Not By Works

[Katy-follower]

Hebrews 10:14: "For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified"

"Being" sanctified, as in an ongoing process, not that we are made instantly sinless.

Glorification is the finale to sanctification, where we are promised a glorified body and will be just like Him (sinless). So only when we receive our glorified body will we be sinless.


Phillipians 3:20-21: "For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself"

Romans 8:29-30: "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified"


Predestined to be conformed to His image. So predestined confirms the future completion.

During the process we are becoming more and more like Christ, but only at the end will we be glorified.

One cannot be sinless without that glorified body

 

[dcontroversal]

Hebrews 10:14: "For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified"

"Being" sanctified, as in an ongoing process, not that we are made instantly sinless.

Glorification is the finale to sanctification, where we are promised a glorified body and will be just like Him (sinless). So only when we receive our glorified body will we be sinless.


Phillipians 3:20-21: "For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself"

Romans 8:29-30: "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified"


Predestined to be conformed to His image. So predestined confirms the future completion.

During the process we are becoming more and more like Christ, but only at the end will we be glorified.

One cannot be sinless without that glorified body

exactly.......

 

[dcontroversal]

And how long have you been studying and what have you been studying?

So far all i have seen is you speaking but not really listening to what others say.

I don't really have an issue with most of your doctrine, but your constant inability to read and actually understand what others are saying does not say to me "this is a mature Christian, you should learn your doctrine from her"

I don't think you even understand the difference between sanctification and justification. You claim that Pual doesn't make a distinction but you would be wrong.

However, I expect you to respond in anger and pride. So then the whole conversation becomes pointless until you calm down again.

No matter....she cannot even get salvation right...if the.root is corrupt the whole tree is corrupt.....without biblical salvation...nothing else matters......one must be born again to even begin to understand the word and apply it biblically

 

[PeterJens]

Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread. And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.
Matt 6:9-13

8 Points
Our Father - relationship,
Hallowed - praise of the Lord
Kingdom come = hope, desire for the future
will - rule, authority let it be done here and now
bread - provide for our needs
forgive - forgive our sins as we forgive others
temptation - help us avoid sin and tempting to sin
deliver - set us free from evil and the evil one

Jesus embeds in the Lords prayer forgiveness and hurt.
Forgiveness not for sin but for those things we are in debt about, as we forgive
those who are in debt to us.

Jesus includes the problem of being tempted which can lead to a fall into sin,
which we should be kept from and the one who would desire we fall.

So I take from this though we can walk without sinning there are still things
we have debt to others for and they are in our debt to.

So I wonder not so much how we can walk righteously, is why people deny such
things are possible and what sin still binds there hearts so.

The confusion is our righteousness never justifies us, it is our relationship and faith
in God that justifies us. The easiest way of describing this is Christs righteousness.

Now the temple and the ark of the covenant, its lid called the mercy seat is sprinkled
with blood from the atoning sacrifice. Even the high priest could only come once a
year to this place.

So the issue is always how do we walk and its basis.
We must walk righteously as lights in a dark place, shinning the love of Christ.
We will always fail in some regard, yet this light is the light of life and we wish to
carry it well, and honour the King who saved us.

Part of this shinning is always loving others and the works that go with this. Amen.

 

[PeterJens]

Sin and righteousness. Are these mutually exclusive and without feeling condemnation
can you talk about it?

One sign how close to Jesus you are, is His ways and principles bring light to your soul.
Do I walk without failing? Not at the moment. But I want to know Gods will and walk
closer to it, and see in others Gods will worked out.

It strikes me some seem opposed to this and to knowing what it means to walk pleasing
to God. Our goal is to see love reign in our hearts, and not be a slave to sin.

Is it wrong to ask such questions, or to aspire to walk like Christ?

 

[PeterJens]

What is a simple deception of believers?

1. They are forgiven and their behaviour is forgiven without repentance,
their belief in Jesus is taken alone as enough.
2. They have no ability to follow Jesus so they do not need to
3. Behaviour good or bad is not relevant, they are just accepted
4. Faith could go, God will still take them to heaven

We are cleansed through the atoning sacrifice of Christ but only because we repent and have
faith in Jesus and the cross for the forgiveness of sins.

Our walk is to obey Christ, demonstrating our commitment and growth in Christ.
It does not earn our salvation, but it shows our repentance was real and we know the King.

