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Please read this correctly...I'm not arguing the thread. Only that you used that portion of scripture out of context. It's not for the unsaved.
And preacher...I don't do this. You're just a toasty kind of guy...you know...dry bread.
God does give mercy to whomever he wills for as long as he wills and he is compassionate to whomever he wills for as long as he wills - It's his choice on how long he will be merciful and compassionate upon a person by being long suffering in his drawing, convicting and persuading giving everyone a chance for salvation but one can resist. I don't see anything here regarding "irrisistable" grace. Mercy is the withholding of just punishment and compassion is being sympathetic for the sufferings of others . . .
I never heard of irresistible grace until recently and that here. What scriptures speak of this?
Straw man. False accusation.
Wrong still, the fall caused that, not a biblical system of theology derided as "Calvinism."
The above isn't true either so I snipped off the rest. It's enough error in rapid fashion so no need to go on. When the foundational statements are false the rest is built off of that falseness.
Try again?
Maybe rightly represent Calvinism and Scripture next time?
Does God call it "preselection" or is it called something "biblical" instead? Maybe choosing the term "preselection" is just showing disdain for God's electing grace and for the Biblical doctrine?
Sure sounds like it.
Annnnnnnddd for the record, we "Calvinists" know that is is they, the elect, who will respond.
BTW, we derive our "Calvinism" and that the elect will respond from the apostle Paul himself:
Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, the offspring of David, as preached in my gospel, for which I am suffering, bound with chains as a criminal. But the word of God is not bound! Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. - 2 Timothy 2:8-10.
...but of course Paul believed God's Word, so he had gotten the whole concept of God choosing (electing) whom He would save from God Himself. He was Biblical like that. So are we. Paul didn't seek for "choosers" he sought for and suffer for the sake of, once again, "the elect."
Romans 9
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
If man is going to receive mercy from God, it is going to be on God's terms not man's. Man cannot will it any other way. God has set the standard of mercy through Jesus Christ. If man desires mercy from God, then man must go through Jesus Christ.
Of course! Did I say God has left the building? No..How can He train us if He is not here? He gave us control and He will back us up...Really It says so in the bible...I posted scriptures on another thread in this forum...
Psalm 115:16
The heaven, even the heavens, are the Lord's: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.
Hi Lynn,
It looks like now you're lying. But I'm sure you're not. You just don't understand the other view.
See how one side accuses of lying, and then the other side might also. But I said it LOOKS like your lying, but I'm sure you're not. Just uninformed of the others view.
So why don't we throw that word away and try to understand the others view? Are we not fellow believers here even if our theology is so close and yet so different?
In no way do Arminians believe that! Even our faith is what God grants us, but it is our part in response to the Gospel message. In His Sovereign will, God frees up our will and then allows us to say yes or to say no to the truth of the gospel.
It is our very own faith that God gave us......and He gets all the glory for everything. So we say, "Hallelujah! Look at what God has done for us!"
Hi John,
It is on God's terms. No one says it isn't. But look at what God says about whom He'll have mercy on. So don't stop at chapter 9. Keep reading and you'll find more about the mercy of God.
From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. Romans 11:29-32
I know, many people believe that is what it teaches because it appears thus. It is a common misnomer. Total Depravity is another that is misunderstood due to its phrasing.
But what IG does teach is in the end all God has elected will finally be gathered in by His grace, unable to resist it any further. Note Paul in Acts 9, he had "kicked against the goads" for a time, but God's grace succeeded.
Annnnnnnddd for the record, we "Calvinists" know that is is they, the elect, who will respond.
BTW, we derive our "Calvinism" and that the elect will respond from the apostle Paul himself:
Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, the offspring of David, as preached in my gospel, for which I am suffering, bound with chains as a criminal. But the word of God is not bound! Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. - 2 Timothy 2:8-10.
...but of course Paul believed God's Word, so he had gotten the whole concept of God choosing (electing) whom He would save from God Himself. He was Biblical like that. So are we. Paul didn't seek for "choosers" he sought for and suffer for the sake of, once again, "the elect."
And you know what, so do we!
Every biblical term you use is our vocabulary as well. We believe in the elect, predestination, God's sovereignty, foreknowledge, etc. It's in the details that we all disagree.
So let me ask you a question? Can I be your sister in the Lord if I'm not a Calvinist?
Total Depravity and Irresistible grace are men's terms. All God has elected, chosen - Again it is God's will that ALL men be saved . . . . I don't want to make another "conflation" but wouldn't that mean that ALL men would be chosen, i.e. elected?I know, many people believe that is what it teaches because it appears thus. It is a common misnomer. Total Depravity is another that is misunderstood due to its phrasing.
But what IG does teach is in the end all God has elected will finally be gathered in by His grace, unable to resist it any further. Note Paul in Acts 9, he had "kicked against the goads" for a time, but God's grace succeeded.
That was a mighty thing God did for Paul - by His mercy and by His compassion and unmerited favor toward Paul - a miracle was set before Paul to get his attention. God worked through and despite the evil being brought upon his church.
