Sabbath

[gotime]

Maybe just to clarify one more thing, It seems to my understanding or misunderstanding lol, that you think that anyone who does keep the law in any way is working at the law.

Let me clarify, It seems that you are saying that anyone who does not steal is actually working at the law because they actually don't steal.

I dare say this is not what you are saying but it really does look like it to me. SO maybe you can correct me on that.

I think a person who is changed in Christ does not steal and everything that comes with that.

 

[Grandpa]

See its rather simple for me, Once I was a theif/sinner and Christ forgave me and changed me so that now I no longer steal and all that entails. I did not stop because that law said so, I stopped because Christ kept his promise to save me from sin. I am not working at the law thou shalt not kill, I have been transformed by the Grace of Jesus.

That is essentially the Rest we have in Christ. So you do understand it, kind of.

You can apply it to all the laws. We don't work at the law. We are transformed by the Grace of Jesus.

The reason I can use the law to prove that someone is not free in Christ yet is because a person who has been freed from sin no longer walks in sin and the flesh.

I don't know if that helps or not. I hope it does.

I don't understand what you are saying here.

 

[Grandpa]

Maybe just to clarify one more thing, It seems to my understanding or misunderstanding lol, that you think that anyone who does keep the law in any way is working at the law.

Let me clarify, It seems that you are saying that anyone who does not steal is actually working at the law because they actually don't steal.

I dare say this is not what you are saying but it really does look like it to me. SO maybe you can correct me on that.

I think a person who is changed in Christ does not steal and everything that comes with that.

I think you should read Matthew 5 to see my view of those who THINK they keep the law.

I'm not promoting breaking any law. I'm promoting resting in Christ, which is the only way we come close to keeping any laws.

 

[gotime]

That is essentially the Rest we have in Christ. So you do understand it, kind of.

You can apply it to all the laws. We don't work at the law. We are transformed by the Grace of Jesus.


I don't understand what you are saying here.

Ill try to be more clear. All I am saying is that I use the law for the same purpose that it was given. j

It was given to make us guilty and show us what sin is and that we are sinners then lead us to Christ the one who could save us form that condition through forgiveness and transformation through His Grace. (all a gift of course)


The texts for this are as I am sure you know:

Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Rom_10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

We either have come to Christ and begin to naturally do the things that are in the law. or we have not come to Christ and thus continue to break the law as we continue to be slaves to sin.

Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

The Gentiles who came by faith ended up obeying the law by nature. This was the work of God in the new Covenant to write His laws on their hearts.

If we reject Jesus and his promises then we are left with a law we have to attempt to keep in our flesh as slaves to sin, which is impossible.

Maybe a short formulae will help.

Sinner/lawbreaker + Law/Try to keep - Christ =Sinner/lawbreaker = Death.

Sinner/lawbreaker + Law/Leads to Deliverer + Christ = Saint/lawkeeper = Life.

I don't know if that clears it up or makes it worse lol.

But the law will always look the same its not the law that changes but the person and the person only changes if they come to Christ and accept His free Grace.

 

[gotime]

I think you should read Matthew 5 to see my view of those who THINK they keep the law.

I'm not promoting breaking any law. I'm promoting resting in Christ, which is the only way we come close to keeping any laws.

I know these chapters very well, The issue here is I don't identify with those Jesus spoke against.

I am not attempting to keep the law in my own strength without Christ which is what the people Jesus was talking about were doing.

I instead once tried to keep the law, failed big time and then realised the only hope was someone greater than me needs to save me. Thus Jesus who gave me gifts and transformed me and fulfiled and fulfils the law in me by His Spirit that I no longer walk in the flesh like the people Jesus is talking about. but now in the Spirit.

