Not By Works

FranC · May 22, 2017

Amen! How many people on CC claim to be sinless, without fault or defect, flawless 100% of the time just like God the Father? Are we actually perfect "in that sense?" NO. Matthew 5:48 - Be Perfect - AT Robertson points out - Perfect (teleioi). The word comes from telo, end, goal, limit. The goal set before us, the absolute standard of our Heavenly Father. The word is used also for relative perfection as of adults compared with children.

So absolute perfection, sinless, without fault or defect for us will not become a reality until we are present with the Lord,ult, which is the end or aim to which the child points. Thus it denotes those who have attained the full development of inna but that is the goal to strive for. Yet teleioi is also used to refer to the maturity of an adte powers, in contrast to those who are still in the undeveloped state (children).

James 1:4 says - But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing.

James 3:2 says - For we all stumble in many things. If anyone does not stumble in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body.

James 2:22 says - Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? The NASB says "was perfected," the ESV says "faith was completed by his works."

I've seen people abuse and misuse the words of Jesus "go and sin no more" in John 8:11 to teach sinless perfection. Jesus was telling the woman to go and leave her life of sin, namely, she had been practicing adultery. Also, Jesus cannot compromise his perfect, holy standard, so of course He is not going to say, "go and just sin a little bit."Those who believe they live a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life 100% of the time (exactly as Jesus lived) are suffering from a terminal case of self righteousness (1 John 1:8-10).

You said that Jesus cannot compromise His perfect, holy standard.

But it sounds so much like you don't encourage those who are saying that they're TRYING to GO AND SIN NO MORE.

So, what you're saying is that to the adulturous woman, Jesus meant to go and not be a prostitute anymore,
but it was OK to do OTHER SINS?

Are all sins the same or not???

See MMD, I know what you mean, but to Others is sounds very cloudy.

Jesus said LET YOUR YES BE YES, AND YOUR NO BE NO.

HE was CLEAR in what He preached.

Why can we not be clear??

FranC · May 22, 2017

limey410 said:

Limey,
some here have NOT surrendered yet.
And I don't mean PeterJens...

When you REALLY surrender, you won't be afraid of the truth anymore.

Pontius Pilot asked Jesus "what IS the truth?"

PP was staring truth in the face.
Have you stared truth in the face?
What does He tell you?
Does He tell you to fight those who are trying to live holy lives by telling them that it's impossible to sin?
Does that encourage sinning or not?

PeterJens · May 22, 2017

mailmandan said:

Herein is the lie. Jesus is saying be perfect in loving your enemy as God the Father is perfect
in loving your enemy.

If you are looking for excuses to rubbish Jesus's words or intent, your heart will always find it.
This is the judge of the character within you and who you truly love and care for.

There are 3 concepts people will missuse as excuses of walking righteously or acceptably before
the Lord

1. Perfect like the father
2. Anything not of faith is sin
3. And good thing you know you should do and do not do it you sin

They add to this thinking about anything other than God is sin, concentrating on anything other
than God.

Sins are linked to - anger, fear, insecurity, anything to do with self

If you want a list to total self condemnation, this is it. If God was like this, walking in a pleasing
way before the Lord would be impossible.

But this is why He gave the law to give structure to these concepts, to exercise real relationship
love.

Like all young children we get worried and take everything too far, because love is not what we
experience. But this is what we should be doing and having.

So we need to be specific about sin, and about what leads to sin.
We need to know what friendship of our brothers and sisters on an emotional, loving level means
and what is going too far and what is ok. Talking about sin is only the beginning, learning to like
love and appreciate one another is a true walk of maturity.

Ariel82 · May 22, 2017

FranC said:

And how long have you been studying and what have you been studying?

So far all i have seen is you speaking but not really listening to what others say.

I don't really have an issue with most of your doctrine, but your constant inability to read and actually understand what others are saying does not say to me "this is a mature Christian, you should learn your doctrine from her"

I don't think you even understand the difference between sanctification and justification. You claim that Pual doesn't make a distinction but you would be wrong.

