Not By Works
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This is a shocking idea.
Could people be deceiving themselves as destined to heaven no matter what they do because
as some point in their lives they professed faith in Jesus?
And could people be calling others lost and doomed to hell only because they have this false
assurance of salvation, while falling deeper into the addictions of sin?
I wonder if satan could be involved in such deceptions?
And is it possible the truly lost appear as angels of light, contradicting the very words of
Christ yet claiming they have true spiritual authority?
Wow. I wonder what is actually going on. Life, death, heaven and hell are just mild
everyday subjects, and excusing evil and sinful behaviour is really where Christ is at?
I mean the group of believers are the elect and Jesus is going to affirm their lives
because they believe verses in scripture while denying the Lord in their lives.
Yes that really makes sense and the Lord of all who sees everything forgives
unrepentant sin?
Could people be deceiving themselves as destined to heaven no matter what they do because
as some point in their lives they professed faith in Jesus?
And could people be calling others lost and doomed to hell only because they have this false
assurance of salvation, while falling deeper into the addictions of sin?
I wonder if satan could be involved in such deceptions?
And is it possible the truly lost appear as angels of light, contradicting the very words of
Christ yet claiming they have true spiritual authority?
Wow. I wonder what is actually going on. Life, death, heaven and hell are just mild
everyday subjects, and excusing evil and sinful behaviour is really where Christ is at?
I mean the group of believers are the elect and Jesus is going to affirm their lives
because they believe verses in scripture while denying the Lord in their lives.
Yes that really makes sense and the Lord of all who sees everything forgives
unrepentant sin?
It works for believers. Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God IMPUTES righteousness apart from works:
Philippians 3:9 - and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith.
Your true colors are really showing here.
Jesus and genuine faith is enough. To merely "claim" to have faith in Jesus and actually having faith in Jesus are two different things. Genuine believers know His words, know Him and His commands and how to follow. It dwells in the heart of genuine believers and God is their King and Savior. Many claim to know His words and follow Jesus but do not have genuine faith in Jesus.
More straw man arguments and it sounds like NOT having security in Jesus has become your idol.
Believers don't like your points because they are straw man arguments. For you to reject imputed righteousness (which is Biblical) and for you to say that JESUS AND FAITH IS NOT ENOUGH explains a lot!
Philippians 3:9 - and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith.
Your true colors are really showing here.
Jesus and genuine faith is enough. To merely "claim" to have faith in Jesus and actually having faith in Jesus are two different things. Genuine believers know His words, know Him and His commands and how to follow. It dwells in the heart of genuine believers and God is their King and Savior. Many claim to know His words and follow Jesus but do not have genuine faith in Jesus.
More straw man arguments and it sounds like NOT having security in Jesus has become your idol.
Believers don't like your points because they are straw man arguments. For you to reject imputed righteousness (which is Biblical) and for you to say that JESUS AND FAITH IS NOT ENOUGH explains a lot!
Believers don't like your points because they are straw man arguments. For you to reject imputed righteousness (which is Biblical) and for you to say that JESUS AND FAITH IS NOT ENOUGH explains a lot!
Christ cleansed and purified him. It is the righteousness that comes through Christ,
but it can be interpreted to mean imputed as you do.
The problem is this is not Pauls language. Paul was pure, holy, blameless.
Now we are counted as righteous because of our faith, not our actions, but it
is Christs righteousness that bought us forgiveness of sins through the cross, not
imputing it to us, like a covering.
The whole point of the gospel is the create a holy, redeemed people walking
righteously. It is obvious many, especially from the charismatic fellowships do
not believe this, and actively call it evil to even suggest this is Jesus's mission.
But I now wonder what hidden obvious sin is driving this belief?
It is no short leap to say pornography is probably it, given this communication
is on the internet, and the power of porn is very strong and addictive.
Until people can start to get honest about sin, and its hold in their lives, faith
will always be undermined.
