What A Sovereign God Cannot Do....

[SovereignGrace]

maybe thats the issue, different translations

kjv " romans 10:17 "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

modern niv "Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ."

I think either is fine, imo. When we speak of God, we also speak of the Christ.

original Niv " so then, faith comes by Hearing the message, and the mesage is heard through the word of Christ"

anyways , ive been in this circle alot, and it never goes anywhere, i hope youll consider, but thats your choice

I am just trying to get a better understanding of ppl's beliefs, so that I do not misrepresent their stance.

 

[followjesus]

Just for some clarity, does man do anything in this divine quickening? I mean, does He quicken after they do something first?

Believe in the One God sent. if we believe in Jesus, His words should be believed.

john 6:29"Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

the one He sent said many times " believe my words, believe my teachings, keep my commands"

as we grow, through simply believing, Gods word does the work.

 

[followjesus]

I think either is fine, imo. When we speak of God, we also speak of the Christ.



I am just trying to get a better understanding of ppl's beliefs, so that I do not misrepresent their stance.

no worries i undrstand, same woith me, Have a great Night God Loves you i know were in agreement there

 

[SovereignGrace]

Believe in the One God sent. if we believe in Jesus, His words should be believed.

john 6:29"Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

the one He sent said many times " believe my words, believe my teachings, keep my commands"

as we grow, through simply believing, Gods word does the work.

I agree that we must believe. However, Jesus said 'The work of God is this; that you believe on the Him." So, even when we believe, that ability to believe comes from God.

 

[trofimus]

maybe thats the issue, different translations

kjv " romans 10:17 "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

modern niv "Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ."

original Niv " so then, faith comes by Hearing the message, and the mesage is heard through the word of Christ"

anyways , ive been in this circle alot, and it never goes anywhere, i hope youll consider, but thats your choice

Wow, I did not know about this difference between the majority text and the oldest text.

I grew up in the majority text tradition and I have this verse memorized with the word "God" in the end.

But the word Christ changes the meaning quite significantly, for me...

 

[peacefulbeliever]

The...Most atrocious act known to mankind...A Man is given a bogus trial. The Law demanded two or three witnesses to execute a man. Yet when no two testimonies agreed, they still killed Him. And God was in control.

Well, of course, God's plan for salvation would be carried out. IOW, His word will not return void . . . He had his prophets prophecy the coming Messiah - it came to pass. . . He allowed Satan to enter the heart of Judas to betray our Lord - and he allowed Satan to have a had in Jesus' death. God allows Satan rule of this world for now BUT Satan's time is running out!

 

[peacefulbeliever]

You are failing to see how entrenched the lost are in their sins. They are slaves to it. They are blinded by it. They are dead in it. Now, here's where ppl miss the deadness of the lost in their sins. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.[2 Cor. 4:4] The lost are blinded to the gospel via Satan. Satan will not remove the blinders either, so that they can see. God has to come in and destroy the works of the devil in that individual's life so that they can see the gospel, which displays the glory of the Christ. Unless God removes those blinders, they can see the glory of the Christ. And when He quickens them, He then opens their eyes, so that NOW they can see the glory of Christ that the gospel displays.

Okay . . . God removes those blinders via his word - Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. I agree. I think where the disagreement comes in is that this offer of salvation is not offered to everyone. IOW, "whosoever" can hear the word, the gospel of Christ - (For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.) which opens ones' mind and eyes to see and to make the decision whether they believe the gospel or not. Whereas, I think what is being said is ONLY the ELECT will hear, ONLY the ELECT will have their eyes opened . . . . does the ELECT have the ability to make the decision to believe the gospel or to refuse what they hear? The way I see it, man hears the gospel, man makes a decision to believe the gospel or to not believe it . . . when man believes the gospel - he becomes part of the elect.

Basically - we aren't that far apart unless I am not understanding something!

 

[SovereignGrace]

Okay . . . God removes those blinders via his word - Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. I agree. I think where the disagreement comes in is that this offer of salvation is not offered to everyone. IOW, "whosoever" can hear the word, the gospel of Christ - (For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.) which opens ones' mind and eyes to see and to make the decision whether they believe the gospel or not. Whereas, I think what is being said is ONLY the ELECT will hear, ONLY the ELECT will have their eyes opened . . . . does the ELECT have the ability to make the decision to believe the gospel or to refuse what they hear? The way I see it, man hears the gospel, man makes a decision to believe the gospel or to not believe it . . . when man believes the gospel - he becomes part of the elect.

