Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)
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Where did Jesus use straw man arguments in parables? A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while refuting an argument that was not advanced by that opponent. One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man".
The typical straw man argument creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition through the covert replacement of it with a different proposition (stand up a straw man) and the subsequent refutation of that false argument (knock down a straw man) instead of the opponent's proposition
The typical straw man argument creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition through the covert replacement of it with a different proposition (stand up a straw man) and the subsequent refutation of that false argument (knock down a straw man) instead of the opponent's proposition
Sagart,
Just to make things simple.
I DO hope Bill is reading along --- I think he will be.
EITHER translation of John 3:36 will mean the same thing, here's why...
BELIEVE and OBEY is exactly the same meaning!!
This is what I've been trying to get our counterparts to explain and which they have NOT because it would be to their detriment.
BELIEVE, as the Greeks understood it when the N.T. was written meant:
TO UNDERSTAND
TO ACCEPT
TO FOLLOW
TO LEARN FROM
TO HAVE FAITH IN
TO TRUST
So, If we believe someone, or we obey them, it's the same.
IF we BELIEVE someone we ALSO OBEY them, so either translation of John 3:36 means the same.
No problem there. Either translation is acceptable and represents the sentiment of John the Apostle. HE KNEW what BELIEVE means, and so did the translators of the New Testament who understood Greek very well.
Just to make things simple.
I DO hope Bill is reading along --- I think he will be.
EITHER translation of John 3:36 will mean the same thing, here's why...
BELIEVE and OBEY is exactly the same meaning!!
This is what I've been trying to get our counterparts to explain and which they have NOT because it would be to their detriment.
BELIEVE, as the Greeks understood it when the N.T. was written meant:
TO UNDERSTAND
TO ACCEPT
TO FOLLOW
TO LEARN FROM
TO HAVE FAITH IN
TO TRUST
So, If we believe someone, or we obey them, it's the same.
IF we BELIEVE someone we ALSO OBEY them, so either translation of John 3:36 means the same.
No problem there. Either translation is acceptable and represents the sentiment of John the Apostle. HE KNEW what BELIEVE means, and so did the translators of the New Testament who understood Greek very well.
I look at straw men differently. A straw man is merely an example of a subject, whether
related to people or not. It helps clarify an idea by way of example. It is a powerful
tool, which Jesus used all the time in parables.
It can be used both positively and negatively, as it is merely a device.
Faith is like riding a bicycle. It takes awareness, skill movement and direction.
If you stand still you fall off, if you navigate the terrain incorrectly you fall off.
The objective is to stay moving forward and upright.
Falling off is not a problem, if you pick yourself up, and carry on.
Now there is no compulsion to carry on cycling or moving forward. It is the
desire in the rider that gives them the energy and direction.
And looking at the empty churches and lack of commitment to faith in any form,
the majority now are not interested in carrying on in Christ.
So being a follower and walking in faith, is like riding the bike of faith and righteousness.
What I love about some, is even when they are defeated through scripture any
means to derive antagonism or dispute is raised rather than addressing the real
issues.
You know why I know Jesus supports what I am saying? Because he gave parables
of those who answered His call yet get thrown into hell.
So the argument is always, how much were they believers, which is actually admitting
defeat.
All we know is we walk after Jesus and He is faithful to those who believe in Him, Amen
What this fascination leads me to believe is those who feel they can never fall away,
are not sure they have actually found Christ to start with, which is their real problem.
But the cross is answer enough for their hearts. All they need to do is open up, repent
and let Christ heal them, Amen.
related to people or not. It helps clarify an idea by way of example. It is a powerful
tool, which Jesus used all the time in parables.
It can be used both positively and negatively, as it is merely a device.
Faith is like riding a bicycle. It takes awareness, skill movement and direction.
If you stand still you fall off, if you navigate the terrain incorrectly you fall off.
The objective is to stay moving forward and upright.
Falling off is not a problem, if you pick yourself up, and carry on.
Now there is no compulsion to carry on cycling or moving forward. It is the
desire in the rider that gives them the energy and direction.
And looking at the empty churches and lack of commitment to faith in any form,
the majority now are not interested in carrying on in Christ.
So being a follower and walking in faith, is like riding the bike of faith and righteousness.
