Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)

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valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
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"Vain" means without cause or purpose. Your definition above was no different to mine. To believe in vain does not mean you never believed. It means that you believed to no cause or purpose.
and thus that you were NEVER saved,

If I shout across from one mountain top to someone standing at the peak of another mountain top (and this person does not hear me), then it means I shouted in vain (to no cause or purpose, for nothing). Does that mean I didn't shout? No, ofcourse not. I certainly shouted. It was just in vain.
true, and to believe in vain means I have only believed outwardly and therefore it has all been in vain. I need to believe from the heart.

Theerefore to believe in vain is when one believes but yet holds not onto the things taught. That is to believe in vain (to no cause or purpose, for nothing).
Such a person has believed outwardly (as a cult member does) but not from the heart

This is backed up by a myriad of scriptures showing the risks of falling away from the faith.
Yes it is possible for nominal Christians to fall from 'the faith', the outward teaching of the church. But no true Christian will fall from the faith. Rather the true Christian falls INTO grace and is promised his Saviour will restore him,

Which by the way you twist as well.
I don't accuse you you of twisting Scripture, but you have a sad lack of understanding Scripture, as you have constantly shown
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
113
Irony - a literary technique, originally used in Greek tragedy, by which the full significance of a character's words or actions are clear to the audience or reader although unknown to the character.


Matthew 9:29
[FONT=&quot]Then touched he their eyes, saying, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]According to your faith be it unto you[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,132
13,143
113
58
"Vain" means without cause or purpose. Your definition above was no different to mine. To believe in vain does not mean you never believed. It means that you believed to no cause or purpose.
What is the cause or purpose? In 1 Corinthians 15:13, we read - But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; 14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. In this hypothetical situation, they believed, yet to no cause or effect if Christ has not been raised (but Christ has been raised).

In the case of those who fail to hold fast to the word which Paul preached to them, belief failed to take root and become firmly established, which explains why the person did not hold fast to the word which Paul preached. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of genuine or consummated belief resulting in salvation."

See John 2:23-25 (where their "belief" is clearly superficial in nature); John 8:31-59 (where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin [v. 34], indifferent to Jesus’ word [v. 37], children of the devil [v. 44], liars [v. 55], and guilty of setting out to stone the one they have professed to believe in (v. 59).

After Jesus’ teaching we read in 6:60 that "many of his disciples . . . said," ‘This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?’ These are the very so called "disciples" who Jesus says "do not believe" (John 6:64). They also walked with Him no more. They did not continue. If we continue in His word, then we demonstrate that we are TRULY His disciples (John 8:31). *Those who fail to continue in His word demonstrate that they are NOT TRULY His disciples.

If I shout across from one mountain top to someone standing at the peak of another mountain top (and this person does not hear me), then it means I shouted in vain (to no cause or purpose, for nothing). Does that mean I didn't shout? No, ofcourse not. I certainly shouted. It was just in vain.
Just like if I believe in the resurrection, but there is no resurrection, then I believed in vain. That's one scenario. If someone fails to hold fast to the word which Paul preached because saving belief in the gospel was never firmly rooted and established (which explains why they did not hold fast) then faith is in vain.

Theerefore to believe in vain is when one believes but yet holds not onto the things taught. That is to believe in vain (to no cause or purpose, for nothing).
To believe in vain (vs. 2) is when one's belief "falls short of genuine or consummated belief resulting in salvation" (which equates to shallow, temporary belief that has no root and withers away and explains why they did not hold onto the word which Paul preached). That is to believe in vain (to no cause or purpose, for nothing).

This is backed up by a myriad of scriptures showing the risks of falling away from the faith.

Which by the way you twist as well.
I have backed up my argument using scripture. All you did was twist the scriptures in a vain effort to support your false doctrine.
 
Aug 15, 2009
9,745
179
0
What is the cause or purpose? In 1 Corinthians 15:13, we read - But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; 14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. In this hypothetical situation, they believed, yet to no cause or effect if Christ has not been raised (but Christ has been raised).