As we grow we appreciate the difference between sin and righteousness and it is this
knowledge that empowers us. We take delight in seeing the wisdom of God expressed
in the law and in His love, and seeing how the two work together.

In Christ and walking in the Spirit there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ
Jesus.

Pride is never part of this walk, but realising the wonder and glory of our King and His
road of redemption. We are always unworthy servants, who the King has bestowed
His grace upon, yet we see His wonder at work in us and rejoice in this. Amen

 

[PeterJens]

imputed righteousness - a term miss-understood by many

Some believe God is blinded to the sin of believers by imputed righteousness of Christ.
I think this blindness is the deception people are under.

Because of faith in Christ God does not count these sins against, knowing in time we
will repent and resolve the issues. This is the mercy of God, empowered by Christ blood shed
on the cross. The whole basis of forgiveness is the future resolution through repentance.

The church has always dealt with sin over time. Identification of sinful behaviour, confrontation,
and finally rejection if not resolved.

If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
Matt 18:15-17

3 steps -
Personal confrontation
Witnessed confrontation
Confront in the church
Reject if they do not resolve it.

Sin in an obvious needs to be taken seriously.
This is why I wonder at what the brothers are saying is insurmountable sin.
The examples given to date, are neither a problem or insurmountable.

Often people spend too much time condemning themselves rather than positively
praising God and making the most of loving people wherever they find opportunity.

 

[Ariel82]

Proverbs 10:19New American Standard Bible (NASB)

19 When there are many words, transgression is unavoidable,
But he who restrains his lips is wise.

 

[Ariel82]

PeterJens, your endless strawmen have already been addressed.

Imputed righteousness does not make God blind but it does wash us clean of our sins. We are forgiven because of God's mercy and not because of anything that we do.

God chastens us and reveals if any sin we have commited needs to be further action beyond laying it at the cross.

Maybe one day he will show you that creating strawmen and enticing your brothers and sisters to anger because of your false representations is a sin.

Again I say no one is against walking righteously. Most understand God's chastenment. This thread is about how people are NOT saved by works but by Faith in JESUS. Yet you just want to push your agenda, ignoring what anyone else says.

Personally I am not anger. Just sad that you still have not learned how to listen but just like to speak because you have an audience.

 

[PeterJens]

Maybe one day he will show you that creating strawmen and enticing your brothers and sisters to anger because of your false representations is a sin.

Ariel - Listen to your words.

I am sinful speaking the truth because it might anger someone.

This is your ethical morality not Gods. You seek empathy and non-confrontation, at any
price. Now hatred, bitterness towards me is not a problem, but if I share something that
people respond in anger to, I am a sinner.

Tell me how I am wrong? From scripture not your emotional reference points.

And walking righteously? The guys you like to call friends are happy to trample on anyone
who talks about righteousness, and defining sin, or talking about the beauty of the law.

They hate the law, because it brings emotional condemnation to them.
You need to ask why they hate it so deeply?

I have had people say they wonder how anyone could take delight in the sermon on the mount.
This speaks of their rebellion and their own sin that dwells in their heart.

Jesus's words are eternal and should dwell in our minds, thoughts and lives day in, day out.
Do you think people to whom these words are like poison know what walking in Christ is?

 

[PeterJens]

Yet you just want to push your agenda, ignoring what anyone else says.

Thank you for your support.
You love to take Gods position, and tell others what they are doing is wrong.

Please show me from scripture your points.
I wonder why you feel such a contribution towards me is helpful.
Somehow you believe those who wish to destroy the church, call christians their
enemies, label me as satanic, you talk to as if this is all neutral.

If you were judged by who your call friends you would be in a bad place.

 

[mailmandan]

Hebrews 10:14: "For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified"

"Being" sanctified, as in an ongoing process, not that we are made instantly sinless.

Glorification is the finale to sanctification, where we are promised a glorified body and will be just like Him (sinless). So only when we receive our glorified body will we be sinless.


Phillipians 3:20-21: "For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself"

Romans 8:29-30: "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified"


Predestined to be conformed to His image. So predestined confirms the future completion.

During the process we are becoming more and more like Christ, but only at the end will we be glorified.

One cannot be sinless without that glorified body

Amen! Great post which deserves a rep!

 

[PeterJens]

One cannot be sinless without that glorified body

I hear this all the time, yet where is the scripture for this?

We will never know how close we come to walking like Christ, but our heart is to walk
like Him.

