What A Sovereign God Cannot Do....

[Depleted]

Hahahah! ......no I don't think you're 6.

Actually many Christians don't know about Arminianism nor Calvinism. If they even heard the terms, they have no idea what all they entail.

I've studied Calvinism more than Arminianism but I don't think I'm either. However, what I believe does side with Arminian.

And with all the studying I've done, I'm still learning about each one's belief. So I don't assume anyone here has all the answers and I don't assume you don't or that you do. Let's reason together, let's discuss without the ugliness that this type of discussion usually brings. Can we do that?

Maybe you believed you saved yourself ........I have never believed that. And that is not what Arminianism teaches.

Maybe you have read these already, I never have.

In the latter 16th century James (Jacobus) Arminius, a Dutch Reformed theologian, challenged John Calvin and Theodore Beza’s formulation of the classic Reformed doctrine of predestination. While Arminius did not depart far from the Reformed position, he gave a larger place to the faith of the believer and came to a position of conditional predestination rather than the absolute predestination of Calvin and the double predestination of Beza.


After Arminius’ death (1609), his supporters under the leadership of Simon Episcopius came to be called the Remonstrants ("remonstrant"- to oppose) after issuing the Remonstrantiœ in 1610, a document containing five points summarizing their divergence from certain aspects of accepted Dutch Reformed theology. In these five articles they advocated conditional rather than absolute predestination, universal rather than limited atonement, the necessity of regeneration and transformation through the Holy Spirit, and the possibility of both resistance to and rejection of God’s grace.


The five articles of the Remonstrants became the focus of the Synod of Dordtrecht in the Netherlands, and occasioned The Canons of Dordt, a document of the Dutch Reformed Church that rejected the teachings of Arminius and the Remonstrants and essentially declared their position to be heretical.


Even though Arminius and the Remonstrants were condemned, the controversy did not end and had a liberalizing effect on theology in Europe and England, as well as the American colonies. By the mid 1700s the basic positions of Arminius were refined and expanded in England under the movement begun by John and Charles Wesley. In both England and the newly formed United States, Methodism and an array of churches followed what became known as Arminian-Wesleyan theology.

Today, the five points of the Remonstrants still articulate the essential differences between Calvinistic/Reformed traditions and Arminian Wesleyan traditions (See "TULIP" Calvinism Compared to Wesleyan Perspectives; see also The Triumph of Arminianism (and its dangers)).
The Five Articles of the Remonstrants, 1610

Article 1.

[Conditional Election - corresponds to the second of TULIP’s five points, Unconditional Election]

That God, by an eternal and unchangeable purpose in Jesus Christ his Son before the foundation of the world, has determined that out of the fallen, sinful race of men, to save in Christ, for Christ’s sake, and through Christ, those who through the grace of the Holy Spirit shall believe on this his son Jesus, and shall persevere in this faith and obedience of faith, through this grace, even to the end; and, on the other hand, to leave the incorrigible and unbelieving in sin and under wrath and to condemn them as alienated from Christ, according to the word of the Gospel in John 3:36: “He that believes on the Son has everlasting life: and he that does not believe the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides on him,” and according to other passages of Scripture also.
Article 2.

[Unlimited Atonement - corresponds to the third of TULIP’s five points, Limited Atonement]

That, accordingly, Jesus Christ the Savior of the world, died for all men and for every man, so that he has obtained for them all, by his death on the cross, redemption and the forgiveness of sins; yet that no one actually enjoys this forgiveness of sins except the believer, according to the word of the Gospel of John 3:16, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” And in the First Epistle of John 2:2: “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”
Article 3.

[Deprivation - corresponds to the first of TULIP’s five points, Total Depravity]

That man does not posses saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free will, inasmuch as in his state of apostasy and sin he can of and by himself neither think, will, nor do any thing that is truly good (such as saving Faith eminently is); but that it is necessary that he be born again of God in Christ, through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, and will, and all his faculties, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the Word of Christ, John 15:5, “Without me you can do nothing.”
Article 4.

[Resistible Grace - corresponds to the fourth of TULIP’s five points, Irresistible Grace]

That this grace of God is the beginning, continuance, and accomplishment of all good, even to the extent that the regenerate man himself, without prevenient or assisting, awakening, following and cooperative grace, can neither think, will, nor do good, nor withstand any temptations to evil; so that all good deeds or movements that can be conceived must be ascribed to the grace of God in Christ. But with respect to the mode of the operation of this grace, it is not irresistible, since it is written concerning many, that they have resisted the Holy Spirit (Acts 7, and elsewhere in many places).
Article 5.

[Assurance and Security - corresponds to the fifth of TULIP’s five points, Perseverance of the Saints]

That those who are incorporated into Christ by true faith, and have thereby become partakers of his life-giving Spirit, as a result have full power to strive against Satan, sin, the world, and their own flesh, and to win the victory; it being well understood that it is ever through the assisting grace of the Holy Spirit; and that Jesus Christ assists them through his Spirit in all temptations, extends to them his hand, and if only they are ready for the conflict, desire his help, and are not inactive, keeps them from falling, so that they, by no deceit or power of Satan, can be misled nor plucked out of Christ’s hands, according to the Word of Christ, John 10:28: “Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.” But whether they are capable, through negligence, of forsaking again the first beginning of their life in Christ, of again returning to this present evil world, of turning away from the holy doctrine which was delivered them, of losing a good conscience, of neglecting grace, that must be more particularly determined out of the Holy Scripture, before we ourselves can teach it with the full confidence of our mind.