Basically - we aren't that far apart unless I am not understanding something!

Think about this...faith comes from hearing the word. Without hearing it, those who died w/o hearing it had no faith. So that shows that not everyone has faith.

 

[kaylagrl]

Hyper-dispensationialism at its finest. Just who is the Israel of the bible? Apostle Paul states it thusly, A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.[Romans 2:228,29] So the true Jews, the true Israelites, have had their hearts, and not foreskins, circumcised by the Spirit of God.

[Now, let's go to the beginning. God calls Abram our of the land of Ur of the Chaldeans. He then changes his name to Abraham, and told him he'd be the father of many nations, so this shows that not just Israel was going to be involved in those He called. We can read Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised?[Here we see both Jews and Gentiles included as the circumcision always referred to the Jews and the uncircumcision always referred to the Gentiles We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness.Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. And he is then also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also follow in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.[Romans 4:9-12]

So, the true Israel of the bible are all the faithful of all time and not the nation Israel in the middle east.

No,Im sorry you're wrong.What you are talking about is Replacement Theology and that came from the Catholic church teachings,which they renounced after the Holocaust. The chosen people are still the chosen people,the church has not replaced them and the promises God made to them He will still fulfill. The Nt talks of the church and then it speaks of Israel,separately,if it was meant to the church only it would have said so. Replacement theology,which goes under several different names and is false doctrine straight from the Catholic church. We'd need another thread to discuss it,but Romans is speaking to the Jew,not to you.

 

[Rockrz]

It's obvious he won't even read a full post

It's obvious you aren't going to look at all scripture on any given subject, hence the comments you perceive to be insults.

But, I understand... anyone that dares to disagree with you is insulting you.

When you mess with ppl's 'free will', they go hog wild and pig crazy.

Actually they just reject the false teaching that God did not give man free will... what's at stake is the ability to see / understand since God's Word plainly states that satan blinds the minds of those that do not believe mentioned in 2 Corinthians 4:4...but calvin's cult followers typically dismiss this verse as though God never even said it!


Here's a few more calvins people cannot explain away:

1 Timothy 2:3,4
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Romans 10:12,13
For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Titus 2:11-15
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee

We can clearly see from scripture that it's NOT God's will than anybody be lost and that the Lord's plan of salvation is intended for all.

 

[Rockrz]

Here's a good question for calvin's peeps... do you guys ignore the Great Commission where Jesus tells His followers to take the gospel to the entire world?

I mean you'd have to if you only believe a few folks were created to be saved and everyone else was created to burn in heLL, right?

Maybe you guys should start a theme park and all it "Calvinwood"... and only let a few people in and tell everyone else that this theme park was not intended for them

 

[kaylagrl]

Follow this thought to its logical conclusion. If the nation of Israel is God's chosen ppl, you and I are goners, seeing we are not part of that nation whatsoever.

No,we are grafted in. God deals with us differently but Jews will be saved the same way we all are,though the blood of Christ.


[FONT=&quot]I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! [/FONT][FONT=&quot]I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel:[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”[a]?[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”[b][/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]5So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened, 8 as it is written:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that could not see
and ears that could not hear,
to this very day.”[c][/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]9 And David says:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]“May their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
10 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent forever.”[d]

Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles {you and I}to make Israel envious.

But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root,18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree,how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,26 and in this way[e] all Israel will be saved. As it is written:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is[f] my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”[g]

As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.

Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h] receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.




So this passage of Scripture shows several things. It shows that God has not taken His hand off of the Jews.It shows the Gentiles and the Jews are not one in the same and that the Gentiles have been grafted in to the vine. Here the verse says...Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness." Provided you continue in His kindness! So you have a choice not to continue or to walk away from Gods kindness. In another verses it says..."And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again" If they do not persist in unbelief,again a the choice is theirs if they do not persist God is able to graft the Jews in again. Both verses show we have a choice,we can continue in unbelief or we can turn back to God. Free choice,all throughout this passage of Scripture which is about unbelieving Israel who are the chosen,not the church.[/FONT]

[/FONT]

 

[Depleted]

See, this is what I mean. The above quote isn't true, it is in fact completely false.