 

[JohnTalmid]

What is of the Spirit is of Messiah. Sin is of the world and the master over the flesh. There is only one who ever kept and still lives according to the law of God, Yahshua Messiah. Does that mean the law is bad or evil in any way? No the law is spiritual and Good for correcting the feet on the path of life. It is no longer a curse to those who trust in the Holy One Messiah. The teachings of Paul have been misunderstood by many of you. He is talking about the circumcision faction who where making converts of the new believers in Messiah. The authority of the day came to the work of bringing in the sheep of Yahshua under their banner. In effect trying to steal God's glory. Don't you see that they do the same thing done to us today. A person comes to the knowledge of the Sabbath day and many through fear of men's teachings lead others to not remember the day to keep it Holy. What a perverse thing to say. We all know to not murder and that it is said to not even hate your brother or you murder him in your heart. So if you honor your Mother honor Wisdom and if you honor your Father practice righteousness. Don't you know that if you keep even a part and fail to follow it all you fail at it all and God is looking for a bride that is perfect. Come fully to Messiah and find rest for your souls. By faith allow your body to come to rest in joy and peace of the Lord of the Sabbath. You already teach on the first of the week to do most of the 10. Why do you forget what happened to the Children of Abraham in the wilderness? They would not enter into the land but died before because of their unbelief.

 

[beta]

isnt sabbath one of the 10 commandments like the 4th one????? of course i would like to keep it but i dont know how.......... im not jewish so i dont know these things if anyone wants to help me out sure........

What makes you think one has to be 'jewish in order to do right and obey God ?

The Sabbath was made at 'Creation - for MAN - long before any mention of 'Jews....
and it is a DAY belonging to GOD/HIS time....He is willing to share with man.

Did JESUS only keep the Sabbath(day) because He was jewish or 'did He always do the things that pleased His Father' ? I don't think that 'nationality entered into 'obedience...see Acts 10v35.
(here just a few points for you to consider and help) God bless !

 

[Grandpa]

I know these chapters very well, The issue here is I don't identify with those Jesus spoke against.

Well that's not good. The Lord Jesus' words are not for you?

I am not attempting to keep the law in my own strength without Christ which is what the people Jesus was talking about were doing.

The saturday sabbath is a law. I know you understand that.

I instead once tried to keep the law, failed big time and then realised the only hope was someone greater than me needs to save me. Thus Jesus who gave me gifts and transformed me and fulfiled and fulfils the law in me by His Spirit that I no longer walk in the flesh like the people Jesus is talking about. but now in the Spirit.

You're almost getting it. You just seem double minded about the sabbath law.

Which fruit of the spirit is 'rest every saturday'? There isn't one. It is your CARNAL understanding kept by your own strength.

 

[Grandpa]

What is of the Spirit is of Messiah. Sin is of the world and the master over the flesh. There is only one who ever kept and still lives according to the law of God, Yahshua Messiah. Does that mean the law is bad or evil in any way? No the law is spiritual and Good for correcting the feet on the path of life. It is no longer a curse to those who trust in the Holy One Messiah. The teachings of Paul have been misunderstood by many of you. He is talking about the circumcision faction who where making converts of the new believers in Messiah. The authority of the day came to the work of bringing in the sheep of Yahshua under their banner. In effect trying to steal God's glory. Don't you see that they do the same thing done to us today. A person comes to the knowledge of the Sabbath day and many through fear of men's teachings lead others to not remember the day to keep it Holy. What a perverse thing to say. We all know to not murder and that it is said to not even hate your brother or you murder him in your heart. So if you honor your Mother honor Wisdom and if you honor your Father practice righteousness. Don't you know that if you keep even a part and fail to follow it all you fail at it all and God is looking for a bride that is perfect. Come fully to Messiah and find rest for your souls. By faith allow your body to come to rest in joy and peace of the Lord of the Sabbath. You already teach on the first of the week to do most of the 10. Why do you forget what happened to the Children of Abraham in the wilderness? They would not enter into the land but died before because of their unbelief.

It doesn't take some special knowledge to find out about the 7th day sabbath. Its part of the law. All you have to do is read it. And by your own carnal understanding try to keep it.

And then twist all your scriptures up so it appears that attempting to keep the law in your own strength and understanding is "spiritual".

Hebrews 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?


Any answers to that?


Acts 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.


Look at that. It was tried right at the beginning of Christianity. What was the answer of the Disciples?


Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

 

[Yahshua]

It doesn't take some special knowledge to find out about the 7th day sabbath. Its part of the law. All you have to do is read it. And by your own carnal understanding try to keep it.

And then twist all your scriptures up so it appears that attempting to keep the law in your own strength and understanding is "spiritual".

Hebrews 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?


Any answers to that?

If I might answer; the people also received the tithing law through the Levitical priesthood...