These Articles, thus set forth and taught, the Remonstrants deem agreeable to the Word of God, tending to edification, and, as regards this argument, sufficient for salvation, so that it is not necessary or edifying to rise higher or to descend deeper.

~What I'm trying to say is that we need to listen to each other and not call one another names. As I read more about Calvinism, I find that within their own groups their doctrines differ somewhat.

The same with Arminianism. Some believe in the perseverance of the saints and some do not.

Let's listen to what everyone is saying and if we differ, let's say we differ. But if we do differ, it doesn't mean that Calvinism doesn't teach a certain thing. The church I went to were Hyper Calvinists.

So if I say Calvinists believe such and such and you don't believe that or P4T doesn't or any of the others then say so, but don't call me or another person a liar or other names. Because there are Calvinists that do believe the way I've presented it.

But if I'm in error...........afford the courtesy to show it. Show in Calvin's Institutes or Luther's whatever's being said in error. Show us.......we're here to learn and don't want to represent a false understanding of anything. Help us understand better. If we post an article and you disagree, help us to understand.

I have posted the tulip at least a couple of times. But no one has refuted what it says. So in my thinking, you all believe in the tulip.

So I asked P4T a question and haven't heard an answer yes or no yet..... so I'll ask you and the rest of the Reformed/Calvinsts here.

Do I/we have to believe in Calvinism/Reformed doctrine to be saved? Am I a sister in the Lord? Or am I/are we enemies of the cross of Christ?

I'll go at this in two ways:
1. Respond to your personal questions.
2. Respond to what's wrong with Arminius' followers. (Because I'm still trying to figure out how to spell Arminian versus Armenian, and I am so going to take years to remember how to spell Remonstrationism too. And, yeah, I know I took off on that word in directions it doesn't go, but that's my problem. I get stuck on some words and can't get unstuck. lol)

1. Respond to your personal question.
I have said, and repeated, and repeated again, and even more repeated that these two doctrines -- and all the ones in between -- don't stop us from God's salvation, we are probably all wrong at some point in what we believe, and God will shock us when we get to heaven by showing us where we missed it. So, YES, we are God's kids (assuming we really are God's kids.)

BUT, what you keep doing is telling us -- as in those of us who are responding to these posts consistently -- not as in "us the entire philosophical base of the Reformed believers" -- what we believe when absolutely none of us believe that! None!

And we represent Eastern European Reformed (Trof), Reformed Baptist (Angela), Upstate NY Reformed (notmyown -- don't really know which denomination she's in, but Upstate NY tells quite a bit about her right there lol) Midlantic Reformed/PCA (me), and redneck Reformed. (Just kidding Sov and Preach, but I have been thinking that photo of a guy with one long rifle in front of a holy-cow massive pickup is a real picture of one of you and taken by the other. It reminds me of my cousins from the South, so I've really been envisioning you both as good ole boys from the South, until you tell me that's not really your picture. It's either that or one of you is the Pink Panther and the other is his "sidekick." lol) But, notice, we're all from different parts of the English speaking world, (except possibly Trof, but he's a polyglot, so he still part of the English-speaking world.)

I only know what the Philadelphia presbytery believes personally. (And the Philadelphia presbytery wanders into all parts of Philly suburbs including a little of southeastern NJ, as well as in the city.) BUT that was 13 churches back when I really knew the entire presbytery, and we all believe in free choice. We all believe in God's grace saving us. And I did a poll on this site to see what the other reformers believed. Out of 10 answers, 10 said they believed in free choice.

But look what you said. Over and over again. And look what Kayla says over and over again. Either you both have aphasia and cannot tell the difference between the words "choice," "will" and "grace," or you are lying about what we believe. And, again, we believe in free choice and free grace, we don't believe in free will, so one out of three sentences is true. The three sentences are:
1. You don't believe in free choice. (Wrong. We do.)
2. You don't believe in free will. (True. We don't.)
3. You don't believe in free grace. (Wrong. Not only do we, we relish it!)

And, again, if I go around and say "Arminians think they deserve their salvation," exactly how many times would you try to correct what I said? And if I kept saying it even after you telling me you don't believe that what other word could you use for me but "liar"?

Do any Arminians think that? I did. My husband did. His family does. So probably. But then again, it is probable that some Reformed don't bother evangelizing because God's going to do what God's going to do. BUT if I lump all Arminians into that group, and keep telling you that's what Arminianism is, am I not a liar? Am I missing a third word here? Because after three weeks of this, I think it's way past time to get over "Calvinism means there is no free choice." And "Calvinism means there is no free grace." And "Calvinism means you don't have to tell anyone the gospel because God has already chosen whoever he wants." (And I do get you're not the one who keeps repeating that last one. So not blaming you there. Blaming Kayla for that one.)

I'm a starkly honest person. I annoy people because of my honesty. I will say nothing rather than lie. And yet, I've been told over and over again that I'm lying for three weeks now. Well, not so much that as people simply ignoring what I'm saying to tell everyone else what I'm saying when they're really lying about me.

I take that personally. It hurts. AND it pisses me off!!!

Are we sisters? Yes! So why would you want to do that to family?

And, nahhh, now I'm crying, so I won't want to deal with this argument anymore! There won't be a Part 2. Only thing I'm going to do from now on is see how much longer the lies keep coming. That was the reason I joined in on this thread in the first place anyway. Already figured out it is hard to fill a cup that is already full.