What I love about some, is even when they are defeated through scripture any
means to derive antagonism or dispute is raised rather than addressing the real
issues.
You know why I know Jesus supports what I am saying? Because he gave parables
of those who answered His call yet get thrown into hell.
So the argument is always, how much were they believers, which is actually admitting
defeat.
All we know is we walk after Jesus and He is faithful to those who believe in Him, Amen
What this fascination leads me to believe is those who feel they can never fall away,
are not sure they have actually found Christ to start with, which is their real problem.
But the cross is answer enough for their hearts. All they need to do is open up, repent
and let Christ heal them, Amen.
Why do you ALWAYS bring up Roman Catholics??
Are you one??
You should learn to love your brethren.
JESUS DEMANDED THIS OF YOU.
See. Those who believe is OSAS are believing in a washed down theology.
You feel you could criticize your own brothers in Christ because you feel you could do whatever you want to do and still be saved.
This is NOT what Jesus taught.
Check out Mathew 5:43-48
Do you read the bible, or do you read some books your church writes?
Are you one??
You should learn to love your brethren.
JESUS DEMANDED THIS OF YOU.
See. Those who believe is OSAS are believing in a washed down theology.
You feel you could criticize your own brothers in Christ because you feel you could do whatever you want to do and still be saved.
This is NOT what Jesus taught.
Check out Mathew 5:43-48
Do you read the bible, or do you read some books your church writes?
Hey, MMD
I've explained many times why there's a problem with the explanation (using only the bible) of J and S.
Now, You say above that we HAVE BEEN SANCTIFIED.
THEN, you say that we ARE BEING SANCTIFIED.
Well, WHICH IS IT???
And why the discrepancy?
God is not the author of confusion.
Please exlain this...
Thanks.
(were we sanctified, OR are we BEING sanctified)
P.S. If you're going to bring up the modern rubbish of something or other about POSTION,
please post some verses regarding this --- where "position" is being spoken of.
Thanks.
I've explained many times why there's a problem with the explanation (using only the bible) of J and S.
Now, You say above that we HAVE BEEN SANCTIFIED.
THEN, you say that we ARE BEING SANCTIFIED.
Well, WHICH IS IT???
And why the discrepancy?
God is not the author of confusion.
Please exlain this...
Thanks.
(were we sanctified, OR are we BEING sanctified)
P.S. If you're going to bring up the modern rubbish of something or other about POSTION,
please post some verses regarding this --- where "position" is being spoken of.
Thanks.
See post #533. We will not reach entire sanctification until we receive our glorified bodies.
Show me this person in Scripture and show me the words "lost salvation" in Scripture.
Revelation 3:5 - "He who overcomes . . . I will never blot out his name from the book of life." The "overcomer" mentioned in this letter to Sardis is the Christian. Compare this with 1 John 5:4: "Everyone who is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.
*All genuine believers are "overcomers!" Praise God!
Some people see in Revelation 3:5 the picture of God’s pen poised, ready to strike out the name of any Christian who sins. They read into it like this: "If you mess up and don’t win the victory, then you’re going to lose your salvation! In fact, I will erase your name from the Book of Life."
*But that is NOT what the verse says. Jesus is giving a promise here, not a warning.
Again, genuine faith continues and is not some shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away. Do those who are born of God practice sin or righteousness? 1 John 3:9-10. Nobody is saying that genuine born again Christians run around living like the devil, but will be saved anyway.
Show me this person in Scripture and show me the words "lost salvation" in Scripture.
Revelation 3:5 - "He who overcomes . . . I will never blot out his name from the book of life." The "overcomer" mentioned in this letter to Sardis is the Christian. Compare this with 1 John 5:4: "Everyone who is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.
*All genuine believers are "overcomers!" Praise God!
Some people see in Revelation 3:5 the picture of God’s pen poised, ready to strike out the name of any Christian who sins. They read into it like this: "If you mess up and don’t win the victory, then you’re going to lose your salvation! In fact, I will erase your name from the Book of Life."
*But that is NOT what the verse says. Jesus is giving a promise here, not a warning.