However, I expect you to respond in anger and pride. So then the whole conversation becomes pointless until you calm down again.

FranC · May 22, 2017

limey410 said:

You say very nice things, so I'm a bit confused.

§These are your first two paragraphs:

Nobody will go to Hell or Heaven because of their sin. They will go to Hell or Heaven based on whether they know the Living God or not.

It IS about belief, God has testified over and over in scripture that he regards a persons heart/faith/belief over their action and or deeds.

You're right in your first paragraph. But those who DO know God will do as He commanded.
John 13:35
John 15:14

For instance He DEMANDS that we change our attitude. Mathew 5:3-10.

You say that God testified over and over that he regards a person's heart and this is true.
However, you could please post some scripture, from Jesus own words, that show that our actions and deeds are not important, in the sense that you said He regards these over the heart. IOW, I could believe in my heart, but if I don't have actions or deeds, it seems to be OK?

Thanks.

Ariel82 · May 22, 2017

Lol. Jesus preached in parables.

Matthew 13

10And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. 12For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. 13Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

14And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

15For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

16But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. 17For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

Why wonder why the world still does not understand God's lessons? Only by the illumination of the Holy Spirit is,such wisdom imparted to the soul.

FranC · May 22, 2017

eternally-gratefull said:

No EG
Sometimes a Christian Brother can cause one to stumble.
Check out these verses:

Romans 15:12-13
1 Corinthians 8:13

('please don't tell me it's talking about eating meat)

I see NNM trying so hard to follow God's word, and so many here discouraging him.
This is being a stumbling block to a fellow Christian.

gb9 · May 22, 2017

PeterJens said:

Herein is the lie. Jesus is saying be perfect in loving your enemy as God the Father is perfect
in loving your enemy.

If you are looking for excuses to rubbish Jesus's words or intent, your heart will always find it.
This is the judge of the character within you and who you truly love and care for.

There are 3 concepts people will missuse as excuses of walking righteously or acceptably before
the Lord

1. Perfect like the father
2. Anything not of faith is sin
3. And good thing you know you should do and do not do it you sin

They add to this thinking about anything other than God is sin, concentrating on anything other
than God.

Sins are linked to - anger, fear, insecurity, anything to do with self

If you want a list to total self condemnation, this is it. If God was like this, walking in a pleasing
way before the Lord would be impossible.

But this is why He gave the law to give structure to these concepts, to exercise real relationship
love.

Like all young children we get worried and take everything too far, because love is not what we
experience. But this is what we should be doing and having.

So we need to be specific about sin, and about what leads to sin.
We need to know what friendship of our brothers and sisters on an emotional, loving level means
and what is going too far and what is ok. Talking about sin is only the beginning, learning to like
love and appreciate one another is a true walk of maturity.

the lie is that a person can be perfect and sinless in the flesh. that is a LIE. you do NOT have to be perfect and sinless to be saved. no one is.

anyone who says or refuses to admit that they are not perfect are liars. and liars are sinners.

we are saved by grace through faith for good works. not by being sinless. jump on the truth train.

FranC · May 22, 2017

Ariel82 said:

No Ariel.
Jesus spoke in parables for a very specific reason.

Could you tell us what it is after 7 years of studying?

No cheating. Don't look it up...

FranC · May 22, 2017

gb9 said:

English does seem to be a problem on this thread.

Let's see:

If I CAN BE POSITIONALLY SANCTIFIED in Christ...

WHY can I not be POSITIONALLY PERFECT in Christ...

Does this POSITIONALLY idea work only for some concepts and not Others?

I hate to start a brand new concept some here never bring up,

but, actually, in God's eyes we ARE perfect!

Could I have an amen on this?
Could I have some scripture on this since everyone here is so knowledgeable?