[video=youtube;fkv7O_mOn_E]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkv7O_mOn_E[/video]

 

[Depleted]

I have no idea what you're saying here. I don't play games whatever that's suppose to mean.

What I said in my post is based on this. Calvinism says Jesus died only for the elect. The atonement is for only the few.... I don't agree. Jesus died for all mankind, everyone. John 2:2: “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”

Also, limited atonement says only the church was purchased by Christ and not all people. I disagree. 2 Peter 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.

Limited Atonement:
Jesus died only for the elect. Though Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not efficacious for all. Jesus only bore the sins of the elect. ​Support for this position is drawn from such scriptures as Matt. 26:28 where Jesus died for ‘many'; John 10:11, 15 which say that Jesus died for the sheep (not the goats, per Matt. 25:32-33); John 17:9 where Jesus in prayer interceded for the ones given Him, not those of the entire world; Acts 20:28 and Eph. 5:25-27 which state that the Church was purchased by Christ, not all people; and Isaiah 53:12 which is a prophecy of Jesus’ crucifixion where he would bore the sins of many (not all).

Yeah, still going on. You keep telling us what "Calvinism says", when the reality is it's a theology, so doesn't talk at all. And, those of us who believe that theology don't believe much of what you keep telling us we believe. Now you're just adding to the list. Kind of like giving me a big gun, and showing me the broad side of a barn with a big bullseye on it. If I take enough shots, I'm bound to hit the target sometimes. Since I'm not good at shooting, it won't be often.

At least I'm not trying to teach people marksmanship, and blaming them because I can't shoot. And I'm not telling a sniper how to shoot! I'd be asking his help to learn what he already knows. Go figure.

Apparently, I'm the nutty one who would be asking the sniper how to shoot. Go figure.

 

[Depleted]

When Adam sinned, it put all us who were in Adam, dead in transgressions and sins. Ever saw a dead me see? See? Si'?

Ummm, Max asked a good question. One I cannot answer.

BUT, you didn't answer it either. Why would Satan bother with people if they're already blinded? They're right where he wants them.

 

[kaylagrl]

Free Grace continued...


.... This premised, let it be observed, that this doctrine represents our blessed Lord, "Jesus Christ the righteous," "the only begotten Son of the Father, full of grace and truth," as an hypocrite, a deceiver of the people, a man void of common sincerity. For it cannot be denied, that he everywhere speaks as if he was willing that all men should be saved. Therefore, to say he was not willing that all men should be saved, is to represent him as a mere hypocrite and dissembler. It cannot be denied that the gracious words which came out of his mouth are full of invitations to all sinners. To say, then, he did not intend to save all sinners, is to represent him as a gross deceiver of the people. You cannot deny that he says, "Come unto me, all ye that are weary and heavy laden." If, then, you say he calls those that cannot come; those whom he knows to be unable to come; those whom he can make able to come, but will not; how is it possible to describe greater insincerity You represent him as mocking his helpless creatures, by offering what he never intends to give. You describe him as saying on thing, and meaning another; as pretending the love which his had not. Him, in "whose mouth was no guile," you make full of deceit, void of common sincerity; -- then especially, when, drawing nigh the city, He wept over it, and said, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, -- and ye would not;" hqelhsa -- kai ouk hqelhsate. Now, if you say, they would, but he would not, you represent him (which who could hear) as weeping crocodiles' tears; weeping over the prey which himself had doomed to destruction!


...But there is yet more behind; for just as it honours the Son, so doth this doctrine honour the Father. It destroys all his attributes at once: It overturns both his justice, mercy, and truth yea, it represents the most holy God as worse than the devil, as both more false, more cruel, and more unjust. More false; because the devil, liar as he is, hath never said, "He willeth all men to be saved:" More unjust; because the devil cannot, if he would, be guilty of such injustice as you ascribe to God, when you say that God condemned millions of souls to everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels, for continuing in sin, which, for want of that grace he will not give them, they cannot avoid: And more cruel; because that unhappy spirit "seeketh rest and findeth none;" so that his own restless misery is a kind of temptation to him to tempt others. But God resteth in his high and holy place; so that to suppose him, of his own mere motion, of his pure will and pleasure, happy as he is, to doom his creatures, whether they will or no, to endless misery, is to impute such cruelty to him as we cannot impute even to the great enemy of God and man. It is to represent the high God (he that hath ears to hear let him hear!) as more cruel, false, and unjust than the devil!

This is the blasphemy clearly contained in the horrible decree+ of predestination! And here I fix my foot. On this I join issue with every assertor of it. You represent God as worse than the devil; more false, more cruel, more unjust. But you say you will prove it by scripture. Hold! What will you prove by Scripture that God is worse than the devil I cannot be. Whatever that Scripture proves, it never an prove this; whatever its true meaning be. This cannot be its true meaning. Do you ask, "What is its true meaning then" If I say, " I know not," you have gained nothing; for there are many scriptures the true sense whereof neither you nor I shall know till death is swallowed up in victory. But this I know, better it were to say it had no sense, than to say it had such a sense as this. It cannot mean, whatever it mean besides, that the God of truth is a liar. Let it mean what it will it cannot mean that the Judge of all the world is unjust. No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works....