Until people hear the true gospel of the grace of God in Christ and not a works-based - works-righteousness false gospel - sin will continue to dominate them.
For the religious belief system mind - malice and the slandering of others in the body of Christ is ok as long as you don't do sexual sins and keep your purity. These have sin dominating them just like those that live a homosexual lifestyle.
With one side of their mouth they "praise God" and with the other side they curse the very ones that Jesus redeemed with His own blood. I find it very odd that some that say we are to "walk righteously and in purity of heart" are the very ones speaking foul things to others in the body of Christ and think nothing of it.
James 3:8-10 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But no one can tame the tongue; it is a restless evil and full of deadly poison.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God;
[SUP]10 [/SUP] from the same mouth come both blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be this way.
For the religious belief system mind - malice and the slandering of others in the body of Christ is ok as long as you don't do sexual sins and keep your purity. These have sin dominating them just like those that live a homosexual lifestyle.
With one side of their mouth they "praise God" and with the other side they curse the very ones that Jesus redeemed with His own blood. I find it very odd that some that say we are to "walk righteously and in purity of heart" are the very ones speaking foul things to others in the body of Christ and think nothing of it.
James 3:8-10 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But no one can tame the tongue; it is a restless evil and full of deadly poison.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God;
[SUP]10 [/SUP] from the same mouth come both blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be this way.
The power of a straw man.
People love to say that is just a straw man. The truth is we live in a world of straw men,
the worst one is the one we keep of ourselves in our heads. We often think of ourselves
much better than we are, and then run ourselves down much worse than we are.
Jesus came to bring truth, love and reality to our hearts so we can know who we are
and love and live from the basis of real life. This is the power of the gospel, nothing pretend
or fake, you see it all as it is.
Now if you cannot face this, why are you following Jesus? This is His kingdom, the kingdom
of light where things are brought into the open and we delight in the freedom He brings.
Now I can be wrong about many things, but in this arena it is not difficult to be right in
Christ, it just takes a pure heart and a desire to walk righteously.
As Paul says to timothy,
Flee the evil desires of youth and
pursue righteousness,
faith,
love and
peace,
along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
2 Tim 2:22
Now this is a simple goal. So I ask you, those who feel resistance, you say you follow
Jesus, why do you rebel against these words?
Bring it to Christ, because there is freedom at the end, and healing and great joy.
It grieves me that there are some who will feel anger and condemnation, and believe
I am speaking from the enemy.
Where my friends has satan deceived you so thoroughly that the very word of God
cannot speak to your heart? Repent and confess your sins to Christ and He will
heal you.
Thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ
1 cor 15:57
People love to say that is just a straw man. The truth is we live in a world of straw men,
the worst one is the one we keep of ourselves in our heads. We often think of ourselves
much better than we are, and then run ourselves down much worse than we are.
Jesus came to bring truth, love and reality to our hearts so we can know who we are
and love and live from the basis of real life. This is the power of the gospel, nothing pretend
or fake, you see it all as it is.
Now if you cannot face this, why are you following Jesus? This is His kingdom, the kingdom
of light where things are brought into the open and we delight in the freedom He brings.
Now I can be wrong about many things, but in this arena it is not difficult to be right in
Christ, it just takes a pure heart and a desire to walk righteously.
As Paul says to timothy,
Flee the evil desires of youth and
pursue righteousness,
faith,
love and
peace,
along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
2 Tim 2:22
Now this is a simple goal. So I ask you, those who feel resistance, you say you follow
Jesus, why do you rebel against these words?
Bring it to Christ, because there is freedom at the end, and healing and great joy.
It grieves me that there are some who will feel anger and condemnation, and believe
I am speaking from the enemy.
Where my friends has satan deceived you so thoroughly that the very word of God
cannot speak to your heart? Repent and confess your sins to Christ and He will
heal you.
Thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ
1 cor 15:57
You don't want to mistake "imputed" righteousness for "imparted" righteousness, as Roman Catholics do.
Was Paul pure, holy, blameless apart from the blood of Christ? Was Paul sinless?
