Not By Works

[BillG]

Now let me take this small point. It is something that is sad, hurtful, miss-leading, odd, uncaring,
inappropriate, incorrect, miss-interpretation, miss-appropriation of meaning, discouraging, condemning,
dishonouring of the Lord and His ways, not recognising the value of scripture no matter how small.

A quote is given so that something of value is brought out. If quoting scripture became a moral stand,
who could actually stop reading, in case someone else decided you should not stop there.

And on me quoting scripture, which point am I making? Do I actually say, or do I just quote it?
So as a reader you read in what you want. If you want you can read the context further.

I thought it was an interesting contrast about how the apostles were being treated and how their
motives where pure and wholesome.

So I am then found guilty of a crime, and then condemned for sin.
I do not really need to say much more, because the response really says it all.

One trait I notice about a group of people, they feel they can say anything and imply what
the like, even when it is meaningless because for some reason it makes sense to them.
And I suppose it does. God bless you, I am not quite sure what you woke up from and what
you are intending to become, but this is not a good start.

Hey PJ I think firstly I would say given your first paragraph it's actually not a small point, not to you anyway, you say sad, hurtful, uncaring and so on, so to me you are actually saying it's a big point.

To me in a sense your last sentence negates your post.

All limey was doing was asking why stop at verse 3.

Limey I do have to say though "oops you comitted your first sin today" was a bit harsh.

Any response that is percieved as negative will never be a good starting point, it puts barriers up and then it builds on self preservation.

Given your quote about the apostles it seems to me that you are being treated as to how the apostles were treated, to you you're motives are pure and holy but you must recognise so are those who disagree with you.

 

[PeterJens]

In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Phil 2:5-11

Amen, what a King we follow, what great things He asks to do in His name
and for His glory.

 

[BillG]

In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Phil 2:5-11

Amen, what a King we follow, what great things He asks to do in His name
and for His glory.

What point are you trying to make with the above verses

 

[Ariel82]

John 14:27 “Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid.”

John 20:18 “On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.

Roman 8:6 “For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.”

Colossians 3:15 “And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body. And be thankful.”

Isaiah 53:5 “But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed.”

Second Thessalonians 3:16 “Now may the Lord of peace himself give you peace at all times in every way. The Lord be with you all.”

John 16:33 “I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world.”

 

[Ariel82]

What point are you trying to make with the above verses

So we stop talking about peace and safety in Christ?

 

[followjesus]

1 John 4:18 ►
New International Version
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

New Living Translation
Such love has no fear, because perfect love expels all fear. If we are afraid, it is for fear of punishment, and this shows that we have not fully experienced his perfect love.

English Standard Version
There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.

Berean Study Bible
There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear involves punishment. The one who fears has not been perfected in love.

Berean Literal Bible
There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear has punishment; and the one fearing has not been perfected in love.

New American Standard Bible
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.

King James Bible
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love."

1 john 4:16-19 "And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. 17Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. 18There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. 19We love him, because he first loved us."

1 john 5:2-3 "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous."

1 john 2: 3-6 :And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But WHOSO KEEPTH HIS WORD, in him VERILY IS THE LOVE OF GOD PERFECTED: hereby know we that we are in him. 6He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked."

1 john 4:18 "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love."


eternal security is to walk in the word, it leaves no fear of punishment and things like this written by the wisest man on earth ( apart from Jesus) leave no fear.

ecclesiastes 12:13-14 "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil." see romans 2:5-11. matthew ch 25

 

[Ariel82]

1 John 5:13 - “I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.”

2 Corinthians 5:1, 5 - “We know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens…He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.”

Hebrews 10:21, 23 - “Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith…Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering.”

Blessed assurance is another way of saying eternal security,

 

[Ariel82]

Eternal security is walking With the Word, Christ Jesus...through the guidance of His Holy spirit.

 

[PeterJens]

Hey PJ I think firstly I would say given your first paragraph it's actually not a small point, not to you anyway, you say sad, hurtful, uncaring and so on, so to me you are actually saying it's a big point.