Yea, the decree is past; and so it was before the foundation of the world. But what decree Even this: "I will set before the sons of men 'life and death, blessing cursing.' And the soul that chooseth life shall live, as the soul that chooseth death shall die." This decree whereby "whom God did foreknow, he did predestinate," was indeed from everlasting; this, whereby all who suffer Christ to make them alive are "elect according to the foreknowledge of God," now standeth fast, even as the moon, and as the faithful witnesses in heaven; and when heaven and earth shall pass away, yet this shall not pass away; for it is as unchangeable and eternal as is the being of God that gave it. This decree yields the strongest encouragement to abound in all good works and in all holiness; and it is a well-spring of joy, of happiness also, to our great and endless comfort. This is worthy of God; it is every way consistent with all the perfections of his nature. It gives us the noblest view both of his justice, mercy, and truth. To this agrees the whole scope of the Christian Revelation, as well as all the parts thereof. To this Moses and all the Prophets bear witness, and our blessed Lord and all his Apostles Thus Moses, in the name of his Lord: "I call heaven and earth to record against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that thou and thy seed may live." Thus Ezekiel: choose life, that thou and thy seed may live;"Thus Ezekiel: (To cite one Prophet for all "The soul that sinneth, it shall die: The son shall not bear" eternally, "the iniquity of the father. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." (18:20.) Thus our blessed Lord: "If any man thirst, let him come unto me and drink." (John 7:37.) Thus his great Apostle, St. Paul: (Acts 17:30 "God commandeth all men everywhere to repent; -- "all men everywhere;" every man in every place, without any exception either of place or person. Thus St. James: "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, who giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not, and it shall be given him." (James 1:5.) Thus St. Peter: (2 Pet. 3:9 "The Lord is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." And thus St. John: " If any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father; and he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but for the sins of the whole world." (1 John 2:1, 2.)

O hear ye this, ye that forget God! Ye cannot charge your death upon him! "`Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die' saith the Lord God." (Ezek. 18:23ff.) "Repent, and turn from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. Cast away from you all your transgressions where by ye have transgressed, -- for why will ye die, O house of Israel For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God. Wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye." "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked. -- Turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel" (Ezekiel 33:11.)

 

[Depleted]

Satan, in the form of a serpent, beguiled Eve, who then, in turn, gave to Adam, and he ate. Right here we can see the federal headship of Adam. It was not after Eve ate that her eyes were opened, but when Adam ate, their(both his and her) eyes were opened.

That put all of us in spiritual death(by Satan deceiving), as Adam is our federal head, as he is the federal head of all of us. The Christ is the Federal head of all those who believe. So, that is why our minds were blinded to the gospel by Satan.

Getting there now. (Answer wise.) Will have to think this out to figure out if I agree or not. AND will have to see if Max can still disagree. (Because I'm not always good at thinking it out without bias. lol)

 

[maxwel]

Ummm, Max asked a good question. One I cannot answer.

BUT, you didn't answer it either. Why would Satan bother with people if they're already blinded? They're right where he wants them.

Hey, I'm not mad at Calvinsts, I consider them my brothers and sisters in the Lord...

I just think we have some difficult issues here.



But to be fair, there are difficult issues on both sides of this debate.

 

[Depleted]

I don't know who "Wesley" is and I believe we are free to believe in Jesus Christ or not. You are correct I haven't seen any Calvinists quoting Calvin . . . what I have seen is that Romans 9-11 seem to be where their doctrine is derived. Three chapters in the book of Romans does not a doctrine make!!!! Love you guys . . .

Actually, the doctrine comes from the whole book of Romans. Romans 8-11 is where non-Reformed keep getting stuck. It's that elected, predestined, God loved Jacob but hated Esau parts that causes the problems. It's all still in there, but some would just rather ignore it all and hope it goes away.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

lol I wasn't arguing with you. Just got a kick that you understood IR as Irresistible Grace, and I couldn't catch that word out of that word. My belief. You'd think it would be easier for me to figure out IG than you. lol

But to answer your question, you've got a timeline problem going on. You think Irresistible Grace comes along when we're deciding. Beyond not thinking we'd ever make that decision, it's also the wrong part in the timeline.

God predestines and elects way before he created the universe. Jesus redeemed way back in about 33 AD. And we become redeemed after being called, and being regenerated, and even and then is that moment of irresistible grace. About the same time we are adopted by God. His irresistible grace. We want to be elected by the best father ever. it never dawns on us to not want that. Even now we can't come up a single reasons we don't wanna. He gives even that to us. We're his, we got full on of who he is, and no desire to leave. That's the Irresistible and even he gives that to us.

God predestined a plan for salvation before the foundation of the world. That plan was to offer salvation through faith in his Son, Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ paid the ultimate price for our salvation and eternal life . . . His life, His resurrection - all God's plan and purpose predestined for all men; some will accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior - some will not. Those who believe (have faith in) the gospel of Jesus Christ become a part of the called out, the chosen, the elect, the purchased possession, sons of God because of God's grace - Yes - for none of us deserved it.

Now this plan is set forth before all men . . . but God only gives grace, his undeserved favor toward man, to the individual that was predestined, called, chosen; i.e. elect - then that individual can't resist grace and therefore since it can't be resisted you have to do what God says to do, i.e. believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and that God raised him from the dead. THEN God looks down upon others and says, "hmmmm, I don't want you or you or you so I'm not going to give you grace therefore you won't be able to decide whether you believe in my Son or not!!" Is that basically what you believe?

 

[kaylagrl]

Sister, with all due respect, it is you who is failing to grasp Romans 9-11. I did an extensive study of that great book for 6-8 months.

The beginning of chapter 9 Paul laments his ppl. He said he could wish to be cut off for their sake, much like Moses did in Exodus 32.

