holy is to acknowledge that it is holy by Gods work.

It is no wonder that God surrounded the sacrificial laws with extra Sabbaths. Because the lesson of the Sabbath of creation is the same as the lesson of the sacrificial Sabbaths as salvation via recreation of the heart.

Are you aware that there are two Sabbaths in scripture?

one is connected to creation as a finished work of Christ. The other is connected to the sacrificial work of Christ.

I think you are confusing the two and making them one. this could be where we digress. not sure.

 

[JohnTalmid]

You said if Genesis 2 was my ref then I would emphasise rest not a day.

Now I am confused lol. how is it that you do not see that God blessed and made holy a day here?

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

It is most clear to my mind that God rested or ceased from his work of creation on the 7th "day" And because of that fact He blessed and sanctified the 7th Day.

I am not emphasising what I can do but rather what God has done how do you not see that? God rested, God set it as holy God blessed it and it is a day.

As far as Ephesians goes it does not apply to this talk as I can see. which makes me realise that you are not coming at this at the same angle I am.

I do not believe or teach nor have I ever that I am aware of that salvation comes from any sort of work even keeping the Sabbath. If you think that then you have misunderstood me. To keep the Sabbath is not about what you can do for God. It is about what God has done for us via creation.

To keep it holy is to acknowledge that it is holy by Gods work.

It is no wonder that God surrounded the sacrificial laws with extra Sabbaths. Because the lesson of the Sabbath of creation is the same as the lesson of the sacrificial Sabbaths as salvation via recreation of the heart.

Are you aware that there are two Sabbaths in scripture?

one is connected to creation as a finished work of Christ. The other is connected to the sacrificial work of Christ.

I think you are confusing the two and making them one. this could be where we digress. not sure.

This I am sure is true. There are many examples of a Sabbath being confirmed in the word as a day of rest around the feasts of YHWH. These shadows have yet to come an even greater fulfillment. The certain hope for things to come etc... Then there is the creation Sabbath which we too if we belong to God and Messiah are to enter into.

 

[JohnTalmid]

One of the greatest festivals lasts 7 days and has another festival the day after that. Tabernacles is the festival of "God with us" and is sorounded by Sabbaths to remind us the work of entering in is done and even this feast is a gift of good works pleasing to God, if we celebrate it by faith

 

[beta]

Good posts 'gotime and John T ! and delivered with love and patience !
I can see that those opposing our stance are coming from a different angle and hopefully there will be a ''meeting at some point.
Reminds me of the construction of the 'underground channel crossing some years ago between England and France and the 'relief and joy on the faces of all the workers when they met in the middle. It was a sight to behold for all of us watching on TV when they broke through the last barrier of rock...embraced and hugged each other.
That is what it will be for us if we keep to correct timing and direction ONLY coming from the Word of God !
We are supposed to be DOERS of the Word - not hearers only. Christ WORKS hitherto and so should we as COworkers...not to get or earn something but that we might work the works of God...for which we are being created (anew) in Christ Jesus !

 

[gotime]

Maybe it will help to give a quick example of why I cannot at this point accept this view that Jesus replaced the Sabbath or that He is the Sabbath of the Commandment.

If we examine the commandment itself one thing becomes clear. Lets take a look:

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

We note that the very commandment is to keep in memory, Its a reminder but of what? The commandment is clear in V11, Creation is the reference point for the 7th Day Sabbath. Note also that it specifies the 7th day as the Sabbath day and its reason is that God made it holy.

First there is no hint here that this is some shadow pointing forward to anything. Yet there is clear instruction that it points back to the finished work of God in creation.

This further is clarified when we go back and find this very point in Genesis 2

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Here is the reason God said to keep it in mind and to keep it. note not (make) but "keep" it holy. It was already holy. This suggests very strongly that what God did on the 7th day of creation carried on with a 7 day cycle. Hence the reason to this day we have a 7 day week.

Next I will deal with objections to this, but keep in mind I have yet to hear or see a single argument that refutes the verses above or genuinely deals with them in their own right. (Thus the reason I maintain my position)

 

[gotime]

Now some might use this text to say it is done away with:

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Now at first glance this may seem like a valid argument. Until one actually looks at what we did above and realises that The 7th day Sabbath was a literal day in scripture and was literally blessed and literally made Holy By God and was literally connected to a work that was already finished and not one to come.

So with that in mind one would naturally search the scriptures to see what it is that Paul talked about, Is there any Sabbaths outside of the 7th day Sabbath that held lessons of salvation and also were connected to things that were to come?

The answer is a resounding Yes there are. There are sacrificial Sabbath that were directly connected to a sacrifice/animal for the sins of sinners. This indeed is a shadow of Christ and Christ did indeed bring us this rest from sin by his own blood.

Many confuse the two Sabbaths and make them one. But they both clearly in scripture serve two different functions. One for salvation the other for creation.

One finished at the beginning and one finished at the cross.