...but Hebrews explains a few verses earlier that the levites tithed to Melchisedec through the loins of Abraham long before there was even an Israel to give this law to, showing how one such law (the tithing law for example) was in effect as early as Genesis (even though it wasn't officially given until Mt. Sinai), and showing that there's a priesthood that superseded the Levitical priesthood in ministering (Hebrews 7:9-10). This is why Hebrews is specifically writing about the sacrificial laws changing, and not about laws like the Sabbath ending.

Just ask yourselves: How did Abraham, and the levites through Abraham, keep the tithing law before it was given if the law isn't spiritual? Why does scripture say they successfully kept it prior to birth?

Acts 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.


Look at that. It was tried right at the beginning of Christianity. What was the answer of the Disciples?


Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Acts 15:19-29
19 Wherefore my [Peter's] sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollution of idols (law), and from fornication (law), and from things strangled (law), and from blood (law).

21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day (law).

22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren:

23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.

24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,

26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.

28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols (law), and from blood (law), and from things strangled (law), and from fornication (law): from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.


These Laws of God were commanded to gentiles by the council after Christ's resurrection and the giving of the Holy Spirit.

"Good to the Holy [Spirit]"

"Abstain from..."

"keep yourselves..."

Consider this: Why were these laws of God commanded by the NT apostles (who were filled with the Holy Spirit and given the Holy Spirit's approval to command), if it's true that to try to keep the law of God = attempting under one's own strength = being "carnal minded"? Scripture says the carnal mind is hostile to God and wants no part of the law of God at all (Romans 8:7), so the carnal mind wouldn't even make the attempt.

It would be self-defeating for the Holy Spirit to command new convert gentiles to perform these laws. And we can't say that the apostles wanted to show gentiles how the law was "impossible to keep" because there's no indication that such was their purpose from the text, but in fact the opposite is indicated. Again, the Holy Spirit approved of these commandments. Why would the Holy Spirit burden them with any laws at all?

 

[JohnTalmid]

It doesn't take some special knowledge to find out about the 7th day sabbath. Its part of the law. All you have to do is read it. And by your own carnal understanding try to keep it.

And then twist all your scriptures up so it appears that attempting to keep the law in your own strength and understanding is "spiritual".

Hebrews 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?


Any answers to that?


Acts 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.


Look at that. It was tried right at the beginning of Christianity. What was the answer of the Disciples?


Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Grandpa you miss the point. We are under malkizadik and by faith we are saved. Faith is not of the law however righteousness is of the labor from it. Practice is what you are required as your reasonable sacrifice. Not that you can gain perfection through practice because it is by faith you can be credited with righteousness just like Abraham. You follow the law already unless you kill people, don't honor your Mother and Father, hold idols in regard, or eat blood, etc. You have been told for example to not even hate your brother or you have murdered him in your heart. If you fulfill the law by trusting in the Lord of the Sabbath why wouldn't you also rest on the day? No you can't enter because you don't trust. You think his sacrifice wasn't pure or perfect enough to hold you blameless?
There I have answered your question about Malkizadik what do you have to say?

 

[gotime]

Well that's not good. The Lord Jesus' words are not for you That is not what I said, I said I don't identify with the people he spoke against. very different.

The saturday sabbath is a law. I know you understand that. Yes the Sabbath is mentioned in the law as part of the law. But it's origin was before the law of Moses. It comes from creation a work of God before sin entered this world. The law helped me be aware of the Sabbath but it is not the reason I keep it. Gen 2 is the reason I keep it and John 1 and Col 1 and luke 2 etc. Jesus is the real reason I keep the Sabbath. All the law did for me concerning the Sabbath was 1, make me aware of it, and 2, show me I was sinning by not entering it.


You're almost getting it. You just seem double minded about the sabbath law. It is not that I am double minded as you might think. Its that I am consistent.

Which fruit of the spirit is 'rest every saturday'? There isn't one. It is your CARNAL understanding kept by your own strengt. The fruit of the Spirit is in line with all the law it is the very foundation, "Love". The fruit of the spirit is the characteristics of the converted soul not a description of what they do. you can't mix the two. once you grasp that you need to ask yourself one who loves in the Spirit and has all the fruit will they dismiss the work of God? THus Paul makes it clear that the law is not against the fruit:

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.