In the case of those who fail to hold fast to the word which Paul preached to them, belief failed to take root and become firmly established, which explains why the person did not hold fast to the word which Paul preached. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of genuine or consummated belief resulting in salvation."

See John 2:23-25 (where their "belief" is clearly superficial in nature); John 8:31-59 (where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin [v. 34], indifferent to Jesus’ word [v. 37], children of the devil [v. 44], liars [v. 55], and guilty of setting out to stone the one they have professed to believe in (v. 59).

After Jesus’ teaching we read in 6:60 that "many of his disciples . . . said," ‘This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?’ These are the very so called "disciples" who Jesus says "do not believe" (John 6:64). They also walked with Him no more. They did not continue. If we continue in His word, then we demonstrate that we are TRULY His disciples (John 8:31). *Those who fail to continue in His word demonstrate that they are NOT TRULY His disciples.

Just like if I believe in the resurrection, but there is no resurrection, then I believed in vain. That's one scenario. If someone fails to hold fast to the word which Paul preached because saving belief in the gospel was never firmly rooted and established (which explains why they did not hold fast) then faith is in vain.

To believe in vain (vs. 2) is when one's belief "falls short of genuine or consummated belief resulting in salvation" (which equates to shallow, temporary belief that has no root and withers away and explains why they did not hold onto the word which Paul preached). That is to believe in vain (to no cause or purpose, for nothing).

I have backed up my argument using scripture. All you did was twist the scriptures in a vain effort to support your false doctrine.
This post of yours is really something.
So, being the untrusting person that I am, I decided to do a google search on these words, "See John 2:23-25 (where their "belief" is clearly superficial in nature)" & oh my, the results were incriminating, to say the least!


Here's what I found:

37 results (0.81 seconds)
Search Results

Are we justified by works? - Page 7 - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums
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Eph 2:8 and the gift of.... what? - Page 24
bibleforums.org/showthread.php/246192-Eph-2-8-and-the-gift-of-what/page24
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https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/theology/general-christian-topics/.../page2
Feb 10, 2015 - 15 posts - ‎7 authors
See John 2:23-25 (where their "belief" is clearly superficial in nature);. The text says no such thing. You say it because of your doctrine.

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https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/theology/.../37420-what-kind-of-soil-were-you
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bibleforums.org/showthread.php/227618-Once-saved-always-saved/page17
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See John 2:23-25 (where their "belief" is clearly superficial in nature);. It's not clear those were NOT "true believers". Because you approach the ...

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bibleforums.org/showthread.php/235842-OSAS-Question/page10
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See John 2:23-25 (where their "belief" is clearly superficial in nature); Also read John 8:31,40,45-46 (where the Jews who were said to have ...

OSAS Question - Page 19 - Bibleforums.org
bibleforums.org/showthread.php/235842-OSAS-Question/page19
Jun 18, 2012 - 15 posts - ‎3 authors
See John 2:23-25 (where their "belief" is clearly superficial in nature); John 8:31,40,45-46 (where the Jews who were said to have "believed on ...

When A Believer No Longer Believes, Does It Mean They Were Never ...
bibleforums.org/showthread.php/241625-When-A-Believer-No...It.../page14
Sep 27, 2012 - 15 posts - ‎1 author
See John 2:23-25 (where their "belief" is clearly superficial in nature); John 8:31,40,45-46 (where the Jews who were said to have "believed in ...

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May 30, 2015 - 20 posts - ‎4 authors
Also see John 2:23-25 (where their "belief" is clearly superficial in nature). Notice in John 8:31, that Jesus said if you continue in my word, then ...

SAVED BY WORKS - Page 51 - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums
christianchat.com › Christian Chat Forums › Bible Discussion Forum
Mar 20, 2015 - 20 posts - ‎8 authors
See John 2:23-25 (where their "belief" is clearly superficial in nature); John 8:31,40,45-46 (where the Jews who were said to have "believed in ...

Since you've been doing this at least since 2011, I'd guess that some of this post is also plaguarized.