Ariel82 · May 22, 2017

No Peterjens, you build another straw man because you refuse to accept the BIBLE'S definition of sin:

You want it to mean a set of laws you can check off as having not broken, but living righteously is MORE than that.

IT is as you mentioned learning to love others and to do the Good God means for you to do.

If you dont, it's a sin and needs to be taken to God in prayer.

Not used to make someone feel condemned but as a learning lesson to become the people God means for us to be.

.God chastens all His kids.

Ariel82 · May 22, 2017

The first is washed clean....like the bath a baby gets after being born again.

The second is like asking the baby to become a mature/perfect man and walk minutes after being born...just not the way God made humans.

Ariel82 · May 22, 2017

FranC said:

Why don't you tell us oh wise one?

Ariel82 · May 22, 2017

I am in Christ and that is enough.
If I must boast let me boast of the Lord and what He has done! Praise and glory be to God, always.

1Corinthians1
18For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written,

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.”

20Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preachb to save those who believe. 22For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards,c not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. 27But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29so that no human beingd might boast in the presence of God. 30And because of hime you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

NoNameMcgee · May 22, 2017

FranC said:

1 John 2:10

“He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.”

1 John 2:11

“But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.”

He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

mailmandan · May 22, 2017

FranC said:

It sounds to me like that's just what you want to hear. Maybe you missed the part where I said - "So absolute perfection, sinless, without fault or defect for us will not become a reality until we are present with the Lord, but that is the goal to strive for."

That's not what I said either. Straw man argument. Do you believe that Jesus was demanding sinless perfection from that moment on for this woman or else?

According to Roman Catholicism, a venial sin is a lesser sin that does not result in a complete separation from God and eternal damnation in Hell as an unrepented mortal sin would. Is that where you are going with this?

Why is it that I'm primarily hearing from you that I am not clear? What was I unclear about? Should I have said that "go and sin no more" means live a sinless, perfect life from that moment on or else?

NoNameMcgee · May 22, 2017

NoNameMcgee said:

John 15

15 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
(Matthew 7:18

“A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.” )
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Ariel82 · May 22, 2017

NoNameMcgee said:

No...when folks talk about "perfect" they typically mean this verse....

****

Ephesians 4:13 ►
New International Version
until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

New Living Translation
This will continue until we all come to such unity in our faith and knowledge of God's Son that we will be mature in the Lord, measuring up to the full and complete standard of Christ.

English Standard Version
until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ,

Berean Study Bible
until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God, as we mature to the full measure of the stature of Christ.

Berean Literal Bible
until we all may attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a complete man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ,

New American Standard Bible
until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

King James Bible
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

PeterJens · May 22, 2017

gb9 said:

But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.”
2 Cor 12:9

A perfect score, a perfect drive is always subjective on the measure you are using
and who is measuring. Perfect is just passing the score sheet.

Sinless is not used in scripture, because righteousness is without sin.
And we are in Christ, righteous, holy and redeemed.

It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.
1 Cor 1:30

Because of Christ and being washed in the blood, walking in obedience we are
righteous, holy and redeemed.

God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
2 Cor 5:21

We are the righteousness of God.

Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common?
2 Cor 6:14

Paul is saying the righteous should not be linked to wickedness.
If we were not righteous, then this sentence would not make sense at all.

The problem is simple. How does sin defile us?

1. We commit sin
2. We identify sin comes from our desires
3. We admit these desires are ok and part of us

If one does not deal with the heart and the core of these desires, one can
never truly feel one is righteous, cleansed, whole.

So in truth people are saying they are non-believers that Christ can cleanse them
or that they have truly repented of their sins and desires that drive them.

This is also why believing emotions are evil causes so much confusion.
Accepting how we respond to stimuli around us is an important step to understanding
how we then appropriately respond with love in our hearts and the cross in our minds.

NoNameMcgee · May 22, 2017

blue_ladybug said:

we are to not be of the fallen world...

John 17King James Version (KJV)

17 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

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