Again, genuine faith continues and is not some shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away. Do those who are born of God practice sin or righteousness? 1 John 3:9-10. Nobody is saying that genuine born again Christians run around living like the devil, but will be saved anyway.
"you can never lose your salvation".
Thanks.
Because much false theology is traced to them.
Absolutely not. I'm a born again Christian.
I do love my brethren.
Roman Catholics, Mormons, Campbellites and many other works-salvationists would agree with you.
Who said that Roman Catholics are my brothers in Christ? When did I say I want to do whatever I want to do/sin all I want etc.. and still be saved? Another straw man argument. Is that descriptive of someone who is born of God? 1 John 3:7-10. I criticize false doctrine, not my genuine brothers in Christ.
Jesus taught much about love, but He did not teach we should embrace the false teachings of false religions.
The Bible. You should ask Roman Catholics that question.
Absolutely not. I'm a born again Christian.
I do love my brethren.
Roman Catholics, Mormons, Campbellites and many other works-salvationists would agree with you.
Who said that Roman Catholics are my brothers in Christ? When did I say I want to do whatever I want to do/sin all I want etc.. and still be saved? Another straw man argument. Is that descriptive of someone who is born of God? 1 John 3:7-10. I criticize false doctrine, not my genuine brothers in Christ.
Jesus taught much about love, but He did not teach we should embrace the false teachings of false religions.
The Bible. You should ask Roman Catholics that question.
My dear Young man,
THEY have the truth more than you do.
It's a pity you don't know this because of your hatred for the Catholic church.
You see, it's not your doctrine that will save you, but YOUR RELATONSHIP with the Lord.
And if you think Jesus was just issuing out promises and being all loving, then you should also understand He could become very angry and also very said. (the moneychangers and the crying over Jerusalem).
Jesus DEMANDS from us certain behavior and certain things we are to do.
I find you to be a nice individual, what I oppose is the wrong teaching that goes on in these threads.
Did Jesus WARN us because He wanted to be nice,
Or because He wanted to keep us out of the pit?
A decision must be made. I just hope those reading along understand this difference.
THEY have the truth more than you do.
It's a pity you don't know this because of your hatred for the Catholic church.
You see, it's not your doctrine that will save you, but YOUR RELATONSHIP with the Lord.
And if you think Jesus was just issuing out promises and being all loving, then you should also understand He could become very angry and also very said. (the moneychangers and the crying over Jerusalem).
Jesus DEMANDS from us certain behavior and certain things we are to do.
I find you to be a nice individual, what I oppose is the wrong teaching that goes on in these threads.
Did Jesus WARN us because He wanted to be nice,
Or because He wanted to keep us out of the pit?
A decision must be made. I just hope those reading along understand this difference.
None of that says people lose their standing with Christ and are kicked out of Christ. You added all your own views into the scripture and called it "eternal life".
Jesus said that He has given us His peace. That is a promise. If I don't believe that and worry about something and have no peace in that area even though "the promise" is there for me in Christ. If I die tonight without experiencing the promise of the peace of Christ - do I go to hell now in your religion?
What is the will of the Father?
John 6:40 (NASB)
[SUP]40 [/SUP] "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
It is God in us that gives us the will and the ability to do His will.
Philippians 2:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
The Will of the Father is to believe on Jesus.
1 John 3:23 (NASB)
[SUP]23[/SUP] This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.
Thats my understanding of what faith is as you say above.
The NKJV study notes explains it as follow.
refers to confidence that something is real,
with a strong implication that action will ensue from this belief.
in the NT it almost always refers to faith in God or Christ.
Such faith entails active belief, entrusting oneself completely to God.
The NKJV study notes explains it as follow.
refers to confidence that something is real,
with a strong implication that action will ensue from this belief.
in the NT it almost always refers to faith in God or Christ.
Such faith entails active belief, entrusting oneself completely to God.
Is the Bible insufficient for you? Are you sure that you are no longer Roman Catholic, because you sure sound like one. Maybe you will look to "tradition" or "non-canonical books" or a "catechism" for answers.
It's both, as I already shared in post #533.
You should ask yourself that question.
The believer's position in Christ is not modern rubbish and I already explained this to you, but as usual, the truth just went right over your head.
It's both, as I already shared in post #533.
You should ask yourself that question.