Then he goes through the genealogy of Abraham's descendants and how not all of Israel is Israel, but the remnant of believers makes up Israel. He already covered who the true Jews were in chapter 2 being those who were circumcised in their hearts by the Spirit of God.

He then shows how God has always kept the Godly line by showing it was through Isaac and not Ishmael, through Jacob and not Esau, that the Messiah would come. That was the central focus of the Jews in God's sight...to bright the Messiah into the world.

Then he shows God's wrath upon sinners as He raised Pharaoh up to display His power through him. He goes on to say "He will have mercy upon whom He will have mercy, and harden whom He wants to harden."

Then we see God's sovereign election in that He has objects of mercy and objects of wrath. He took the objects of mercy from the same lump the objects of wrath were in. Paul expressed that same thought in Ephesians 1 when he wrote God chose us in Christ from before the creation of the world, and in Ephesians 2 where it says we were children of wrath too, before being saved.

Then in verse 24 Paul refers to the Gentiles and then expresses Hosea and those who were not a ppl are now the ppl of God. They have become the children of God.

He then shows how the Jews, though their # of ppl none can #, only a remnant will be saved. All believers make up that remnant of believing ppl. He closes by writing See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame." This includes all believers, both of Jewish and Gentile descent.

[FONT=&quot]In Romans 9:13, we read that God loved Jacob but hated Esau. Some people think this means that God actively chose Jacob to go to heaven and Esau to go to hell.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The word hated didn’t have the same meaning to the biblical writer as it does to us. To the biblical writer, you “hated” someone when you chose another person for a position of more favor or honor. For example, in Genesis 29:31, we are told that God saw that Leah was hated by Jacob, so He opened her womb. Yet we have every indication that Jacob was fond of Leah. He loved Rachel more, but he treated Leah with kindness. (Before Jacob died he asked to be buried with Leah.) Luke 14:26 gives another example of the biblical use of the term hated. Jesus said that we should “hate” our parents for His sake. He certainly wasn’t telling us to dislike them or to wish them evil. He only asked that we regard them as less important than Him, which is completely reasonable given who He is.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]When the apostle Paul declared that God “loved” Jacob but hated Esau, he was affirming that the Lord had chosen Jacob, not Esau, to be the channel through whom He would carry out His covenant promises to Abraham (Genesis 12:3). God’s choosing had nothing to do with election to heaven or hell.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The election of Esau and Jacob as described in Romans 9:13 had to do with privilege and covenant blessing, not with individual salvation. The door of salvation was open for both of these men and to all of their descendants. God offers salvation to all.[/FONT]

https://questions.org/attq/what-did-paul-mean-when-he-wrote-that-god-loved-jacob-and-hated-esau/


Again,salvation is open to all,a call to all who thirst. You cannot shut the door on lost souls. Jacob and Esau is not about their salvation but about blessing and whom God chose to use. The Bible does not teach God has shut the door to half the world and they cannot receive salvation. You are misunderstanding the Scriptures because you are reading them through a Calvinistic lens.

 

[kaylagrl]

Hey, I'm not mad at Calvinsts, I consider them my brothers and sisters in the Lord...

I just think we have some difficult issues here.



But to be fair, there are difficult issues on both sides of this debate.

It certainly is a deep discussion which gets very ugly here Im now seeing. Having never joined in these types of threads till now,I understand why people stay away from the BDF. I usually stick to the news section,the family or ladies section. Never seen such vitriol as in the BDF. While it is a difficult subject the Bible never teaches that God chose some for eternal life and some for eternal death. Scripture is clear that the call is for the whole world and whosoever will. Anything else makes God a liar.

 

[kaylagrl]

Another good article on the subject of Romans...


God never chooses anyone for salvation. He does "choose" or "elect" individuals, or even whole nations, to perform certain tasks or services for Him.As it is never correct to take Scripture out of context (2 Peter 1:20), we will begin with the context of this verse, which begins in Romans 9:7 and continues through to Verse 13.

"Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. (7) That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. (8) For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come and Sarah shall have a son. (9) And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (10) (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth (11) It was said unto her, the elder shall serve the younger. (12) As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." (Romans 9:7-13).​

As we read these verses we find out that God was electing or choosing, by "selective breeding," a nation for Himself. Even though within that nation, not everyone would be looking for the coming of Christ. In other words, He was selectively breeding a people that would be known as the nation of Israel.God exercised His own choice as to who would be the father of the nation. When it came to the promise to Abraham and Sarah, God had promised them a son. Of the children they were to have, God would choose through which one the seed and the promise should come. God promised the seed by Abraham and Sarah in Genesis 15:3,4. Too impatient to wait on God's promise, Abraham went in unto Hagar, who was Sarah's Egyptian handmaid. She conceived and bore a son by the name of Ishmael; but, this was not the promised seed through which the nation of Israel should be born.We find out that later, at a very old age (Abraham being 100 years old and Sarah being 90), that God fulfilled His promise and Isaac was born. (Genesis 21:1-5) We find that God had said:

"But my covenant will I establish with Isaac..." (Genesis 17:21)​

God had selected him. This has nothing to do with the salvation of Isaac!As we continue, we find that Isaac married Rebekah and they had two sons, Jacob and Esau. If you will notice carefully, God had said: "...the elder shall serve the younger."We find this in Genesis 25:23. This was only to establish the birthright, and the ancestral headship, of the nation; and had absolutely nothing to do with Esau's salvation! God had the right to choose through which individual the nation of Israel would be born. But, because of that, it does not mean that Esau could not have been saved. In fact, this leads us to the very next point. Those who say you are chosen to salvation, miss the point of this passage altogether.