K
kaylagrl
Guest
Yes sister,we agree save those who believe,all can freely come and believe and be saved.We do agree on this.
There is nothing that a sovereign God cannot do. God however wills of Himself not to do certain things. God will not violate His word. Gods will is sovereign but man has a will to deal with. God will not tempt man to sin.
Sin cannot overcome or resist the grace of God. Gods grace always prevails in the presence of sin. Sin has been completely conquered by the blood of Christ.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Sin cannot overcome or resist the grace of God. Gods grace always prevails in the presence of sin. Sin has been completely conquered by the blood of Christ.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
K
kaylagrl
Guest
Brother you misunderstand.This is speaking of Israel and the Jews.He is not speaking of the Gentiles. Chapters 9,10,11 are mainly to the Jews.If you get confused over who is being spoken of you come up with a false doctrine.
"3What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25As he says in Hosea:“I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people;
and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,”[SUP]i[/SUP]
26and,“In the very place where it was said to them,
‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘children of the living God.’ ”[SUP]j[/SUP]
27Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:“Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,
only the remnant will be saved.
28For the Lord will carry out
his sentence on earth with speed and finality.”[SUP]k
[/SUP]
K
kaylagrl
Guest
Right here is the heart of the issue,once again from Wesley....
.... To this some have answered, "No: It is free only for those whom God hath ordained to life; and they are but a little flock. The greater part of God hath ordained to death; and it is not free for them. Them God hateth; and, therefore, before they were born, decreed they should die eternally. And this he absolutely decreed; because so was his good pleasure; because it was his sovereign will. Accordingly, they are born for this, -- to be destroyed body and soul in hell. And they grow up under the irrevocable curse of God, without any possibility of redemption; for what grace God gives. he gives only for this, to increase, not prevent, their damnation."
5. This that decree of predestination. But methinks I hear one say, "This is not the predestination which I hold: I hold only the election of grace. What I believe is not more than this, -- that God,, before the foundation of the world, did elect a certain number of men to be justified, sanctified, and glorified. Now, all these will be saved, and none else; for the rest of mankind God leaves to themselves: So they follow the imaginations of their own hearts, which are only evil continually, and, waxing worse and worse, are at length justly punished with everlasting destruction."
6. Is this all the predestination which you hold Consider; perhaps this is not all. Do not you believe God ordained them to this very thing" If so, you believe the whole degree; you hold predestination in the full sense which has been above described. But it may be you think you do not. Do not you then believe, God hardens the hearts of them that perish: Do not you believe, he (literally) hardened Pharaoh's heart; and that for this end he raised him up, or created him Why, this amounts to just the same thing. If you believe Pharaoh, or any one man upon earth, was created for this end, -- to be damned, -- you hold all that has been said of predestination. And there is no need you should add, that God seconds his degree, which is supposed unchangeable and irresistible, by hardening the hearts of those vessels of wrath whom that decree had before fitted for destruction.
Here is where those who disagree with Calvinism stop,those who speak of Reformed,this is where we all part ways. Now preacher if this is not what you believe will you kindly and plainly tell me where Wesley is wrong.
.... To this some have answered, "No: It is free only for those whom God hath ordained to life; and they are but a little flock. The greater part of God hath ordained to death; and it is not free for them. Them God hateth; and, therefore, before they were born, decreed they should die eternally. And this he absolutely decreed; because so was his good pleasure; because it was his sovereign will. Accordingly, they are born for this, -- to be destroyed body and soul in hell. And they grow up under the irrevocable curse of God, without any possibility of redemption; for what grace God gives. he gives only for this, to increase, not prevent, their damnation."
5. This that decree of predestination. But methinks I hear one say, "This is not the predestination which I hold: I hold only the election of grace. What I believe is not more than this, -- that God,, before the foundation of the world, did elect a certain number of men to be justified, sanctified, and glorified. Now, all these will be saved, and none else; for the rest of mankind God leaves to themselves: So they follow the imaginations of their own hearts, which are only evil continually, and, waxing worse and worse, are at length justly punished with everlasting destruction."
6. Is this all the predestination which you hold Consider; perhaps this is not all. Do not you believe God ordained them to this very thing" If so, you believe the whole degree; you hold predestination in the full sense which has been above described. But it may be you think you do not. Do not you then believe, God hardens the hearts of them that perish: Do not you believe, he (literally) hardened Pharaoh's heart; and that for this end he raised him up, or created him Why, this amounts to just the same thing. If you believe Pharaoh, or any one man upon earth, was created for this end, -- to be damned, -- you hold all that has been said of predestination. And there is no need you should add, that God seconds his degree, which is supposed unchangeable and irresistible, by hardening the hearts of those vessels of wrath whom that decree had before fitted for destruction.
Here is where those who disagree with Calvinism stop,those who speak of Reformed,this is where we all part ways. Now preacher if this is not what you believe will you kindly and plainly tell me where Wesley is wrong.