Not By Works

[PeterJens]

Has pornography been your vice?

Pornography is like any drug, it has an attraction to me, but was never a vice.
In my teenage years, the emotional impact was surprising and taught me a lot
about how love is really expressed and how sexuality is bound up in who we are
and is both pure and good, but missused, corrupting and destructive.

I am aware of how things have developed and occasionally fallen under its spell.
No man is actually free from its effects because sexual attraction is part of who
we are.

What is shocking, is how a growing number of people live with porn as a slave,
dominating their whole lives.

As believers, avoidance, and rejection is the best approach as it is sinful.

In my 50's I now react differently, and know how things change over ones life
as hormonal balances change. I also know women who know no boundaries, to
whom this culture is lethal and dishonours and demeans their value in life.

I have read among some pastors porn is seen as a way of relief within a difficult
relationship, rather than poison destroying and inflaming problems rather than resolving
them. In the uk sexual slavery is increasing, along with rape and abusive relationships,
were 50% of court cases now are sexual in nature.

So no I do not have a problem, and yes it is always a temptation, but in Christ I am
free.

But if you believe Christ is the King and we walk in life, love and victory it matters
that the world is rotting and going to hell.

So what I am reflecting is shock at how this poison is growing and destroying whole
generations of people. We truly need a desire for purity and love, knowing Christ and
his redemption flowing through us.

 

[BillG]

Pornography is like any drug, it has an attraction to me, but was never a vice.
In my teenage years, the emotional impact was surprising and taught me a lot
about how love is really expressed and how sexuality is bound up in who we are
and is both pure and good, but missused, corrupting and destructive.

I am aware of how things have developed and occasionally fallen under its spell.
No man is actually free from its effects because sexual attraction is part of who
we are.

What is shocking, is how a growing number of people live with porn as a slave,
dominating their whole lives.

As believers, avoidance, and rejection is the best approach as it is sinful.

In my 50's I now react differently, and know how things change over ones life
as hormonal balances change. I also know women who know no boundaries, to
whom this culture is lethal and dishonours and demeans their value in life.

I have read among some pastors porn is seen as a way of relief within a difficult
relationship, rather than poison destroying and inflaming problems rather than resolving
them. In the uk sexual slavery is increasing, along with rape and abusive relationships,
were 50% of court cases now are sexual in nature.

So no I do not have a problem, and yes it is always a temptation, but in Christ I am
free.

But if you believe Christ is the King and we walk in life, love and victory it matters
that the world is rotting and going to hell.

So what I am reflecting is shock at how this poison is growing and destroying whole
generations of people. We truly need a desire for purity and love, knowing Christ and
his redemption flowing through us.

That doesn't just apply to porn though does it?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is a shocking idea.

Could people be deceiving themselves as destined to heaven no matter what they do because
as some point in their lives they professed faith in Jesus?

Dude, get over yourself. This is not even close to being the truth. If you can not humble yourself to try to figure out what others teach, then just stop it. Your slanderous ways are evil and they are getting old.

No one thinks they will get to heaven because at one time in their life they had faith. THATS TOTAL RUBBISH!!

 

[Roughsoul1991]

I agree there is some aspect of what people view is free will that causes confusion.

I believe both believe humans have a will of their own and neither think humans are robots.

Personally I believe that humans can choose good or evil but that we have many spiritual strongholds that war against evil and we are enslaved to sin until God gives us grace and frees us. This begins when we first hear the gospel. Our heart will be like the 4 types of ground.

I do believe God elects some and removes the stones and thorns and birds to make good ground for the seed to grow.

The Seed is Christ Jesus and the first fruit is a saving faith that allows us to confess from the heart that Jesus redeemed us from our sins upon the cross and was resurrected on the 3rd day. He sends us the Holy Spirit to lead and guide us and enable us to cry abba Father!

Yet through it all we have the will or ablity to reject and choose our own path.

However God's will is stronger than our own and He will convince and draw His chosen elect fully to Himself. He does this by helping us tear down spiritual strongholds and showing us His wisdom and plan for out lives. He does this by chastening us when we sin until we have the fruit of righteousness.