 

[garee]

We are cleansed through the atoning sacrifice of Christ but only because we repent and have faith in Jesus and the cross for the forgiveness of sins.

It would seem you are not "mixing faith" as a work of God(not of or own selves) in what you do hear or see coming from the scriptures but rather walk by sight looking at works you perform as evidence you have the Holy Spirit. We walk by faith having not received the promise that we will receive our new incorruptible bodies. All of the saints died having not received the promise.

We are not the cause as you offered (only because we repent) it’s not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,But is rather because he repented by having mercy towards us. His mercy triumphs over judgment.

What you offered would appear to be backward or upside down like the one group in Hebrews 6, laying again and again the foundation of repentance from dead works, crucifying Christ over and over when you repent. He must do the first work of repenting or there is no mercy

One work of His faith was enough .Its the better thing that accompanies salvation called redemption.

Christ was punished by God for our sin (eternal damnation) and not just long enough for a person sins again. Christ was under the wrath of God for our sin. He was wounded for the “second death”, the most terrible punishment imaginable.The evidence of that is He threw himself to the ground with loud cries while his sweat (to show he was doing the spiritual work of suffering) as if it was drops of blood.(can’t see the spiritual work of pouring out His Spirit)

The chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his punishment we are healed. It punishment was not upon us until we repented again and again every time a person violates His law.

 

[PeterJens]

What you offered would appear to be backward or upside down like the one group in Hebrews 6, laying again and again the foundation of repentance from dead works, crucifying Christ over and over when you repent. He must do the first work of repenting or there is no mercy

One work of His faith was enough .Its the better thing that accompanies salvation called redemption.

What you are claiming is repentance is not necessary.

In your version it appears people do not need to recognise their sinfulness or failure
or even desire righteousness, they just need to have faith in Christ.

But for what? They have no conviction or anything that needs resolving, so why even
believe Christ has anything to offer?

It makes sense if you believe the gospel is not about conquering sin but just recognising
Christ. I can see how you could believe this, because it fits with a theology of inclusion
with nothing the believer can ever do, just submission in praise to Christ.

But this is not the gospel as preached.

Jonah going to Nineveh is Christ example of His mission. Judgement is coming on Israel,
unless it repents it will be destroyed. This happened in 70AD.

Jonah was simple. Repent and confess your sins and you will be saved from judgement.

What you appear to be telling me is not the faith of Jesus or the apostles but a faith
without righteousness or light, just acknowledgement.

Jesus's instructions on the sermon on the mount are not for believers just for jews to
show themselves they need Jesus.

I do understand why you say this, I just do not agree. God bless you.

 

[gb9]

What you are claiming is repentance is not necessary.

In your version it appears people do not need to recognise their sinfulness or failure
or even desire righteousness, they just need to have faith in Christ.

But for what? They have no conviction or anything that needs resolving, so why even
believe Christ has anything to offer?

It makes sense if you believe the gospel is not about conquering sin but just recognising
Christ. I can see how you could believe this, because it fits with a theology of inclusion
with nothing the believer can ever do, just submission in praise to Christ.

But this is not the gospel as preached.

Jonah going to Nineveh is Christ example of His mission. Judgement is coming on Israel,
unless it repents it will be destroyed. This happened in 70AD.

Jonah was simple. Repent and confess your sins and you will be saved from judgement.

What you appear to be telling me is not the faith of Jesus or the apostles but a faith
without righteousness or light, just acknowledgement.

Jesus's instructions on the sermon on the mount are not for believers just for jews to
show themselves they need Jesus.

I do understand why you say this, I just do not agree. God bless you.

sirs, what must I do to be saved? - the Philippian jailer to Paul and Silas. believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved- their answer.

as usual, truth proves you wrong. maybe one day you will choose truth, and stop resisting it.

 

[PennEd]

Wrote this on the thread, but it may fit here as well....

The Fruits of the Holy Spirit produce Good works. NOT the other way around.

You Will Know Them by Their Fruits

15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

It is not the works that produces fruit, but the fruit that produces good works.
So I think this is what so many get wrong, and backwards.

So what are these fruits?
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
These fruits WILL produce good works.So we all need to examine ourselves, that we are exhibiting these fruits, NOT THE WORKS WE DO.

If you are not exhibiting THAT Spirit-filled list, you are likely exhibiting THIS fleshly list of bad fruit:
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,[c]fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders,[d] drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Have a blessed weekend! Love you all.