"As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." (Romans 9:13).​

Notice carefully, the Bible says "As it is written..." Where do you find this written? Turn with me to Malachi 1:1-3, and this is where it is written. This was not written before Jacob and Esau were born! God did not elect one to be saved; and the other to be lost. He did not say "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." prior to Jacob and Esau's birth. This was said some 1500 years later, after Esau had chosen to practice his evil acts. Then God said, "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." Remember—this was not done before they were born! It was not God's will to hate Esau before he was ever born! He only chose Jacob as the seed through which the Messiah would come; and, as an ancestral head in building the lineage of the nation of Israel.Let us read in Malachi 1:1-3

"The burden of the word of the Lord to Israel by Malachi. (1) I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob. (2) And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains waste for the dragons of the wilderness of the wilderness." (3)​

Notice carefully that God had already done what He had said in Malachi. But, this was done only after Esau had practiced the evil things, and despised his heritage. Most certainly did God do what He said! But God did not say this before Esau was born; nor does it relate to his salvation. God has said to us before we were born:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)​

But after we reject Christ in this life; God hates all workers of iniquity. He most assuredly does! But, then, we are going to find out that God will honor our choice.It is your choice. Whether you accept or reject Christ, God will honor that choice. If you choose to reject Christ, you will spend eternity in the lake of fire. (Matthew 25:41). If you choose to accept Christ, you will be "...passed from death unto life." (John 5:24). But it is your choice, because God is "not willing that any should perish." (2 Peter 3:9).Another thing we might notice here is, that while this portion of Scripture occurs in the New Testament, it was written almost 400 years after Malachi's words. So there are actually about 1500 years between Verse 12 and Verse 13 of Romans, Chapter 9. How important it is to take time and to study these Scriptures pertaining to Esau!


https://heritagebbc.com/bible-quest...did-god-begin-to-hate-esau-as-in-romans-9-13/

 

[Depleted]

Still waiting!!! Third share with no response! Im guessing no one is able to answer it....


Right here is the heart of the issue,once again from Wesley....


.... To this some have answered, "No: It is free only for those whom God hath ordained to life; and they are but a little flock. The greater part of God hath ordained to death; and it is not free for them. Them God hateth; and, therefore, before they were born, decreed they should die eternally. And this he absolutely decreed; because so was his good pleasure; because it was his sovereign will. Accordingly, they are born for this, -- to be destroyed body and soul in hell. And they grow up under the irrevocable curse of God, without any possibility of redemption; for what grace God gives. he gives only for this, to increase, not prevent, their damnation."

5. This that decree of predestination. But methinks I hear one say, "This is not the predestination which I hold: I hold only the election of grace. What I believe is not more than this, -- that God,, before the foundation of the world, did elect a certain number of men to be justified, sanctified, and glorified. Now, all these will be saved, and none else; for the rest of mankind God leaves to themselves: So they follow the imaginations of their own hearts, which are only evil continually, and, waxing worse and worse, are at length justly punished with everlasting destruction."
6. Is this all the predestination which you hold Consider; perhaps this is not all. Do not you believe God ordained them to this very thing" If so, you believe the whole degree; you hold predestination in the full sense which has been above described. But it may be you think you do not. Do not you then believe, God hardens the hearts of them that perish: Do not you believe, he (literally) hardened Pharaoh's heart; and that for this end he raised him up, or created him Why, this amounts to just the same thing. If you believe Pharaoh, or any one man upon earth, was created for this end, -- to be damned, -- you hold all that has been said of predestination. And there is no need you should add, that God seconds his degree, which is supposed unchangeable and irresistible, by hardening the hearts of those vessels of wrath whom that decree had before fitted for destruction.



Here is where those who disagree with Calvinism stop,those who speak of Reformed,this is where we all part ways. Now preacher if this is not what you believe will you kindly and plainly tell me where Wesley is wrong.

I've been able to answer all along, but why bother? You're not going to listen, and then continue to lie about what we believe. And why bother? Because John Wesley has been dead for so long. He's not listening any better than you are.

Don't forget to dust occasionally while waiting, because cobwebs will form if you don't. That's what happens when you say, "I want to learn what you believe" when you really mean, "I want to tell you what you believe and then you have to listen to me when I tell you what you believe is wrong and why I'm right by using the writings of a dead man."

What Wesley said has also been challenged long ago. If you want to learn the other side, (ever), you are free to google that too.

 

[Depleted]

God predestined a plan for salvation before the foundation of the world. That plan was to offer salvation through faith in his Son, Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ paid the ultimate price for our salvation and eternal life . . . His life, His resurrection - all God's plan and purpose predestined for all men; some will accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior - some will not. Those who believe (have faith in) the gospel of Jesus Christ become a part of the called out, the chosen, the elect, the purchased possession, sons of God because of God's grace - Yes - for none of us deserved it.

Now this plan is set forth before all men . . . but God only gives grace, his undeserved favor toward man, to the individual that was predestined, called, chosen; i.e. elect - then that individual can't resist grace and therefore since it can't be resisted you have to do what God says to do, i.e. believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and that God raised him from the dead. THEN God looks down upon others and says, "hmmmm, I don't want you or you or you so I'm not going to give you grace therefore you won't be able to decide whether you believe in my Son or not!!" Is that basically what you believe?

Read Romans 8:29 again. God doesn't predestine plans. He predestined "whoms."

And read John 3:16-21 and John 6:35-40 again. T'ain't no way God is not saving anyone who comes to him. (It's just that no one will come to him without him saving the "whom.")