Agree except I see God as chosen all to draw towards him first in nature and moral law. Then as they choose to be in awe of creation this brings them closer and as they choose to hold the right morals that are written on everyone's heart before even hearing the gospel, this brings the even closer as Gods Spirit leads them to Jesus. Then they are put in some situation either by a friend, church, radio, tv, etc to hear the Gods Word which brings them to the feet of Jesus. God tells us we are without excuse even before hearing the Gospel or the Mosiac law. We all know some really good moral people but also be unbelievers.

Keep in mind this person chose to acknowledge the awe in nature, chose to hold good morals, and all these acts deep inside his soul he really is choosing to be in reliance in God as God draws him to Jesus.


Then the creation once heard the gospel is left to choose life or death. God cheering on one side of the soul and Satan telling lies on the other side. Then in the very middle, your free will self-consciousness, self-awareness of this choice to freely choose.


I believe since God chose all John 3:16 and none are without excuse Romans 1, and Jesus draws all to himself John 12:32, then this only means everyone except infants and the mentally handicapped is responsible for answering the calling of God at any stage of Gods calling.


Otherwise, they freely chose to ignore the awe in creation, choose to live a life as morally corrupt, ignore the gospel and remain in their reprobated mind.

 

[PeterJens]

Wow...the "New perspective" is just a mixed bag of folks who used to be reformed going back partially to Roman Catholicism and Orthodox church beliefs with some of their own thoughts mixed in as well.

It also redefines what grace "charis" means to favor instead of free unmerited favor....it says God expects something in return.

Also a handful of other terms are redefined.

Kind of concerning.

*******

What for me is interesting is the arguments reflect the language used here on this thread,
and are not clear cut.

It is why putting labels of ultimate damnation or blessing is not a good way as a christian to
go.

For me discovering the argument, following it and coming to a balanced view is the best one
can hope for. No one individual will be finally "right" as even Paul refined his views over time,
and may have emphasised different things for different contexts, when we only have half the
story.

What for me stood out, was many of the observations chime with things that have spoken
to me, so I just say, amen. It is love and walking in the light is the road to the Kingdom,
the rest will find its proper place if we walk in His ways.

 

[PeterJens]

Methodist believe in imputed righteousness NOT imparted righteousness.

Imparted righteousness is a Catholic belief tied in with justification definition that includes both Faith and works.

You maybe right I was just quoting the wiki entry that came up

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imparted_righteousness

They may have got it wrong

Imparted righteousness, in Methodist theology, is that gracious gift of God given at the moment of the new birth which enables a Christian disciple to strive for holiness and sanctification. John Wesley believed that imparted righteousness worked in tandem with imputed righteousness. Imputed righteousness is the righteousness of Jesus credited to the Christian, enabling the Christian to be justified; imparted righteousness is what God does in Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit after justification, working in the Christian to enable and empower the process of sanctification (and, in Wesleyan thought, Christian perfection).

Not my issue, I am just learning what these terms mean as used.

 

[PeterJens]

That doesn't just apply to porn though does it?

It does not.
I have two daughters, in there late teens and early 20's.

It freaks me out the culture they are in and how soaked in porn it really is.

A son of a friend was on a rape chat thread, talking about their next victim.

People can trip over from this is normal nice people into a very dark place.

A work, I was talking about movies, and one guy mentioned snuff movies.
He and another colleague where exchanging their experiences.
This is films of real torture and murder for entertainment.

People can go over the edge and not see it, and then get engulfed by the
emotional interplay and what is destructive evil.

But you guys think it is all nice and cuddly out there and lives are not falling apart
and Jesus is not the light in a dark world, which in us can be a blinding light.

 

[PeterJens]

Dude, get over yourself. This is not even close to being the truth. If you can not humble yourself to try to figure out what others teach, then just stop it. Your slanderous ways are evil and they are getting old.

No one thinks they will get to heaven because at one time in their life they had faith. THATS TOTAL RUBBISH!!