Sure, the person thinks she knows what she said to be true, but there is a huge lack of understanding on her part. This leads to both false conclusions and false accusations.

FTR, and for those who don't wish to misrepresent others as I have been in the above, I don't disagree with free grace whatsoever.

So the statement above is untrue and is an absurd false accusation, totally unfounded and done in ignorance.

What I do disagree with is Free Grace Theology. There is a huge difference between free grace and Free Grace Theology.

Someone needs to know the difference and this is where the huge mistake comes in with the false accusation above. The person thinks she knows what she is talking about in her accusation, but she absolutely does not. Learn the difference between free grace and Free Grace Theology prior to making inane accusations oblivious of the truth.

But I digress. This is why I say some are benighted, aren't comprehending what is said, and then make untrue knee jerk statements about others, pounding on their keyboards, ignorant of phrases, theological systems and others true positions.

You misspoke, you slandered, you do not know what you're even talking about.

The above quotation is yet just one more example of this happening. The OP makes the same errors - misrepresenting others and taking them out of context. You really shouldn't be making these accusations because you're assuming and doing so in ignorance of the facts.

Thanks.

Exactly the problem. She keeps lying about what we believe, and then sets us up to learn what she believes.

If someone keeps lying about me, exactly why should I listen to anything after that? Doesn't that mean, at best, my job is to see if there is any truth between the lies? Why?

This stopped being "like talking to a wall." This is Kayla protecting her grounds above what God wants, above all other people who live on the same grounds, and above God himself.

When you are so focused on proving your point that you have no idea you're even lying about the other person, that's Psalms 125:5
[FONT=&quot]But those who turn aside to their crooked ways[/FONT][FONT=&quot] the Lord will lead away with evildoers!
[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Peace be upon Israel![/FONT]

I'd rather have God's peace than Kayla's path.

I get arguing against a false gospel. I don't get why y'all are still arguing with someone who insists that lying about what you believe reinforces her gospel.

 

[kaylagrl]

Exactly the problem. She keeps lying about what we believe, and then sets us up to learn what she believes.

If someone keeps lying about me, exactly why should I listen to anything after that? Doesn't that mean, at best, my job is to see if there is any truth between the lies? Why?

This stopped being "like talking to a wall." This is Kayla protecting her grounds above what God wants, above all other people who live on the same grounds, and above God himself.

When you are so focused on proving your point that you have no idea you're even lying about the other person, that's Psalms 125:5
But those who turn aside to their crooked waysthe Lord will lead away with evildoers!
Peace be upon Israel!

I'd rather have God's peace than Kayla's path.

I get arguing against a false gospel. I don't get why y'all are still arguing with someone who insists that lying about what you believe reinforces her gospel.

​Good Sunday morning to you too Lynn.Be blessed.

 

[Marano]

There's nothing a sovereign God can't do, there are things however He doesn't want to do, if you say God is holy therefore He cannot do this or that, so He is not so sovereign after all, you're not seeing that the reason He doesn't do this or that, is because He freely chooses not to do this or that, and He is the only one capable of that choice that's what being sovereign means.

We are not sovereign over our will to do good, man dead in sin and trespasses can't do good, there's no one that does good not even one, that doesn't exclude man's responsability to the law, but the law shows the incapability of man to fully fulfil it, that's why we need God's grace and the holy spirit to guide us and make us capable of good works that are presentable before God.

 

[kaylagrl]

On to Romans 9....

Norman Geisler wrote in When Critics Ask, “Regarding unclear passages, one should always use the clear passage of scripture to interpret unclear ones.”

In Romans, particularly Chapter 9, Paul is explaining to the Jews how God could accept the Gentiles and reject part of the nation of Israel. This was a hard concept for God's “Chosen People.” So Romans 9 is dealing primarily with the nation of Israel.