What do you think "impute" means? Do you understand what "reckon" and "account" means?
The purpose of the gospel is to save those who BELIEVE. The gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16). Walking righteously as God's redeemed people is what we are saved FOR.
You sound like a man of experience. Has pornography been your vice? Is pride driving your belief to reject imputed righteousness?
Genuine believers are honest about sin and fully understand their complete dependency upon Christ.
Was Paul pure, holy, blameless apart from the blood of Christ? Was Paul sinless?
What do you think "impute" means? Do you understand what "reckon" and "account" means?
The purpose of the gospel is to save those who BELIEVE. The gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16). Walking righteously as God's redeemed people is what we are saved FOR.
You sound like a man of experience. Has pornography been your vice? Is pride driving your belief to reject imputed righteousness?
Genuine believers are honest about sin and fully understand their complete dependency upon Christ.
Interesting proposal. Ignore the definition of sin, and walking righteously and in purity,
and sin will disappear. No hypocracy will rise, because private sin will continue, and it
will be accepted you do not have to be guilty about it, you are righteous no matter what
you do.
This is the old age lie, we are nice people, we could not function as we do if we were not,
you need your mistress, your wealth, gambling, porn, covetousness, greed, security, gluttony
and dare anyone judge you they are the evil condemners full of malice and hatred, envious
of our success. The world has always been this way, and those who preach it.
and sin will disappear. No hypocracy will rise, because private sin will continue, and it
will be accepted you do not have to be guilty about it, you are righteous no matter what
you do.
This is the old age lie, we are nice people, we could not function as we do if we were not,
you need your mistress, your wealth, gambling, porn, covetousness, greed, security, gluttony
and dare anyone judge you they are the evil condemners full of malice and hatred, envious
of our success. The world has always been this way, and those who preach it.
Thank you Dan. In truth I was unaware of the term imparted righteousness.
This appears to be a methodist term though the roman catholics using infused righteousness.
Looking this up led me to a new theological movement that seems more closely to reflect my
discoveries here on cc, which also reflect my walk with Christ.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Perspective_on_Paul
This group are looking at the Law of Christ, rather than pure abandonment of law in its
entirity, as some appear to believe.
It also helps address the issue of good works and our commitment to serve the Lord in
doing them.
Thankyou for this helpful contribution, in my continued walk to testify and give light
to the gospel of Jesus Christ, Amen.
This appears to be a methodist term though the roman catholics using infused righteousness.
Looking this up led me to a new theological movement that seems more closely to reflect my
discoveries here on cc, which also reflect my walk with Christ.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Perspective_on_Paul
This group are looking at the Law of Christ, rather than pure abandonment of law in its
entirity, as some appear to believe.
It also helps address the issue of good works and our commitment to serve the Lord in
doing them.
Thankyou for this helpful contribution, in my continued walk to testify and give light
to the gospel of Jesus Christ, Amen.
A
I agree there is some aspect of what people view is free will that causes confusion.
I believe both believe humans have a will of their own and neither think humans are robots.
Personally I believe that humans can choose good or evil but that we have many spiritual strongholds that war against evil and we are enslaved to sin until God gives us grace and frees us. This begins when we first hear the gospel. Our heart will be like the 4 types of ground.
I do believe God elects some and removes the stones and thorns and birds to make good ground for the seed to grow.
The Seed is Christ Jesus and the first fruit is a saving faith that allows us to confess from the heart that Jesus redeemed us from our sins upon the cross and was resurrected on the 3rd day. He sends us the Holy Spirit to lead and guide us and enable us to cry abba Father!
Yet through it all we have the will or ablity to reject and choose our own path.
However God's will is stronger than our own and He will convince and draw His chosen elect fully to Himself. He does this by helping us tear down spiritual strongholds and showing us His wisdom and plan for out lives. He does this by chastening us when we sin until we have the fruit of righteousness.
I believe both believe humans have a will of their own and neither think humans are robots.