So, you & G777 post the same way..... very interesting
 
Last edited:

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
2,492
517
113
1 Timothy 1[SUP]3 [/SUP]As I urged you when I went into Macedonia—remain in Ephesus that you may charge some that they teach no other doctrine, [SUP]4 [/SUP]nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith, [SUP]6 [/SUP]from which some, having strayed, have turned aside to idle talk, [SUP]7 [/SUP]desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say nor the things which they affirm.

- more evidence of straying from the faith

Word: astocew

Pronounce: as-tokh-eh'-o

Strongs Number: G795

Orig: from a compound of 1 (as a negative particle) and stoichos (an aim); to miss the mark, i.e. (figuratively) deviate from truth:--err, swerve. G1

Use: Verb

Heb Strong:


  1. 1) to deviate from, miss (the mark)

1 Timothy 4
4 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,


868. aphistémi

Strong's Concordance

aphistémi: to lead away, to depart from
Original Word: ἀφίστημι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: aphistémi
Phonetic Spelling: (af-is'-tay-mee)
Short Definition: I lead away, seduce, depart, abstain from
Definition: I make to stand away, draw away, repel, take up a position away from, withdraw from, leave, abstain from.


The Word of God is clear.
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
2,492
517
113
This post of yours is really something.
So, being the untrusting person that I am, I decided to do a google search on these words, "See John 2:23-25 (where their "belief" is clearly superficial in nature)" & oh my, the results were incriminating, to say the least!


Here's what I found:

37 results (0.81 seconds)
Search Results

Are we justified by works? - Page 7 - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums
christianchat.com › Christian Chat Forums › Bible Discussion Forum
Apr 29, 2017 - 5 posts - ‎3 authors
See John 2:23-25 (where their "belief" is clearly superficial in nature); John 8:31-59 (where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" ...

Falling away from the Faith (it's possible) - Page 42 - Christian ...
christianchat.com › Christian Chat Forums › Bible Discussion Forum
7 hours ago - 3 posts - ‎3 authors
See John 2:23-25 (where their "belief" is clearly superficial in nature); John 8:31-59 (where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" ...

Fruitful - produce a crop - not difficult but essential - Page 4 ...
christianchat.com › Christian Chat Forums › Bible Discussion Forum
Apr 5, 2017 - 20 posts - ‎8 authors
See John 2:23-25 (where their "belief" is clearly superficial in nature). Also, in John 8:31, where the Jews who were said to have "believed in ...

Just another OSAS thread - Page 5 - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums
christianchat.com › Christian Chat Forums › Bible Discussion Forum
Mar 25, 2015 - 20 posts - ‎8 authors
See John 2:23-25 (where their "belief" is clearly superficial in nature); John 8:31,40,45-46 (where the Jews who were said to have "believed in ...

Not By Works - Page 140 - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums
christianchat.com › Christian Chat Forums › Bible Discussion Forum
Apr 2, 2017 - 17 posts - ‎4 authors
See John 2:23-25 (where their "belief" is clearly superficial in nature); John 8:31 (where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn ...

John 5:3 and Baptismal Regeneration Refuted - Page 7 - Christian ...
christianchat.com › Christian Chat Forums › Bible Discussion Forum
Sep 15, 2014 - 20 posts - ‎5 authors
See John 2:23-25 (where their "belief" is clearly superficial in nature). Now read on in John 8:31-59 (where the Jews who were said to have ...

Not By Works - Page 140 - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums
christianchat.com › Christian Chat Forums › Bible Discussion Forum
Apr 2, 2017 - 17 posts - ‎4 authors
See John 2:23-25 (where their "belief" is clearly superficial in nature); John 8:31 (where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn ...

Have you believed the false grace message? - Page 29 - Christian ...
christianchat.com › Christian Chat Forums › Bible Discussion Forum
Mar 22, 2017 - 11 posts - ‎7 authors
See John 2:23-25 (where their "belief" is clearly superficial in nature). Now read on in John 8:31-59 (where the Jews who were said to have ...