If you believe you can never lose your salvation, this is what this means.

Some are not very bright about cause and effect, meaning and consequence.
Maybe 1+1 is a little too advanced.

 

[Ariel82]

Here is a sermon from wesley about the imputed righteousness of Christ needed for justification....

The Wesley Center Online: Sermon 20 - The Lord Our Righteousness

But when is it imputed When they believe. In that very hour the righteousness of Christ is theirs. It is imputed to every one that believes, as soon as he believes: Faith and the righteousness of Christ are inseparable. For if he believes according to Scripture, he believes in the righteousness of Christ. There is no true faith, that is, justifying faith, which hath not the righteousness of Christ for its object.

*****But in what sense is this righteousness imputed to believers In this: all believers are forgiven and accepted, not for the sake of anything in them, or of anything that ever was, that is, or ever can be done by them, but wholly and solely for the sake of what Christ hath done and suffered for them. I say again, not for the sake of anything in them, or done by them, of their own righteousness or works: "Not for works of righteousness which we have done, but of his own mercy he saved us." "By grace ye are saved through faith, -- not of works, lest any man should boast;" but wholly and solely for the sake of what Christ hath done and suffered for us. We are "justified freely by his grace, through the redemption that is in Jesus Christ." And this is not only the means of our obtaining the favour of God, but of our continuing therein. It is thus we come to God at first; it is by the same we come unto him ever after. We walk in one and the same new and living way, till our spirit returns to God.

 

[Ariel82]

Agree except I see God as chosen all to draw towards him first in nature and moral law. Then as they choose to be in awe of creation this brings them closer and as they choose to hold the right morals that are written on everyone's heart before even hearing the gospel, this brings the even closer as Gods Spirit leads them to Jesus. Then they are put in some situation either by a friend, church, radio, tv, etc to hear the Gods Word which brings them to the feet of Jesus. God tells us we are without excuse even before hearing the Gospel or the Mosiac law. We all know some really good moral people but also be unbelievers.

Keep in mind this person chose to acknowledge the awe in nature, chose to hold good morals, and all these acts deep inside his soul he really is choosing to be in reliance in God as God draws him to Jesus.


Then the creation once heard the gospel is left to choose life or death. God cheering on one side of the soul and Satan telling lies on the other side. Then in the very middle, your free will self-consciousness, self-awareness of this choice to freely choose.


I believe since God chose all John 3:16 and none are without excuse Romans 1, and Jesus draws all to himself John 12:32, then this only means everyone except infants and the mentally handicapped is responsible for answering the calling of God at any stage of Gods calling.


Otherwise, they freely chose to ignore the awe in creation, choose to live a life as morally corrupt, ignore the gospel and remain in their reprobated mind.

I would add that without God's grace, there would be no light drawing people to Himself.

Also some people chose to walk away but God decides to do something more in their lives to draw them back to Him. We call that grace and chastenment.

 

[Ariel82]

Wesley continues in his sermon to attempt and make peace..,.maybe his words will have more effect...

Is there any need, is there any possibility, of saying more Let us only abide by this declaration, and all the contention about this or that "particular phrase" is torn up by the roots. Keep to this, -- "All who are humbled as repenting criminals at Christ's feet, and rely as devoted pensioners on his merits, are in the way to a blessed immortality;" And what room for dispute Who denies this Do we not all meet on this ground What then shall we wrangle about A man of peace here proposes terms of accommodation to all the contending parties. We desire no better: We accept of the terms: We subscribe to them with heart and hand. Whoever refuses so to do, set a mark upon that man! He is an enemy of peace, and a troubler of Israel, a disturber of the Church of God.