 

[notuptome]

Since there seems to be no answer to the question I asked three times I'll continue with Wesleys free grace...


21. And "the same Lord over all is rich" in mercy "to all that call upon him:" (Romans 10:12 But you say, "No; he is such only to those for whom Christ died. And those are not all, but only a few, whom God hath chosen out of the world; for he died not for all, but only for those who were 'chosen in him before the foundation of the world.'" (Eph. 1:4.) Flatly contrary to your interpretation of these scriptures, also, is the whole tenor of the New Testament; as are in particular those texts: -- "Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died," (Rom. 14:15,) -- a clear proof that Christ died, not only for those that are saved, but also for them that perish: He is "the Saviour of the world;" (John 4:42 He is "the Lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world;" (John 1:29 "He is the propitiation, not for our sins only, but also for the sins of the whole world;" (1 John 2:2 "He," the living God, "is the Savior of all men;" (1 Timothy 4:10"He gave himself a ransom for all;" (1 Tim. 2:6 "He tasted death for every man." (Heb. 2:9.)
22. If you ask, "Why then are not all men saved" the whole law and the testimony answer, First, Not because of any decree of God; not because it is his pleasure they should die; for, As I live, saith the Lord God," I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth." (Ezek. 18:3, 32.) Whatever be the cause of their perishing, it cannot be his will, if the oracles of God are true; for they declare, "He is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance;" (2 Pet. 3:9"He willeth that all men should be saved." And they, Secondly, declare what is the cause why all men are not saved, namely, that they will not be saved: So our Lord expressly, "Ye will not come unto me that ye may have life." (John 5:40.) "The power of the Lord is present to heal" them, but they will not be healed. "They reject the counsel," the merciful counsel, "of God against themselves," as did their stiff-necked forefathers. And therefore are they without excuse; because God would save them, but they will not be saved: This is the condemnation, "How often would I have gathered you together, and ye would not!" (Matt. 23:37.)

Lu 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

Jesus laments over Israel.

God loves them whom He knows will not love Him. It is truly the goodness of God that leads men to repentance.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[kaylagrl]

I've been able to answer all along, but why bother? You're not going to listen, and then continue to lie about what we believe. And why bother? Because John Wesley has been dead for so long. He's not listening any better than you are.

Don't forget to dust occasionally while waiting, because cobwebs will form if you don't. That's what happens when you say, "I want to learn what you believe" when you really mean, "I want to tell you what you believe and then you have to listen to me when I tell you what you believe is wrong and why I'm right by using the writings of a dead man."

What Wesley said has also been challenged long ago. If you want to learn the other side, (ever), you are free to google that too.

Lynn you have maligned my character and called me everything but a lady. You've charged me with being a liar,you've talked behind my back and made a joke of my posts. If this is is the religion you practice I want none of it. Desertrose asked several times if she was considered a sister/brother in the Lord by Calvinists/Reformed. If the answer is yes,you and preacher have one funny way of showing it.I cannot imagine how you would treat someone who is not Christian coming to your church if you would treat Christians here that oppose what you believe so viciously. I was honest with you,I asked questions,I told you where I was getting "stuck" and to this you call me names,charge me as a liar and worse. No,thank you,I want none of what you believe if this is the way you treat your sisters and brothers in Christ.


ps. I could care less if you answer the question,but since both you and preacher who are so outspoken have avoided answering 3 times my guess is you cannot answer it. Both Wesley and Calvin are dead,no point to be made there. Calvin has also been challenged,and is still being challenged today,no point made their either.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.[John 5:25]

Jesus called in a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out!” The dead man came out,[John 11:43,44]

Now, in John 5:25, Jesus is speaking about being raised to Spiritual life, whereas John 11:43,44 Jesus gave Lazarus back his physical life. In both instances, it was the will of God that gave them their lives. It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.[Romans 9:16]

John 5:25 is speaking of the resurrection of the dead to eternal life - v21 For as the Father raises up the dead, and quickens them; even so the Son quickens whom he will. v24 Surely, surely, I say unto you He that hears my word, (faith comes by hearing) and believes on him that sent me, has everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. (John 3:16-18) For as the Father has life in himself; so has he given to the Son to have life in himself . . . v28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice. v29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 11:15 Lazarus was given back his life to the intent that they may believe. v25) I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believes on me, though he were dead, yet shall he live. v37) And some of them said, Could not this man, which opened the eyes of the blind, have caused that even this man should not have died? v38) Jesus therefore again groaning in himself came to the grave . . . (he groaned in himself because of their unbelief) 40) Jesus said unto her, Didn't I say unto you that if you would believe, you should see the glory of God. 41) Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank you that you have heard me. 42) And I know that you hear me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that you have sent me. . . .

And yes some believed and some did not - you would say that those that believed were bestowed "irresistible" grace in order to believe . . . I would say that those who believed received salvation because of their belief due to God offering the gift of salvation through his grace because we don't deserve it. God offers salvation by his grace because we deserve death - that plan for salvation is available to all people through faith in Jesus Christ - God's plan is not for a select few, Jesus Christ did not die for a select few . . . that plan is available to ALL . . . Jesus Christ died for ALL.

The resurrection to eternal life is available through faith in Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is evidence of God's mercy, compassion, and grace unto all men.

 

[notuptome]

Read Romans 8:29 again. God doesn't predestine plans. He predestined "whoms."