Question for Believe Only and OSAS Folks - Christian Chat Rooms ...
christianchat.com › Christian Chat Forums › Bible Discussion Forum
Sep 3, 2014 - 20 posts - ‎8 authors
See John 2:23-25 (where their "belief" is clearly superficial in nature); John 8:31,40,45-46 (where the Jews who were said to have "believed in ...

Falling away from the Faith (it's possible) - Page 4 - Christian ...
christianchat.com › Christian Chat Forums › Bible Discussion Forum
May 12, 2017 - 11 posts - ‎5 authors
See John 2:23-25 (where their "belief" is clearly superficial in nature); John 8:31-59 (where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" ...

Unborning Eternal Life - Page 3 - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums
christianchat.com › Christian Chat Forums › Bible Discussion Forum
May 9, 2016 - 7 posts - ‎4 authors
See John 2:23-25 (where their "belief" is clearly superficial in nature); John 8:31,40,45-46 (where the Jews who were said to have "believed in ...

"EIS" OR "DIA" OR "HOTI" - Christian Chat
christianchat.com › Christian Chat Forums › Bible Discussion Forum
May 4, 2017 - 20 posts - ‎7 authors
See John 2:23-25 (where their "belief" is clearly superficial in nature); John 8:31-59 (where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" ...

ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED, HYPER GRACE, ETERNAL SECURITY = FALSE ...
christianchat.com › Christian Chat Forums › Bible Discussion Forum
Dec 28, 2015 - 20 posts - ‎6 authors
See John 2:23-25 (where their "belief" is clearly superficial in nature); John 8:31,40,45-46 (where the Jews who were said to have "believed in ...

Falling away from the Faith (it's possible) - Page 4 - Christian ...
christianchat.com › Christian Chat Forums › Bible Discussion Forum
May 13, 2017 - 15 posts - ‎6 authors
See John 2:23-25 (where their "belief" is clearly superficial in nature); John 8:31-59 (where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" ...

It is possible for a Christian to lose their salvation. - Page 7 ...
christianchat.com › Christian Chat Forums › Bible Discussion Forum
Sep 3, 2014 - 20 posts - ‎7 authors
See John 2:23-25 (where their "belief" is clearly superficial in nature); John 8:31,40,45-46 (where the Jews who were said to have "believed in ...

Not By Works - Page 503 - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums
christianchat.com › Christian Chat Forums › Bible Discussion Forum
5 days ago - 11 posts - ‎6 authors
See John 2:23-25 (where their "belief" is clearly superficial in nature). In John 8:31-59 (where the Jews who were said to have "believed on ...

John 8:31-36 teaches us several critical truths! - Christian Chat ...
christianchat.com › Christian Chat Forums › Bible Discussion Forum
Jan 1, 2017 - 20 posts - ‎7 authors
See John 2:23-25 (where their "belief" is clearly superficial in nature). Now read on in John 8:31-59 (where the Jews who were said to have ...

Not By Works - Page 140 - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums
christianchat.com › Christian Chat Forums › Bible Discussion Forum
Apr 2, 2017 - 20 posts - ‎4 authors
See John 2:23-25 (where their "belief" is clearly superficial in nature); John 8:31 (where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn ...

Eph 2:8 and the gift of.... what? - Page 24
bibleforums.org/showthread.php/246192-Eph-2-8-and-the-gift-of-what/page24
Apr 25, 2013 - 15 posts - ‎1 author
See John 2:23-25 (where their "belief" is clearly superficial in nature); and John 8:31,40,45-46 (where the Jews who were said to have ...

Phinehas and imputed righteousness - Page 4 - Bibleforums.org
bibleforums.org/showthread.php/256949-Phinehas-and-imputed.../page4
Jun 18, 2014 - 14 posts - ‎2 authors
See John 2:23-25 (where their "belief" is clearly superficial in nature); John 8:31,40,45-46 (where the Jews who were said to have "believed in ...

What kind of soil were you? - Christian Discussion Forums | CARM ...
https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/theology/general-christian-topics/.../page2
Feb 10, 2015 - 15 posts - ‎7 authors
See John 2:23-25 (where their "belief" is clearly superficial in nature);. The text says no such thing. You say it because of your doctrine.