One instituted before sin was an issue on earth the other instituted as a result of sin on the earth.

Other than the things mentioned above, One simply to ask, If Christ came to deal with the sin problem, why would that effect His work before sin? If Christ came to restore then why would that take away what He made good?

The 7th day Sabbath is pre sin according to scripture. It pointed to a finished work of creation according to scripture. It is not a shadow. So we then logically and in response to scripture can see clearly that Paul did not have the 7th day Sabbath in mine here as Paul understood and taught from scripture.

 

[Grandpa]

Are we supposed to do both?

Rest in Christ and work at our understanding of the law?

If one is good then 2 are better, right? No...

Galatians 3:10 [FONT=&quot]For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

You can't, even for a second, point back to the OT for the reason you attempt to 'keep' the law and try to say you aren't working at it.

Galatians 5:1-4
[/FONT]1[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

I wouldn't attempt to refute your OT scriptures. They are what was required in the law.

I only refute that Christians are supposed to be working at the carnal understanding of what people think the law is saying.

DO you guys just not believe in the New Testament? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]

 

[gotime]

Are we supposed to do both?

Rest in Christ and work at our understanding of the law?

If one is good then 2 are better, right? No...

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

You can't, even for a second, point back to the OT for the reason you attempt to 'keep' the law and try to say you aren't working at it.

Galatians 5:1-4
1Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

I wouldn't attempt to refute your OT scriptures. They are what was required in the law.

I only refute that Christians are supposed to be working at the carnal understanding of what people think the law is saying.

DO you guys just not believe in the New Testament?

Hey Grandpa, thank you again for your response. I appreciate your graciousness and long suffering with me lol. Bless you my Brother in Christ.

My main aim here is not so much to establish my point but rather to grasp where it is that we differ and at very least come to an understanding of each other. The benefits I see is that you and I will be more able to deal rightly on these things.

I will not address everything you h ave written above as I really want to get to the crux of what I see is keeping us apart in understanding.

You quoted two scriptures above which I can only assume you think goes against what I believe and teach. I can assure you I am paying attention to your posts and am reading them. But here is where the problem is for me at least.

It would seem that by these texts you think I think that the works of the law justify me in some way. But I don't in fact I know the law can not save me.

See you need to understand that I don't see myself as under the law, nor do I think that the works of the law save or help with salvation. I do not rely on my works or the law to help me in any way other than showing me I need a saviour and instruction in righteousness of which I fall short of thus the need for a saviour.

What is my point?

If you are going to convince me that these texts apply to me you would first have to demonstrate from scripture that I do indeed have a salvation that is by works. As Yet I don't see that at all, I am free from the law in Christ, I am justified in Christ apart from the law. Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to those who by faith accept the Finished work of Jesus on the cross. His death and resurrection.

So at present when you quote those verses I simply say amen and am left thinking why does he think I don't agree with this and believe this already?

I don't know if this helps you refine your argument but hopefully you can see a little better why the texts you have quoted above don't sway me at all.

blessings.

 

[Grandpa]

Hey Grandpa, thank you again for your response. I appreciate your graciousness and long suffering with me lol. Bless you my Brother in Christ.

My main aim here is not so much to establish my point but rather to grasp where it is that we differ and at very least come to an understanding of each other. The benefits I see is that you and I will be more able to deal rightly on these things.

I will not address everything you h ave written above as I really want to get to the crux of what I see is keeping us apart in understanding.

You quoted two scriptures above which I can only assume you think goes against what I believe and teach. I can assure you I am paying attention to your posts and am reading them. But here is where the problem is for me at least.

It would seem that by these texts you think I think that the works of the law justify me in some way. But I don't in fact I know the law can not save me.

See you need to understand that I don't see myself as under the law, nor do I think that the works of the law save or help with salvation. I do not rely on my works or the law to help me in any way other than showing me I need a saviour and instruction in righteousness of which I fall short of thus the need for a saviour.

What is my point?

If you are going to convince me that these texts apply to me you would first have to demonstrate from scripture that I do indeed have a salvation that is by works. As Yet I don't see that at all, I am free from the law in Christ, I am justified in Christ apart from the law. Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to those who by faith accept the Finished work of Jesus on the cross. His death and resurrection.

So at present when you quote those verses I simply say amen and am left thinking why does he think I don't agree with this and believe this already?

I don't know if this helps you refine your argument but hopefully you can see a little better why the texts you have quoted above don't sway me at all.

blessings.

If you aren't trying to convince other Christians that they should be working at the law that is good.

But if you can't see that you have placed yourself back under the law then I probably can't convince you.

You posted the verses in Exodus to prove your point. That's the law.

All I can gather from that is that you just don't understand that if you place yourself under part of the law then you have placed yourself under all of it. You can't just pick and choose which laws you like and which you don't like.

Thats what Galatians is trying to tell you. Don't go back to the yoke of bondage. Stay in Christ.