J. Vernon McGee's Thru The Bible says the theme of Romans Chapter 9 is: "Israel defined; Israel identified; the choice of Israel in the sovereign purpose of God; the choice of Gentiles in the scriptural prophecies." McGee writes of the section of Romans containing Chapters 9 through 11 "it deals with the eschatological, that is, the prophetic, section of the Bible that reveals God is not through with Israel.Now as we begin chapter 9, notice that this has to do with God's past dealings with Israel. In chapter 10 we will see God's present dealings with Israel and, in chapter 11, God's future dealings with Israel as a nation…”

What is being described is selection for "service" not "salvation." God was talking about forming clay (Israel) to be used to bring the Messiah into the world.

John Wesley writes of Romans 9:

In this chapter St. Paul, after strongly declaring his love and esteem for them [the Jews/Israel], sets himself to answer the grand objection of his countrymen; namely, that the rejection of the Jews and reception of the gentiles was contrary to the word of God. That he had not here the least thought of personal election or reprobation is manifest,

• 1. Because it lay quite wide of his design, which was this, to show that God's rejecting the Jews and receiving the gentiles was consistent
  with his word
  
  2. Because such a doctrine would not only have had no tendency to convince, but would have evidently tended to harden, the Jews;
  
  3. Because when he sums up his argument in the close of the chapter, he has not one word, or the least intimation, about it.
  
  

Calvinists use the 9th chapter of Romans as proof of God's predestining some for salvation and some for hell and use Paul's three illustrations in this chapter to prove their point:

• God loving Jacob and hating Esau
  
• Hardening Pharaoh's Heart
  
• Clay in the Hands of God
  

God loving Jacob and hating Esau

In Hebrew the word that is translated into English as “hate” can also mean “love less” or “put in second place.” See Genesis 29:31, Deuteronomy 21:15, and Luke 14:26.

• 'Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."' Romans 9:13
  

• I have loved Jacob, but Esau I have hated Malachi 1:2-3
  

God's choice of Jacob had nothing to do with salvation, but rather with who would be the father of the nation of Israel.

Billy Graham's magazine Decision once covered this particular verse. The article said in English “love” and “hate” are primarily words of emotion.
However, the Hebrew words so translated in this passage have a meaning different from what we might expect. The Hebrew verb translated “love” means having a positive relationship. The Hebrew word for “hate” indicates a non-relationship, or a negative relationship.

The statement might be paraphrased and explained thus: “I offered Jacob a positive relationship with Me and he accepted it, so he enjoys everything that the relationship implies; I offered the same positive relationship to Esau, but he rejected it, so he can expect nothing that is brought by a positive relationship.”

From another website:

• ...Maybe the choice of words was to produce an emphasis or contrast. In Luke 14:26, God uses the word "hate" to contrast what our love should be toward Him. Here He says, "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brother and sisters –yes, even his own life –he cannot be my disciple." Obviously, God is not saying we should actually hate our parents (or ourselves). He was only making a contrast of how great our love for God should be in comparison to our love for our family. (www.
  biblehelp.org/esau.htm)
  

God does not contradict Himself and hating your parents would violate the 5th Commandment

• Honor your father and your mother Exodus 20:12
  

and it would also contradict Jesus when He spoke to the Pharisees and teachers of the law:

• Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? For God said, 'Honor your father and
  mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.' But you say that if a man says to his father or mother,
  'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,' he is not to 'honor his father ' with it. Thus
  you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition." Matthew 15:3-6
  

Also, the writer of Hebrews tells us Esau was rejected because he rejected his birthright for a morsel of food. Esau was more interested in his stomach than his relationship with God:

• Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the
  grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled; lest there be any fornicator
  or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright. For you know that afterward, when he wanted to
  inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears. Hebrews 12:
  14-17
  

Genesis 25:34 states “Esau despised his birthright.” The other point to remember here is Jacob and Esau are being discussed not only as individuals but as nations. Keep in mind what was being described was not salvation but service and inheritance. To verify this point go back to Genesis and read the account of the birth of Jacob and Esau:

• Isaac prayed to the LORD on behalf of his wife, because she was barren. The LORD answered his prayer, and his wife Rebekah became pregnant. The babies jostled each other within her, and she said, "Why is this happening to me?" So she went to inquire of
  the LORD.
  
  The LORD said to her, "Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples from within you will be separated; one people will be stronger than the other, and the older will serve the younger."
  