What kind of soil were you? - Christian Discussion Forums | CARM ...
https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/theology/.../37420-what-kind-of-soil-were-you
Feb 9, 2015 - 15 posts - ‎8 authors
See John 2:23-25 (where their "belief" is clearly superficial in nature); John 8:31,40,45-46 (where the Jews who were said to have "believed in ...

Christ's Law Obedience - Page 8 - Bible-Discussion.com
forum.bible-discussion.com › Forum › Public Debate Forums › Bible Doctrine
Aug 28, 2016 - 10 posts - ‎5 authors
See John 2:23-25 (where their "belief" is clearly superficial in nature); John 8:31,40,45-46 (where the Jews who were said to have "believed in ...

What is Grace? - Page 4 - Bibleforums.org
bibleforums.org/showthread.php/249368-What-is-Grace/page4
Aug 16, 2013 - 15 posts - ‎3 authors
See John 2:23-25 (where their "belief" is clearly superficial in nature); John 8:31,40,45-46 (where the Jews who were said to have "believed in ...

Once saved, always saved? - Page 17 - Bibleforums.org
bibleforums.org/showthread.php/227618-Once-saved-always-saved/page17
Oct 20, 2011 - 15 posts - ‎2 authors
See John 2:23-25 (where their "belief" is clearly superficial in nature);. It's not clear those were NOT "true believers". Because you approach the ...

OSAS Question - Page 10 - Bibleforums.org
bibleforums.org/showthread.php/235842-OSAS-Question/page10
May 21, 2012 - 15 posts - ‎2 authors
See John 2:23-25 (where their "belief" is clearly superficial in nature); Also read John 8:31,40,45-46 (where the Jews who were said to have ...

OSAS Question - Page 19 - Bibleforums.org
bibleforums.org/showthread.php/235842-OSAS-Question/page19
Jun 18, 2012 - 15 posts - ‎3 authors
See John 2:23-25 (where their "belief" is clearly superficial in nature); John 8:31,40,45-46 (where the Jews who were said to have "believed on ...

When A Believer No Longer Believes, Does It Mean They Were Never ...
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Sep 27, 2012 - 15 posts - ‎1 author
See John 2:23-25 (where their "belief" is clearly superficial in nature); John 8:31,40,45-46 (where the Jews who were said to have "believed in ...

Justified, Sanctified and Made Righteous - Page 7 - Christian Chat ...
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May 30, 2015 - 20 posts - ‎4 authors
Also see John 2:23-25 (where their "belief" is clearly superficial in nature). Notice in John 8:31, that Jesus said if you continue in my word, then ...

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Mar 20, 2015 - 20 posts - ‎8 authors
See John 2:23-25 (where their "belief" is clearly superficial in nature); John 8:31,40,45-46 (where the Jews who were said to have "believed in ...

Since you've been doing this at least since 2011, I'd guess that some of this post is also plaguarized.

So, you & G777 post the same way..... very interesting
Is it possible they are on a payroll? Are you guys?
 
Aug 15, 2009
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They've been gone for hours now.....

I would have said that sooner if I knew it worked that good!
:D
 
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why do once saved always saved believers always say when you bring up apostasy leaving or departing from the faith that they went out from us but they werent of us. well yes sometimes its the case but come ooooon guys you cant fall away from something if you never had it.... if someone has become partakers of the Holy Spirit like it says in hebrews and then fall away you want to say that it was never saved???? how do you partake of the Holy Spirit and not get saved????? im not a theologian but to me it sounds silly just from a logical point of view...... btw im not yet decided on how it works if its osas or not...... just saying my opinion
 

valiant

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Mar 22, 2015
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why do once saved always saved believers always say when you bring up apostasy leaving or departing from the faith that they went out from us but they werent of us.
Because John said it was so in his epistle :)


well yes sometimes its the case but come ooooon guys you cant fall away from something if you never had it....
But you have too ask 'what did they fall way from?' and the answer is, from the outward church.

if someone has become partakers of the Holy Spirit like it says in hebrews and then fall away you want to say that it was never saved????
It actually means 'gone along with the Holy Spirit' which happens to many people who remain unsaved.

how do you partake of the Holy Spirit and not get saved?????
By being convicted and then turning away.

im not a theologian but to me it sounds silly just from a logical point of view
you can 'go along with the Spirit' for a time and then finally reject.