Personally I believe that humans can choose good or evil but that we have many spiritual strongholds that war against evil and we are enslaved to sin until God gives us grace and frees us. This begins when we first hear the gospel. Our heart will be like the 4 types of ground.
I do believe God elects some and removes the stones and thorns and birds to make good ground for the seed to grow.
The Seed is Christ Jesus and the first fruit is a saving faith that allows us to confess from the heart that Jesus redeemed us from our sins upon the cross and was resurrected on the 3rd day. He sends us the Holy Spirit to lead and guide us and enable us to cry abba Father!
Yet through it all we have the will or ablity to reject and choose our own path.
However God's will is stronger than our own and He will convince and draw His chosen elect fully to Himself. He does this by helping us tear down spiritual strongholds and showing us His wisdom and plan for out lives. He does this by chastening us when we sin until we have the fruit of righteousness.
Do you agree with Roman Catholics that we are saved through faith "infused" with works and those works become meritorious towards receiving salvation?
Genuine believers have not abandoned the MORAL aspect of the law, which is summed up by love.
You're welcome, I guess.
What do YOU believe the gospel of Jesus Christ is? Also, please explain to me what YOU believe it means to BELIEVE the gospel (Romans 1:16).
Genuine believers have not abandoned the MORAL aspect of the law, which is summed up by love.
You're welcome, I guess.
What do YOU believe the gospel of Jesus Christ is? Also, please explain to me what YOU believe it means to BELIEVE the gospel (Romans 1:16).
Paul is careful. He describes himself as
You are witnesses, and so is God, of how holy, righteous and blameless we were among you who believed.
1 Thess 2:10
So for a period of time Paul regarded his behaviour as HOLY, RIGHTEOUS, BLAMELESS
Now put this into perspective. How many for even one second are prepared to use this
language about themselves?
This is the problem, the reference points for many are completely removed.
One said that they were sinning every second of the day.
Now this gap between Paul and his words and peoples own experience means they
need a different perspective on God and what He regards as a good, pleasing walk
before Him and what is not.
You are witnesses, and so is God, of how holy, righteous and blameless we were among you who believed.
1 Thess 2:10
So for a period of time Paul regarded his behaviour as HOLY, RIGHTEOUS, BLAMELESS
Now put this into perspective. How many for even one second are prepared to use this
language about themselves?
This is the problem, the reference points for many are completely removed.
One said that they were sinning every second of the day.
Now this gap between Paul and his words and peoples own experience means they
need a different perspective on God and what He regards as a good, pleasing walk
before Him and what is not.
A
Wow...the "New perspective" is just a mixed bag of folks who used to be reformed going back partially to Roman Catholicism and Orthodox church beliefs with some of their own thoughts mixed in as well.
It also redefines what grace "charis" means to favor instead of free unmerited favor....it says God expects something in return.
Also a handful of other terms are redefined.
Kind of concerning.
*******
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Perspective_on_Paul
In 2003, N. T. Wright, distancing himself from both Sanders and Dunn, commented that "there are probably almost as many 'new' perspective positions as there are writers espousing it – and I disagree with most of them".[8]
****
Wright however does not hold the view that good works contribute to one's salvation but rather that the final judgement is something we can look forward to as a future vindication of God's present declaration of our righteousness. In other words, our works are a result of our salvation and the future judgement will show that.[12] Others tend to place a higher value on the importance of good works than the historic Lutheran and Reformed perspectives do, taking the view that they causally contribute to the salvation of the individual
****
The following is a broad sample of different views advocated by various scholars:
E. P. Sanders argued that Paul's central idea was that we mystically spiritually participate in the risen Christ and that all Paul's judicial language was subordinate to the participationary language.[5]
N. T. Wright has argued that Paul sees Israel as representative of humanity and taking onto itself the sinfulness of humanity through history. Jesus, in turn, as Messiah is representative of Israel and so focuses the sins of Israel on himself on the cross. Wright's view is thus a "historicized" form of Penal Substitution.[22]
Chris VanLandingham has argued that Paul sees Christ as having defeated the Devil and as teaching humans how God wants them to live and setting them an example.[23]
David Brondos has argued that Paul sees Jesus as just a part in a wider narrative in which the Church is working to transform lives of individuals and the world, and that Paul's participatory language should be understood in an ethical sense (humans living Christ-like lives) rather than mystically as Sanders thought.[24]
Pilch and Malina take the view that Paul holds to the Satisfaction theory of atonement.[25]
Stephen Finlan holds that Paul uses numerous different metaphors to describe the atonement; “justified by his blood” (Rom 5:9) means that a cultic substance has a judicial effect. Paul also taught the transformation of believers into the image of God through Christ (Theosis).[26]
*****
It also redefines what grace "charis" means to favor instead of free unmerited favor....it says God expects something in return.