 

[garee]

What you are claiming is repentance is not necessary.

I see that a little differently

Strong’s lexicon 05162 nacham {naw-kham'}
a primitive root; TWOT - 1344; v
AV - comfort 57, repent 41, comforter 9, ease 1; 108
1) to be sorry, console oneself, repent, regret, comfort, be comforted 1a) (Niphal) 1a1) to be sorry, be moved to pity, have compassion 1a2) to be sorry, rue, suffer grief, repent 1a3) to comfort oneself, be comforted 1a4) to comfort oneself, ease oneself 1b) (Piel) to comfort, console 1c) (Pual) to be comforted, be consoled 1d) (Hithpael) 1d1) to be sorry, have compassion 1d2) to rue, repent of 1d3) to comfort oneself, be comforted 1d4) to ease oneself

No man of his own volition can(imposible) seek after God not seen, therefore he cannot understand him not seen. We walk by His work of faith that works in us to both will and perform His good purposes. He must do the first works

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.Rom 3:10

To repent is to comfort. His perfect law of faith (the bible) commands us to repent, that law of faith converts our soul giving us His spiritul understanding (not seen)

Psalms 19:7 "The law of the LORD" is perfect, converting the soul: "the testimony of the LORD" is sure, making wise the simple.....(.Us)

In your version it appears people do not need to recognise their sinfulness or failure
or even desire righteousness, they just need to have faith in Christ.

If God does not first turn any man towards him not seen, no man can repent as in all cases he must do the "first works". We recognize our sinfulness as he turns us not before, then we could comofrt ourselves knowing he has forgiven the eternal debt of our sin

I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the LORD my God.Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.Ephraim my dear son? is he a pleasant child? for since I spake against him, I do earnestly remember him still: therefore my bowels are troubled for him; I will surely have mercy upon him, saith the LORD. Jer 31:18

 

[Ariel82]

Hebrews 10:14: "For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified"

"Being" sanctified, as in an ongoing process, not that we are made instantly sinless.

Glorification is the finale to sanctification, where we are promised a glorified body and will be just like Him (sinless). So only when we receive our glorified body will we be sinless.


Phillipians 3:20-21: "For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself"

Romans 8:29-30: "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified"


Predestined to be conformed to His image. So predestined confirms the future completion.

During the process we are becoming more and more like Christ, but only at the end will we be glorified.

One cannot be sinless without that glorified body

Amen we are being confirmed to Christ image and one day we will know HIM as He Knows us and we see Him face to face.

We are not instantaneous made sinless, but God will help us overcome sin and teach us His ways.

We should always realize how much more God still has to teach us and be humble and thankful for His mercy and grace.

 

[Ariel82]

I see that a little differently

Strong’s lexicon 05162 nacham {naw-kham'}
a primitive root; TWOT - 1344; v
AV - comfort 57, repent 41, comforter 9, ease 1; 108
1) to be sorry, console oneself, repent, regret, comfort, be comforted 1a) (Niphal) 1a1) to be sorry, be moved to pity, have compassion 1a2) to be sorry, rue, suffer grief, repent 1a3) to comfort oneself, be comforted 1a4) to comfort oneself, ease oneself 1b) (Piel) to comfort, console 1c) (Pual) to be comforted, be consoled 1d) (Hithpael) 1d1) to be sorry, have compassion 1d2) to rue, repent of 1d3) to comfort oneself, be comforted 1d4) to ease oneself

No man of his own volition can(imposible) seek after God not seen, therefore he cannot understand him not seen. We walk by His work of faith that works in us to both will and perform His good purposes. He must do the first works

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.Rom 3:10

To repent is to comfort. His perfect law of faith (the bible) commands us to repent, that law of faith converts our soul giving us His spiritul understanding (not seen)

Psalms 19:7 "The law of the LORD" is perfect, converting the soul: "the testimony of the LORD" is sure, making wise the simple.....(.Us)


If God does not first turn any man towards him not seen, no man can repent as in all cases he must do the "first works". We recognize our sinfulness as he turns us not before, then we could comofrt ourselves knowing he has forgiven the eternal debt of our sin

I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the LORD my God.Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.Ephraim my dear son? is he a pleasant child? for since I spake against him, I do earnestly remember him still: therefore my bowels are troubled for him; I will surely have mercy upon him, saith the LORD. Jer 31:18

So you believe that God reaches out to sinners first and places in them a desire to turn from darkness to light?