To me in a sense your last sentence negates your post.

All limey was doing was asking why stop at verse 3.

Limey I do have to say though "oops you comitted your first sin today" was a bit harsh.

Any response that is percieved as negative will never be a good starting point, it puts barriers up and then it builds on self preservation.

Given your quote about the apostles it seems to me that you are being treated as to how the apostles were treated, to you you're motives are pure and holy but you must recognise so are those who disagree with you.

God bless you. I know nothing of these people, and that is probably the best.
I just praise my Lord, because there is nothing to be gained by such absurd provocation.
It speaks for itself, for out of the mouth or keyboard comes what the heart is full of.

 

[PeterJens]

What point are you trying to make with the above verses

Bill, we are here interacting, here is Paul encouraging us to know how to interact.
It is always harder to think the best of others, and respect their experiences in Christ,
and in life that assume the worst and try and slant things negatively.

Jesus was a servant, so may we and I manage to serve others and help bring them
closer to Him. Amen

 

[BillG]

God bless you. I know nothing of these people, and that is probably the best.
I just praise my Lord, because there is nothing to be gained by such absurd provocation.
It speaks for itself, for out of the mouth or keyboard comes what the heart is full of.

What people? Who are you referring to?
Whats provocation to you?
Can it not be reciprocated?

 

[PeterJens]

What point are you trying to make with the above verses

My heart is more recently turned to the idea we bear others sufferings to help love
and grace spread. It is not about suffering or punishing oneself in a pious fashion, but
understanding suffering and forgiving is part of who we are.

It is a flip side of Jesus needs to heal our wounds to bring wholeness within. How emotionally
one handles this is something I am beginning to get my head around, but it is not simple.
It takes great strength and communion with the Lord, but maybe witness in the end can come
no other way. Stephen challenged the sanhedrin knowing he would probably die, yet he took
this as a greater glory than walking in compromise and silence. This was within a few months
of Jesus being crucified. What a transformation by the Holy Spirit.

 

[PeterJens]

What people? Who are you referring to?
Whats provocation to you?
Can it not be reciprocated?

We are called just to bless and forgive, to lift up Christ, so it is all irrelevant.
That is the point, these battles are nothing, it is only blessing and love that flows
that has eternal significance. This has always been what it means to grow in maturity,
to not be that worried, but see the principles of righteousness and victory through
the Holy Spirit for eternity, Amen.

 

[PeterJens]

Do everything without grumbling or arguing, so that you may become

blameless and pure,

“children of God without fault in a warped and crooked generation.”

Then you will shine among them like stars in the sky as you hold firmly to the word of life.

Phil 2:14-16

Wow. We are to be like stars in this world, blameless and pure,
without grumbling or arguing.

Paul had a real vision for the witness of Gods people, glorious in ambition
and grandeur, except some would deny the pure blameless part,
and would dispute who actually was really a true star or not, lol.

So I think we have some way to go before this would be a reality here on
this thread, but nothing is impossible for God and His love in Christ and the
cross.

 

[BillG]

Do everything without grumbling or arguing, so that you may become

blameless and pure,

“children of God without fault in a warped and crooked generation.”

Then you will shine among them like stars in the sky as you hold firmly to the word of life.

Phil 2:14-16

Wow. We are to be like stars in this world, blameless and pure,
without grumbling or arguing.

Paul had a real vision for the witness of Gods people, glorious in ambition
and grandeur, except some would deny the pure blameless part,
and would dispute who actually was really a true star or not, lol.

So I think we have some way to go before this would be a reality here on
this thread, but nothing is impossible for God and His love in Christ and the
cross.

so what's the pure and blameless part, how does it work in us. Is it constant in us? If so how so?
If not why not? If it's not then the constant is broken.

 

[followjesus]

1 John 5:13 - “I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.”

2 Corinthians 5:1, 5 - “We know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens…He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.”

Hebrews 10:21, 23 - “Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith…Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering.”