.... btw im not yet decided on how it works if its osas or not...... just saying my opinion
OSAS is a bad way of describing what happens to a Christian. It is too mechanical. What we should say is 'kept by the power of God'.
 
Mar 23, 2016
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Muzungu256 said:
if someone has become partakers of the Holy Spirit like it says in hebrews and then fall away you want to say that it was never saved????
I believe those spoken of in Hebrews 6:4 as having tasted of the heavenly gift and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost are born again.

My understanding of Hebrews 6:6 does not align with those who claim that the ones who fall away are completely cut off and will be thrown into the lake of fire come judgment time.

Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


I believe the verse is saying that if the born again one falls away, he/she cannot be born again a second time (or third, fourth, fifth time). I believe that is what the words to renew them again to repentance mean. The believer is born again only one time.

And as we have seen in the parables in Luke 15, if the believer falls away, the Lord Jesus Christ searches diligently for that lost one; Father watches from afar off waits for His son/daughter to turn back to Him; and the believer is welcomed back with open arms.

Also, 1 John 1 tells us that we confess our sins and He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


Some on this thread have come to the conclusion that there is absolutely no hope, ever, for the believer who falls away. I do not agree.

Again, I believe that our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ goes after and searches for the one who falls away and will bring the believer back to the fold.

And what happens to that believer who is brought back? The believer does not get born again a second time.

A restoration of fellowship? Yes.

Renewed again to repentance (or born again) over and over and over? No.


And what happens if the born again one does not have fellowship restored before he/she passes in this life?

1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire
 
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Chris1975

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Apr 27, 2017
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I believe those spoken of in Hebrews 6:4 as having tasted of the heavenly gift and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost are born again.

My understanding of Hebrews 6:6 does not align with those who claim that the ones who fall away are completely cut off and will be thrown into the lake of fire come judgment time.

Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


I believe the verse is saying that if the born again one falls away, he/she cannot be born again a second time (or third, fourth, fifth time). I believe that is what the words to renew them again to repentance mean. The believer is born again only one time.

And as we have seen in the parables in Luke 15, if the believer falls away, the Lord Jesus Christ searches diligently for that lost one; Father watches from afar off waits for His son/daughter to turn back to Him; and the believer is welcomed back with open arms.

Also, 1 John 1 tells us that we confess our sins and He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


Some on this thread have come to the conclusion that there is absolutely no hope, ever, for the believer who falls away. I do not agree.

Again, I believe that our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ goes after and searches for the one who falls away and will bring the believer back to the fold.

And what happens to that believer who is brought back? The believer does not get born again a second time.

A restoration of fellowship? Yes.

Renewed again to repentance (or born again) over and over and over? No.


And what happens if the born again one does not have fellowship restored before he/she passes in this life?

1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire
This is the scripture below:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, [SUP]5 [/SUP]and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, [SUP]6 [/SUP]if they fall away,[SUP][b][/SUP] to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; [SUP]8 [/SUP]but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.


With all due respect reneweddaybyday - the end of this person is hell (verse 8).

Your interpretation that we are born again only once is agreed. No issue there. But those who fall away from the faith fall into condemnation and judgement.

Can a believer backslide and then come back to the Lord - sure. By God's mercy.
Can a believer, having rejected Christ outright after having believed, come back to the Lord? - not according to the verses in Hebrews.

These ones are twice dead. Jude v12.
 

valiant

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Mar 22, 2015
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1 Timothy 1[SUP]3 [/SUP]As I urged you when I went into Macedonia—remain in Ephesus that you may charge some that they teach no other doctrine, [SUP]4 [/SUP]nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith, [SUP]6 [/SUP]from which some, having strayed, have turned aside to idle talk, [SUP]7 [/SUP]desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say nor the things which they affirm.