The believer's position in Christ is not modern rubbish and I already explained this to you, but as usual, the truth just went right over your head.
This is what believers in the grace of our Lord Jesus have to say about "sanctification"..the word itself means = "to be set apart"
We are perfectly sanctified in Christ now....very true....we as an identity the new creation in Christ will never be more holy then we are now.
However there is a "sanctifying" of our behavior that is on-going that reflects our true nature in Christ...so in essence...we are becoming outwardly who we really are in our inner man which is in Christ.
This involves the renewing of the mind to walk out what already is in the new creation that is one spirit with Christ now. The Holy Spirit transforms us as we behold the glory/goodness of the Lord as in a mirror. We participate in this with Him. 2 Cor. 3:17-18
God sets apart ( sanctifies ) our attitudes and actions outwardly but you are 100% set apart ( sanctified ) as a person..the real you in your inner man..the new creation in Christ.
Hebrews 10:14 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.
( who are sanctified this is present passive..passive is that something is being done to you ...the Spirit of the Lord in us changing us. )
Here is what Jesus told Paul on the road to Damascus....having been sanctified ( perfect passive ).
Perfect tense =The perfect tense in Greek is used to describe a completed past action which produced results which are still in effect all the way up to the present. This is continuously happening in the present.
Passive means something is being done to you - you are not doing it.
Acts 26:17 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.' (perfect passive )
It is obvious from scripture that we are to walk out the holiness that is in us.
There is a difference between us as a person being "set apart" ( sanctified in our spirit ) and "setting apart " ( sanctifying ) our behavior.
1 Peter 1:15-16 (NASB)
[SUP]15[/SUP] but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior;
[SUP]16 [/SUP] because it is written, "YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY."
We are holy because He is holy! Christ makes us holy.
As we behold the glory/goodness of the Lord as in a mirror we are transformed in our minds by the Holy Spirit to work out what is already inside us in the new Creation that is in Christ. 2 Cor. 3:17-18 & Romans 12:2
We are perfectly sanctified in Christ now....very true....we as an identity the new creation in Christ will never be more holy then we are now.
However there is a "sanctifying" of our behavior that is on-going that reflects our true nature in Christ...so in essence...we are becoming outwardly who we really are in our inner man which is in Christ.
This involves the renewing of the mind to walk out what already is in the new creation that is one spirit with Christ now. The Holy Spirit transforms us as we behold the glory/goodness of the Lord as in a mirror. We participate in this with Him. 2 Cor. 3:17-18
God sets apart ( sanctifies ) our attitudes and actions outwardly but you are 100% set apart ( sanctified ) as a person..the real you in your inner man..the new creation in Christ.
Hebrews 10:14 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.
( who are sanctified this is present passive..passive is that something is being done to you ...the Spirit of the Lord in us changing us. )
Here is what Jesus told Paul on the road to Damascus....having been sanctified ( perfect passive ).
Perfect tense =The perfect tense in Greek is used to describe a completed past action which produced results which are still in effect all the way up to the present. This is continuously happening in the present.
Passive means something is being done to you - you are not doing it.
Acts 26:17 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.' (perfect passive )
It is obvious from scripture that we are to walk out the holiness that is in us.
There is a difference between us as a person being "set apart" ( sanctified in our spirit ) and "setting apart " ( sanctifying ) our behavior.
1 Peter 1:15-16 (NASB)
[SUP]15[/SUP] but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior;
[SUP]16 [/SUP] because it is written, "YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY."
We are holy because He is holy! Christ makes us holy.
As we behold the glory/goodness of the Lord as in a mirror we are transformed in our minds by the Holy Spirit to work out what is already inside us in the new Creation that is in Christ. 2 Cor. 3:17-18 & Romans 12:2
Well Amen Bill.
Which is why Grace has many times posted John 6:40 to support HIS understanding of what we MUST do,
but instead he is supporting MY understanding of what we MUST DO.
This is the reason he has never explained what BELIEVE means after all the times I've asked him. Because the meaning of BELIEVE does not jive with what he writes.
I DO NOT MAKE UP DOCTRINE. It's made up by mainline churches and theologians.
MR. CALVIN is not one of the top theologians who understood and explained Christianity.