Blessed assurance is another way of saying eternal security,

sure

wouldnt you say that scriptures like you have shared here, fit perfectly with the others ? hen John says these things i have written to you so that you may Know.....doesnt that include what He has written concerning the commandments and walking in those things as well being part of what assures us? or do we Just quote " these things i have written so you may know? do you se what im saying?

security comes from perfect Love, perfect Love happens as He makes very plain, Love is defined very plain there as well, and to me anyways, its important to take all of it in and not have to choose one verse over the rest.

1 john 5:2-3 "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous." doesnt this say kind of the same thing Jesus said about keeping His commands because we Love him? and what paul says about Love keeping the commandments as well?

and then this to me anyways tells us where the perfect Love happens, again by keeping the word, like Jesus says so many times as well

1 john 2: 3-6 :And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But WHOSO KEEPTH HIS WORD, in him VERILY IS THE LOVE OF GOD PERFECTED: hereby know we that we are in him. 6He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked."

i guess my own point is we dont need to decide which parts to believe, and just believe what the word says things like the above scriptures are so straight forward in my own mind that to disassociate them from a statement like

Perfect Love casts out fear" or " we love because He first Loved us" <<those statements are true, but its also made clear how those thing happen and our own part in this covenant. which is to let the word make us dead to sin and be born again through the word.

 

[JIMBO43]

John 14:27 “Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid.”

John 20:18 “On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.

Roman 8:6 “For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.”

Colossians 3:15 “And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body. And be thankful.”

Isaiah 53:5 “But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed.”

Second Thessalonians 3:16 “Now may the Lord of peace himself give you peace at all times in every way. The Lord be with you all.”

John 16:33 “I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world.”

notice that in this paragraph it instructs you to perform a good works

Colossians 3:15 “And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body. And be thankful.” God blessing to you sister if you perform this work.

 

[followjesus]

Eternal security is walking With the Word, Christ Jesus...through the guidance of His Holy spirit.

amen, would you say the holy spirit is tied to the words of Jesus?

john 14:15-17 "If ye love me, keep my commandments.16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."

and again a little frther along the spirit helps us by ?

john 14:25-26 "These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."

which sort of highlights the things in 1 john we both quoted, when we say the spirit, its the word that brings the spirit

john 3:5-6 "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

john 6:63 "It is the spirit that QUIKENETH; the flesh profiteth nothing: THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK UNTO YOU, they ARE SPIRIT, and they are LIFE."

confirmed again here

1 peter 1:23 "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the WORD OF GOD, which liveth and abideth for ever."

and here

matthew 25:34 "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away."

and this also shows the power to change us through the word of God

Hebrews 4:12 "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

im not at all trying to affect anyone sense of security, im Just sharing some things that are there, and i know are true. and adding to your original thought of perfect Love casting fear out, it happens in us by the words of Our Lord.

 

[PeterJens]

so what's the pure and blameless part, how does it work in us. Is it constant in us? If so how so?
If not why not? If it's not then the constant is broken.

Very good questions.
I think of purity like clean water without dirt or contamination, or things that will harm.
Blameless seems to be without things that will lead to failure or problems or evil or sin.

Where I am at the moment is to ask the question, am I pure, am I blameless?
Paul seems to be implying yes, unless there is obvious unresolved sin, and love is
flowing in your heart.

I read a testimony of a man who in his 40's was sleeping around with young women,
in their early 20's. He came to the Lord and immediately wanted to share Christ rather
than indulge his passions.

I think this is where we miss what is often right before us.

 

[JIMBO43]

Thats because they believe in salvation by works, The same legalistic tactic used by religion that got them to kill them selves to begin with.

i think youll find that what your talking about is an evil works ...

This is so out there et that youve totaly lost it to suggest that... but hey it doesnt matter anymore coz your right and that makes it ok..

Seariously to call terroism a works based salvationist belief is just so far out here,,,, coz i cant see someone who believes in Good works would think that terrorism is a works based salvation belief..bonkers mate what ya been smoking again..