- more evidence of straying from the faith
It means having missed the mark. Thus they have not had sincere faith :)

Word: astocew

Pronounce: as-tokh-eh'-o

Strongs Number: G795

Orig: from a compound of 1 (as a negative particle) and stoichos (an aim); to miss the mark, i.e. (figuratively) deviate from truth:--err, swerve. G1

Use: Verb

Heb Strong:


  1. 1) to deviate from, miss (the mark)
thank you for proving it.

1 Timothy 4

4 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
They depart from the faith, in other words from the body of teaching of the church. They were nominal Christians.

868. aphistémi

Strong's Concordance

aphistémi: to lead away, to depart from
Original Word: ἀφίστημι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: aphistémi
Phonetic Spelling: (af-is'-tay-mee)
Short Definition: I lead away, seduce, depart, abstain from
Definition: I make to stand away, draw away, repel, take up a position away from, withdraw from, leave, abstain from.
Many fall away from the faith of the church. But they never knew the Savior



The Word of God is clear.
Yes it is quite clear, 'this is the Father's will Who sent me, that of ALL THAT HE HAS GIVEN ME I should lose NOTHING but should raise them up again at the Last Day' (John 6.30)
 

mailmandan

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OSAS is a bad way of describing what happens to a Christian. It is too mechanical. What we should say is 'kept by the power of God'.
I prefer the phrase, "preservation of the saints." Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.

Jude 1:1 - Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in/kept for Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 1:5 - who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Praise God! :)
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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This is the scripture below:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, [SUP]5 [/SUP]and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, [SUP]6 [/SUP]if they fall away,[SUP][b][/SUP] to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
What is this describing? It is those who have experienced the power of God at work, and have gone along with the Holy Spirit for a time. They have been 'enlightened'. They have experienced the power of the word of God, and the powers of the coming age. And then they turn away. They were 'almost there', but they never reached the goal. They never came to Christ, They like the Pharisees of old have 'blasphemed against the Holy Spirit' for which there is no forgiveness.

Such an experience is possible in revivals. But it is not a saving experience.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; [SUP]8 [/SUP]but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.
And this proves it. They are not good ground, but bad ground.


With all due respect - the end of this person is hell (verse 8).
Because they rejected the Savior in spite of all the Spirit's working.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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This is the scripture below:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, [SUP]5 [/SUP]and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, [SUP]6 [/SUP]if they fall away,[SUP][b][/SUP] to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; [SUP]8 [/SUP]but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

With all due respect reneweddaybyday - the end of this person is hell (verse 8).

Your interpretation that we are born again only once is agreed. No issue there. But those who fall away from the faith fall into condemnation and judgement.

Can a believer backslide and then come back to the Lord - sure. By God's mercy.
Can a believer, having rejected Christ outright after having believed, come back to the Lord? - not according to the verses in Hebrews.
See post #46 - http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/128910-twice-dead-3.html#post2428591

These ones are twice dead. Jude v12.
In verse 12, they are described as spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, uprooted. *THIS IS NOT DESCRIPTIVE OF BELIEVERS, SO THERE IS NO LOSS OF SALVATION HERE.*

A tree being dead to the core as such a tree was utterly incapable of producing good fruit then being uprooted is twice dead.

Notice in Jude 12 that these trees will be "uprooted."

In Matthew 15:13, Jesus said - Every plant which My heavenly Father did not plant shall be "uprooted."


 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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What is this describing? It is those who have experienced the power of God at work, and have gone along with the Holy Spirit for a time. They have been 'enlightened'. They have experienced the power of the word of God, and the powers of the coming age. And then they turn away. They were 'almost there', but they never reached the goal. They never came to Christ, They like the Pharisees of old have 'blasphemed against the Holy Spirit' for which there is no forgiveness.

Such an experience is possible in revivals. But it is not a saving experience.

And this proves it. They are not good ground, but bad ground.