*****

First, I would address myself to you who violently oppose these expressions, and are ready to condemn all that use them as Antinomians. But is not this bending the bow too much the other way Why should you condemn all who do not speak just as you do Why should you quarrel with them, for using the phrases they like, any more than they with you for taking the same liberty Or, if they do quarrel with you upon that account, do not imitate the bigotry which you blame. At least, allow them the liberty which they ought to allow you. And why should you be angry at an expression "O, it has been abused!" And what expression has not However, the abuse may be removed, and, at the same time, the use remain. Above all, be sure to retain the important sense which is couched under that expression: "All the blessings I enjoy, all I hope for in time and in eternity, are given wholly and solely for the sake of what Christ has done and suffered for me."

I would, Secondly, add a few words to you who are fond of these expressions. And permit me to ask, Do not I allow enough What can any reasonable man desire more I allow the whole sense which you contend for; that we have every blessing through the righteousness of God our Saviour. I allow you to use whatever expressions you choose, and that a thousand times over; only guarding them against that dreadful abuse, which you are as deeply concerned to prevent as I am.

 

[Ariel82]

Dude, get over yourself. This is not even close to being the truth. If you can not humble yourself to try to figure out what others teach, then just stop it. Your slanderous ways are evil and they are getting old.

No one thinks they will get to heaven because at one time in their life they had faith. THATS TOTAL RUBBISH!!

There might be some who do but not any in this thread...most make a distinction between genuine Faith and just lip service.

I believe those people are called "Antinomians"

 

[WineRose]

This will so make Blue's day lol...now do you have purple ones for Magenta?

I've only got one...

 

[BillG]

 

[Ariel82]

Woah...bioluminence...pretty awesome kittens, Bill!

 

[PeterJens]

Dude, get over yourself. This is not even close to being the truth. If you can not humble yourself to try to figure out what others teach, then just stop it. Your slanderous ways are evil and they are getting old.

No one thinks they will get to heaven because at one time in their life they had faith. THATS TOTAL RUBBISH!!

Imagine a line of ideas

1. Only those who walk righteously without fault are saved.
2. Only those who have faith in Christ, and desire to walk after Christ but are working with failure
3. Only those who at some point have known Christ and faith
4. Everyone as they will all come to faith at some point

Now I am somewhere between 1 & 2. The walk for me is a reflection of who we are, and abandoning
the walk is loss of the whole relationship. These two groups believe a holy righteous walk is possible.

3 is those who believe in security of salvation, which in its extreme is antinomianism, or on the
other side is desiring a righteous walk but admitting total inability to walk as Christ walked moves
towards option 2.

4 is universalism.

Now those thoroughly in position 3 disown 1 as legalism and 2 as almost the same, but certainly lost.

I experience without a living relationship with Christ none of it really matters, because Gods declared
approach is to judge you on your deeds alone without any atoning sacrifice.

Now it helps people identify where they are and why. This is largely so one does not confuse the
language or sensibilities of others and rather than talking as if ones own perspective is the only one
possible. It is unfortunately arrogant and disrespectful towards other perspectives which many do
hold to for their own reasons. You will discover there is wisdom is many places which are not the
exclusive right of anyone group.

 

[Ariel82]

I don't accept any of your 4 positions PeterJens.

The ones who have a Saving Faith in Christ Jesus and his atoning work on the cross and resurrection and have been born again by His Holy spirit are justified and saved. Then they will be sanctified by the power of God in their lives to spiritual mature in Him and eventually glorified upon His return.

Your overly simplified models can easily misclasify others beliefs. Which explains why you incorrectly label some people Universalist.

 

[PeterJens]

I don't accept any of your 4 positions PeterJens.

Ok. I am just trying to express the sensibilities of various positions and how they overlap.
I think it helps people to understand it is not a clear cut one position or another.

If you have a better way of demonstrating it, feel free, because I always just try and
make a stab at it.

 

[Ariel82]

No thanks.

I would rather state what I believe and let others state their beliefs then try and make up models that don't really fit anyone.

 

[gb9]

Ok. I am just trying to express the sensibilities of various positions and how they overlap.
I think it helps people to understand it is not a clear cut one position or another.

If you have a better way of demonstrating it, feel free, because I always just try and
make a stab at it.

their is one clear cut position- no one is sinless and perfect. not you. not me. no one. clear enough??