  When the time came for her to give birth, there were twin boys in her womb. Genesis 25:21-25
  

When you read the whole Genesis account of Jacob and Esau you see Esau never had much interest in his birthright. As far as Jacob stealing Esau's blessing, that has nothing to do with his salvation.

Also the reference in Romans 9 is talking about the nations that resulted from Jacob & Esau, not their individual salvation. As you can see no matter how you slice it Paul in Romans 9 was not talking about predestining the salvation of any individual.



cont in next post....

 

[kaylagrl]

post #2 ...


Hardening Pharaoh's Heart

• For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name
  might be proclaimed in all the earth." Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants
  to harden. Romans 9:17-18
  

In Thru The Bible Commentary on Exodus J. Vernon McGee (www.ttb.org) writes:

• The hardening is a figurative word, which can mean twisting, as with a rope. It means God twisted the heart of Pharaoh. He was going to squeeze out what was in it. God forced him to do the thing he really wanted to do. God's part in this was to bring to the surface that which was already there...
  

And elsewhere McGee writes:

• ...There is an old familiar illustration which says that the same sun will melt the wax but harden the clay. It is the character of, or the condition of, the element and not the sun that melts the wax and hardens the clay. God is not going to harden you.

• He did not
  

• 
  
  • harden Pharaoh's heart. Pharaoh already possessed a hard heart, and God only brought that fact out into the open.

• 
  

Even if you accept that God specifically made Pharaoh do something he might not have done otherwise that has nothing to do with salvation but rather it has to do with causing action for a specific task.

If God had not compelled Pharaoh to do what was already in his heart, or if God had not forced Pharaoh to do what God wanted him to do, God would have found someone else. The Book of Esther offers a good example.

In the Book of Esther, Esther's uncle Mordecai told her (through Hathach, one of the king's eunuchs) to go to the king and plead with him for the Jews so that they would not be destroyed. To this Esther replied, through the eunuch to her uncle, that it would be death for her if she did as her uncle told her. She also indicated that even though she was a Jew she was in a protected group and feared she to jeopardize that protected position.

Mordecai replied:

• "...Do not imagine that you in the king's palace can escape any more than all the Jews. For if you remain silent at this time, relief and deliverance will arise for the Jews from another place and you and your father's house will perish. And who knows whether you have not attained royalty for such a time as this?" Esther 4:13-14
  
  What Mordecai was saying is God put Esther in that place for a reason and that she had free will to refuse to be obedient; and, even if she refused, God would work through someone else. In the end Esther did as her uncle directed and both she and the Jews were saved from destruction and were blessed.
  
  This is similar somewhat to the story of Jonah. In the Book of Jonah God directed Jonah to go to Nineveh to warn the Ninevites that if they didn't repent and follow God that they would be destroyed. Jonah thought the Ninevites deserved to be destroyed and refused to follow God's direction by sailing away in a different direction. In the end God did get Jonah's attention and he resentfully obeyed.
  
  Oftentimes people interpret what's being described in the Bible as referring to "salvation" when in reality it is describing "service." God chose some for certain service and for others He may have planned for greater or lesser service. Again, Esther and Jonah bear this out.
  
  Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
  Romans 9:21 King James Version

The context of this passage is not describing the fact that God creates some to be dishonorable or damned but that some people are used in more common ways and some are used in other ways.

In Lamentations God shows us that because of their actions the Israelites are punished for their actions, not because God determined from the beginning of time they would be pots of clay rather than valuable like gold:

• How the precious sons of Zion,
  once worth their weight in gold,
  are now considered as pots of clay,
  the work of a potter's hands!
  

• Lamentations 4:2
  
  
• The point is that God sovereignly chooses how He wants us to be used by giving us gifts, ministries, passions, opportunities, etc.
• Paul is quoting Isaiah 29 and 45 and using the imagery of Jeremiah 18 at the Potter's house where God shapes the pot as it seems best to Him.
• [FONT=&quot]Paul is noting that in our sin we miss the point (relationship over religion). He summarizes his case in vs. 30-33 by noting that the religious Jews [/FONT][FONT=&quot]were lost vs. the non-religious Gentiles were saved...all by faith vs. works.[/FONT]

 

[kaylagrl]

and finally....