Because they rejected the Savior in spite of all the Spirit's working.
Amen brother! :)

Once enlightened - The word enlightened means to bring to light, to shed light upon or to cause light to shine upon some object, in the sense of illuminating it. Figuratively, photizo means to give guidance or understanding, to make clear or to cause something to be known by revealing clearly. John 1:9 describes Jesus, the "true Light," giving light "to every man"; but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. This light either leads to the complete acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject such light.

Partakers of the Holy Spirit - Partakers describes one who shares with someone else as an associate in an enterprise or undertaking. It speaks of those who are participators in something. Business partner, companion. Participating in. Accomplice in. Comrade. Metochos is used elsewhere in Hebrews in the context of believers (Hebrews 3:14 - "For we have become partakers of Christ") and thus the statement that the readers have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit seems at first glance to be support that true believers are being addressed, yet there are other ministries of the Holy Spirit that precede the indwelling of believers. It is very plausible to envision an individual becoming a sharer in or partaker of the Spirit (and his pre-salvation ministry - convicting of sin, righteousness and judgment to come) by responding for a time to His drawing power intended to lead sinners to Christ. The translation "shared" implies something done in company with others and before salvation all believers shared in the convicting ministry of the Spirit Who drew them to salvation. *Notice that the writer does not state that these individuals were "indwelt by the Holy Spirit" or "sealed by the Holy Spirit" or "possessors of the Spirit's pledge (guarantee) of future inheritance."

Tasted the good word of God - They had tasted in such a way as to give them a distinct impression of its character and quality, yet they still turned away. Inherent in the idea of tasting is the fact that one might or might not decide to accept the thing that is tasted. For example, the same Greek word (geuomai) is used in Matthew 27:34 to say that those crucifying Jesus "offered him wine to drink, mingled with gall; but when he tasted it, he would not drink it." Believers do not simply "taste" into one Spirit but drink into one Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:13).

Fall away - I find it interesting that the term "fall away" or "stumble" was used by the Lord Jesus of His 11 disciples at the time of His arrest. The disciples deserted Jesus as was predicted and Peter obviously denied Jesus three times. They were said to "fall away." Matthew 26:31 - Then Jesus said to them, "You will all fall away because of Me this night, for it is written, 'I WILL STRIKE DOWN THE SHEPHERD, AND THE SHEEP OF THE FLOCK SHALL BE SCATTERED.' 32 "But after I have been raised, I will go ahead of you to Galilee." 33 But Peter said to Him, "Even though all may fall away because of You, I will never fall away." Obviously, this was not a loss of salvation. For a righteous man may fall seven times AND rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity. (Proverbs 24:16)

Hebrews 6:7,8 - For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. In this agricultural metaphor, those who receive final judgment are compared to land that bears no vegetation or useful fruit, but rather bears thorns and thistles. When we recall the other metaphors in Scripture where good fruit is a sign of true spiritual life and fruitfulness is a sign of false believers (for example - Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35), we already have an indication that the author is speaking of people whose most trustworthy evidence of their spiritual condition (the fruit they bear) is negative, suggesting that the author is talking about people who are not genuine Christians. Verse 9 sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (calls them BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. *Thorns and briars and permanent falling away do not accompany salvation.
 
Mar 23, 2016
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Chris1975 said:
With all due respect reneweddaybyday -
Thank you chris1975



Chris1975 said:
the end of this person is hell (verse 8).

Your interpretation that we are born again only once is agreed. No issue there. But those who fall away from the faith fall into condemnation and judgement.

Can a believer backslide and then come back to the Lord - sure. By God's mercy.
In agreement.



Chris1975 said:
Can a believer, having rejected Christ outright after having believed, come back to the Lord? - not according to the verses in Hebrews.
You and I are not in agreement concerning this issue. And I praise/thank Father that the issue will be determined by Him Whose authority is much greater than yours or mine!

Not going to argue with you. Just not worth the peace we have in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Thanks for debating respectfully, though. We should all be respectful toward each other, even if/when we become exasperated ---

Philippians 2:3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.