And read John 3:16-21 and John 6:35-40 again. T'ain't no way God is not saving anyone who comes to him. (It's just that no one will come to him without him saving the "whom.")

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

How do we distinguish between Gods foreknowledge and God predestining? If God foreknows all events then they are as certain as if they were predestined.

Is this not where Gods love and mercy enter into the equation? God desires all to be saved yet not all will be saved.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Actually, the doctrine comes from the whole book of Romans. Romans 8-11 is where non-Reformed keep getting stuck. It's that elected, predestined, God loved Jacob but hated Esau parts that causes the problems. It's all still in there, but some would just rather ignore it all and hope it goes away.

Romans 8 - In order to walk by the Spirit one has to be born of the Spirit. In order to be born of the Spirit one has to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. It is not available to be born of the Spirit without first believing and trusting in what one hears from the word of God. "In whom you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom after you also believed, you were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise." NOW - you are called according to his purpose because you love God; NOW - you have salvation through faith which was God's foreknown and predestined plan. NOW - it is predestined that you become conformed to the image of his Son . . . NOW - you are part of the called out, the justified through faith, and you will be glorified.

Jacob and Esau - Romans 9:12 ---- This prophecy is not about these two individual people; Jacob and Esau. This prophecy concerns the countries they fathered: Jacob - Israel; Esau - Edom. Edom would serve Israel, and ultimately, that people (Esau) would serve the Christ (Jacob). The prophecy to Rebecca clearly states that it is regarding "two nations". (Gen. 25:23), i.e. the nations and peoples of Israel and Edom . . . Edom was formed as a nation before Israel making the nation of Edom older than the nation of Israel. (v12) Esau never served Jacob. This statement Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated is quoted from Malachi 1:2,3 - still referring to the two nations. If we take the stance that this verse is referring to Jacob and Esau in a personal sense - it is not true, for Jacob never did exercise any power over Esau. Jacob acknowledged Esau as his lord and was actually afraid of him. "And Jacob sent messengers before him to Esau is brother unto the land of Seir, the country of Edom. And he commanded them, saying, Thus shall you speak unto my lord Esau: Your servant Jacob says, I have sojourned with Laban and stayed there until now: and i have oxen, and asses, flocks, and menservants, and women servants: and I have sent to tell my lord, that i may find grace (favor) in your sight. . . . v7) Then Jacob was greatly afraid and distressed . ." Genesis 32:4,5,7

There seems to be nothing to ignore . . . just a little understanding of the OT.

 

[preacher4truth]

I'm not seeing the fact that Satan blinding the intellect of unbelievers lest they believe is such a big issue or somehow perhaps contradictory. I don't see it as conflicting with the fact man is in a lost state and incapable. Certainly he is fully aware of the state of the lost according to Christ and Scripture, but we shouldn't be naìve as to his nature and rebellion toward God and His creatures and expect anything less than this, as if somehow he will now be kind toward humans and/or give up.

But being incapable and lost is not the only indictment upon the world outside of Christ: They are unable to come to God without His drawing; John 6:44,65; They are in the kingdom of darkness, and need to be delivered; Colossians 1:13. Satan is the wicked spirit who is at work in the children of disobedience; Ephesians 2:2 -- and get this -- we too were of that same state prior to Christ; Ephesians 2:3, thus Satan works upon all the lost, to blind their intellects lest they see the glory of the Gospel of Christ.

Do I understand all this fully? Not at all. This is just what Scripture says, and we happen to believe Scripture even when at times it doesn't seem logical to our human minds.

Furthermore it is not contrary to the wicked nature of Satan to afflict the lost, or attempt to prevent them from the power of the Gospel. In fact Christ warned us of this in the parable of the soils; Matthew 13:19. We are warned again in 2 Corinthians 4:4, and we should not, because this epistle is to professing believers, feel that it's only directed towards those who we think are outside of Christ as though those within a church are immune and assumed to be converted. These too could have their minds blinded - how glorious is the true Gospel to believers individually? Is it dull, non-glorious, flat, uninteresting? Each person had better examine themselves here.

I see no dilemma in all of this, it is simply a fact of the nature of that wicked spirit Satan. Furthermore as one here has suggested, 2 Corinthians 4:4 does not imply that people would be capable of seeing the light of the Glory of the Gospel of Christ if he were not blinding their minds. That is a presumption, it's a good question, but in light of other Scriptures, of which are many, we see the impossibility of man to come to Christ without God, Scriptures that do not include Satan as a reason for this inability.

We would be foolish and presumptuous to think that Satan would simply give up his efforts to destroy mankind. He is at work nonetheless, but that is, IMO enough discussion about him for a while.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Read Romans 8:29 again. God doesn't predestine plans. He predestined "whoms."

And read John 3:16-21 and John 6:35-40 again. T'ain't no way God is not saving anyone who comes to him. (It's just that no one will come to him without him saving the "whom.")

Okay, I'll look at the verse as a whole: "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren." Who are the "whom" he did foreknow that would be conformed to the image of his Son? - ONLY those that believe in his Son and ONLY those that believe in his Son are predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son.

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believes on him is not condemned; but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come unto the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that does evil hates the light, neither comes to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that does truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest that they are worked in God. . . . . One that does the truth, i.e. believes in the only begotten Son, comes to the light for his deeds are being exercised, produced by God. God loved the "world" . . . . "whosoever" are the individuals in that world.

Who are the ones given to Jesus by the Father? Those that believe in the only begotten Son of God, our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. . . . "and he that believes on me shall never thirst" because those that believe drink from the fountain of living waters.