[FONT=&quot]Those who reject God are the objects of wrath who by their own actions are heading for judgment. Destruction is the penalty for rejecting God. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The Bible tells us that God is long suffering and patient. This is evident in the Old Testament and Paul notes it here as well. Objects of mercy are [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]those who love God, and the Bible tells us from the beginning He had a plan for those who love Him and follow Him, just as He has a plan for [/FONT][FONT=&quot]those who reject Him.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]J. Vernon McGee suggests that “the ‘vessels of wrath’ are the Jewish nation, which was destroyed in A.D. 70. Jesus, you recall, announced this [/FONT][FONT=&quot]destruction, but He wept over the city, and he prayed, ". . . Father, forgive them . . ." (Luke 23:34). When the final judgment came in A.D. 70, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]God saved a remnant. These were "vessels of mercy."


[/FONT]In conclusion, as I said before, Paul was explaining to the Jews that if God wanted to use and save the Gentiles that God in His sovereignty had that right. In order to understand what God is saying through Paul one has to read what is before and what is after chapter 9 to get the big picture.

Rather than taking one passage from Romans one must look up specific words to see what they originally meant and also what they meant in context of what was being discussed and to whom it was being addressed. You have to consider the entirety of God’s word and not just certain passages or chapters.

• 
  

When put in Biblical and historical context there is nothing in Romans 9 for those in the Calvinist or Reformed Theology camps to justify their doctrine of predestination. Those in the Reformed theology crowd need to Read Romans 9 and then read Romans 10 & Romans 11 for context..

 

[kaylagrl]

There's nothing a sovereign God can't do, there are things however He doesn't want to do, if you say God is holy therefore He cannot do this or that, so He is not so sovereign after all, you're not seeing that the reason He doesn't do this or that, is because He freely chooses not to do this or that, and He is the only one capable of that choice that's what being sovereign means.

We are not sovereign over our will to do good, man dead in sin and trespasses can't do good, there's no one that does good not even one, that doesn't exclude man's responsability to the law, but the law shows the incapability of man to fully fulfil it, that's why we need God's grace and the holy spirit to guide us and make us capable of good works that are presentable before God.

Yes brother I agree with your last statement,we need Gods grace and the Holy Spirit to guide us. We certainly do agree.Where we disagree is choice based on election. You cannot say someone is elected for heaven and yet they have choice. We do have choice otherwise love is not from our hearts.If we are forced to love,forced to accept a gift then it is neither love nor a gift.The very essence of love is choice. Anyone who is married understands this,love is a choice.If it is not then God is no different than allah,forcing His will on people. God wants a relationship with us and His Holy Spirit draws us to Him. Some will accept,some will reject. All can hear,all can accept,the Bible is clear about this fact. I want to say that through these discussions I very much appreciate your attitude and consider you a brother in the Lord no matter our differences.

 

[kaylagrl]

There's nothing a sovereign God can't do, there are things however He doesn't want to do, if you say God is holy therefore He cannot do this or that, so He is not so sovereign after all, you're not seeing that the reason He doesn't do this or that, is because He freely chooses not to do this or that, and He is the only one capable of that choice that's what being sovereign means.

We are not sovereign over our will to do good, man dead in sin and trespasses can't do good, there's no one that does good not even one, that doesn't exclude man's responsability to the law, but the law shows the incapability of man to fully fulfil it, that's why we need God's grace and the holy spirit to guide us and make us capable of good works that are presentable before God.

Yes brother I agree with your last statement,we need Gods grace and the Holy Spirit to guide us. We certainly do agree.Where we disagree is choice based on election. You cannot say someone is elected for heaven and yet they have choice. We do have choice otherwise love is not from our hearts.If we are forced to love,forced to accept a gift then it is neither love nor a gift.The very essence of love is choice. Anyone who is married understands this,love is a choice.If it is not then God is no different than allah,forcing His will on people. God wants a relationship with us and His Holy Spirit draws us to Him. Some will accept,some will reject. All can hear,all can accept,the Bible is clear about this fact. I want to say that through these discussions I very much appreciate your attitude and consider you a brother in the Lord no matter our differences.



the article posted comes from http://www.freewill-predestination.com/romans9.html I forgot to credit it.