He came along very late and TICKLED OUR EARS with things people like to hear,
BUT WHICH ARE NOT TRUE.
See. All it took was a simple reading of the bible with no pre.conceived notions and you come up with the truth.
Also, we should Always consider those reading along who may not understand everything very well, or who may be new Christians. What they understand about their walk with God is very important.
Jesus demanded that we behave a certain way and walk with Him a certain way and do the best we could.
THIS is what is to be preached...
We are in danger of eternal loss of salvation. This is clear from scripture.
Jesus and the Writers would not have made such a big deal about warning us and the N.T. is full of warnings.
Which is why Grace has many times posted John 6:40 to support HIS understanding of what we MUST do,
but instead he is supporting MY understanding of what we MUST DO.
This is the reason he has never explained what BELIEVE means after all the times I've asked him. Because the meaning of BELIEVE does not jive with what he writes.
I DO NOT MAKE UP DOCTRINE. It's made up by mainline churches and theologians.
MR. CALVIN is not one of the top theologians who understood and explained Christianity.
He came along very late and TICKLED OUR EARS with things people like to hear,
BUT WHICH ARE NOT TRUE.
See. All it took was a simple reading of the bible with no pre.conceived notions and you come up with the truth.
Also, we should Always consider those reading along who may not understand everything very well, or who may be new Christians. What they understand about their walk with God is very important.
Jesus demanded that we behave a certain way and walk with Him a certain way and do the best we could.
THIS is what is to be preached...
We are in danger of eternal loss of salvation. This is clear from scripture.
Jesus and the Writers would not have made such a big deal about warning us and the N.T. is full of warnings.
Typical Roman Catholic error. In John 3:36, notice that this BELIEF is not in yourself, getting baptized, church attendance, or any other type of good work. Notice also that this BELIEF is not in Jesus Christ "plus something else," otherwise the BELIEF (trust, reliance) would not be "ON THE SON".
In regards to "does not obey the Son" in the New American Standard translation of the Bible, obeying the Son here does not mean salvation by works, but obey by choosing to believe on the Son. If John wanted to make obedience the central theme in salvation here, he would have said: "He who believes and obeys the Son has eternal life," but that is not what John said. To obey the Son here is to believe on the Son. He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him (John 3:36, NASB).
The King James Version renders this same verse as: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that "believeth not the Son" shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. The NKJV says "does not believe the Son" and the NIV says "rejects the Son." The Greek word translated as "believeth not" in that verse is apeitheo and it means: not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving. Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely." In the context of 3:36, to not obey the Son means to reject His message by refusing to believe on the Son. Seeking salvation by works is not obeying the Son.
In regards to "does not obey the Son" in the New American Standard translation of the Bible, obeying the Son here does not mean salvation by works, but obey by choosing to believe on the Son. If John wanted to make obedience the central theme in salvation here, he would have said: "He who believes and obeys the Son has eternal life," but that is not what John said. To obey the Son here is to believe on the Son. He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him (John 3:36, NASB).
The King James Version renders this same verse as: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that "believeth not the Son" shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. The NKJV says "does not believe the Son" and the NIV says "rejects the Son." The Greek word translated as "believeth not" in that verse is apeitheo and it means: not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving. Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely." In the context of 3:36, to not obey the Son means to reject His message by refusing to believe on the Son. Seeking salvation by works is not obeying the Son.
No it is not. Obedience follows belief. Either I have to believe you or Paul. And I prefer Paul. Romans 3.20-5.21 makes this quite clear. First belief unto justification, which results in obedience and sanctification,
Ah so you have special knowledge of what the Greeks believed? In fact follow and learn from comes AFTER belief. And so the Greeks accepted it.
It is obviously foolish. We may sometimes believe someone and not obey. Peter believed even when he disobeyed. It is only true in general. But you have to take into account our moral weakness.
That it ridiculous and self evidently wrong.
Ah so you have special knowledge of what the Greeks believed? In fact follow and learn from comes AFTER belief. And so the Greeks accepted it.
It is obviously foolish. We may sometimes believe someone and not obey. Peter believed even when he disobeyed. It is only true in general. But you have to take into account our moral weakness.
That it ridiculous and self evidently wrong.