Also a handful of other terms are redefined.
Kind of concerning.
*******
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Perspective_on_Paul
In 2003, N. T. Wright, distancing himself from both Sanders and Dunn, commented that "there are probably almost as many 'new' perspective positions as there are writers espousing it – and I disagree with most of them".[8]
****
Wright however does not hold the view that good works contribute to one's salvation but rather that the final judgement is something we can look forward to as a future vindication of God's present declaration of our righteousness. In other words, our works are a result of our salvation and the future judgement will show that.[12] Others tend to place a higher value on the importance of good works than the historic Lutheran and Reformed perspectives do, taking the view that they causally contribute to the salvation of the individual
****
The following is a broad sample of different views advocated by various scholars:
E. P. Sanders argued that Paul's central idea was that we mystically spiritually participate in the risen Christ and that all Paul's judicial language was subordinate to the participationary language.[5]
N. T. Wright has argued that Paul sees Israel as representative of humanity and taking onto itself the sinfulness of humanity through history. Jesus, in turn, as Messiah is representative of Israel and so focuses the sins of Israel on himself on the cross. Wright's view is thus a "historicized" form of Penal Substitution.[22]
Chris VanLandingham has argued that Paul sees Christ as having defeated the Devil and as teaching humans how God wants them to live and setting them an example.[23]
David Brondos has argued that Paul sees Jesus as just a part in a wider narrative in which the Church is working to transform lives of individuals and the world, and that Paul's participatory language should be understood in an ethical sense (humans living Christ-like lives) rather than mystically as Sanders thought.[24]
Pilch and Malina take the view that Paul holds to the Satisfaction theory of atonement.[25]
Stephen Finlan holds that Paul uses numerous different metaphors to describe the atonement; “justified by his blood” (Rom 5:9) means that a cultic substance has a judicial effect. Paul also taught the transformation of believers into the image of God through Christ (Theosis).[26]
*****
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You still did not answer my questions. Was Paul pure, holy, blameless apart from the blood of Christ? Was Paul sinless? Are believers holy, righteous and blameless apart from faith and the blood of Christ?
Do you believe this means that Paul was sinless?
Why was Paul able to refer to himself as holy, righteous, blameless? Was it because he was sinless? You are so focused on behavior that you have lost sight of the cross.
It's either one extreme or the other.
Walk without faith is just talk.
Do you believe this means that Paul was sinless?
Why was Paul able to refer to himself as holy, righteous, blameless? Was it because he was sinless? You are so focused on behavior that you have lost sight of the cross.
It's either one extreme or the other.
Walk without faith is just talk.
E
Do you ever have anything nice to say to anyone?
Do you even know about Islam? Islam is a performance based religion, which says if you have more good deeds than you have bad good deeds, you will get to heaven,
The terrorists uses this to their advantage, by getting people on the brink of not knowing if they are good enough, a sure fure way to get to heaven. Become a martyre for Allah and you get an automatic in, and so much more. WHy do you think they get these kids to do this it is fear based, Which is what all forms of legalism is,, Whether you like to hear ot or not well that does not matter.