The law only condemns those who walk in the flesh because those who walk in the flesh do the lusts of the flesh which are sin/breaking the law. Those who walk in the spirit have the character of God and walk after the Spirit thus they no longer walk deliberately in sin/breaking the law.

We discussed this earlier how this very chapter talks about the law:

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

The Fruit of the Spirit primarily is love then joy peace etc. Thus love fulfils the law and thus the law is not against the fruit of the Spirit. But the fruit is characteristics not things done. So one just has to ask themselves what would someone with those characteristics do.

I can't see how once one understood the origin of the Sabbath and its purpose that one would reject the Sabbath day. I can see how one who has that love would not keep it if they don't understand the Sabbath and its purpose. The fruit is not sudden knowledge of all truth But the Spirit will guide into truth and the word of God is truth. So it seems that the real issue now is this: Is the Sabbath a day or not. We both agree there are lessons in in the Sabbath just as there are spiritual depths in all the commandments. Now in all the other nine the depths do not disqualify the plain meaning. I am consistent and do the same for the Sabbath.


QUOTE]
It seems so far that we agree on more than we disagree. I have found this to be the most fruitful conversation we have ever had. I don't think it was you but me in the past that was blocking such conversation. But note that we have come to understand each other better than before. In that understanding we have come to see that we have a lot more in common than first thought. Thanx for your patience.

 

[Grandpa]

If I might answer; the people also received the tithing law through the Levitical priesthood...

...but Hebrews explains a few verses earlier that the levites tithed to Melchisedec through the loins of Abraham long before there was even an Israel to give this law to, showing how one such law (the tithing law for example) was in effect as early as Genesis (even though it wasn't officially given until Mt. Sinai), and showing that there's a priesthood that superseded the Levitical priesthood in ministering (Hebrews 7:9-10). This is why Hebrews is specifically writing about the sacrificial laws changing, and not about laws like the Sabbath ending.

Just ask yourselves: How did Abraham, and the levites through Abraham, keep the tithing law before it was given if the law isn't spiritual? Why does scripture say they successfully kept it prior to birth?





Acts 15:19-29
19 Wherefore my [Peter's] sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollution of idols (law), and from fornication (law), and from things strangled (law), and from blood (law).

21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day (law).

22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren:

23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.

24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,

26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.

28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols (law), and from blood (law), and from things strangled (law), and from fornication (law): from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.


These Laws of God were commanded to gentiles by the council after Christ's resurrection and the giving of the Holy Spirit.

"Good to the Holy [Spirit]"

"Abstain from..."

"keep yourselves..."

Consider this: Why were these laws of God commanded by the NT apostles (who were filled with the Holy Spirit and given the Holy Spirit's approval to command), if it's true that to try to keep the law of God = attempting under one's own strength = being "carnal minded"? Scripture says the carnal mind is hostile to God and wants no part of the law of God at all (Romans 8:7), so the carnal mind wouldn't even make the attempt.

It would be self-defeating for the Holy Spirit to command new convert gentiles to perform these laws. And we can't say that the apostles wanted to show gentiles how the law was "impossible to keep" because there's no indication that such was their purpose from the text, but in fact the opposite is indicated. Again, the Holy Spirit approved of these commandments. Why would the Holy Spirit burden them with any laws at all?

How come resting on saturdays wasn't one of the necessary things?

Acts 15:28-29
[FONT=&quot]28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Interesting that murder is not in there. Or theft. Or even loving God or loving their neighbor.

It was only about abstaining from certain things.


To try to keep the law is carnal minded. To try to abstain from things takes self-control which is a fruit of the spirit.

If you are walking in the spirit it shouldn't be difficult to abstain from carnal things. But if you are trying really hard in your own strength and understanding to keep laws its probably not easy to abstain from other carnal things, since you are already being carnal.


[/FONT]

 

[Grandpa]

Grandpa you miss the point. We are under malkizadik and by faith we are saved. Faith is not of the law however righteousness is of the labor from it. Practice is what you are required as your reasonable sacrifice. Not that you can gain perfection through practice because it is by faith you can be credited with righteousness just like Abraham. You follow the law already unless you kill people, don't honor your Mother and Father, hold idols in regard, or eat blood, etc. You have been told for example to not even hate your brother or you have murdered him in your heart. If you fulfill the law by trusting in the Lord of the Sabbath why wouldn't you also rest on the day? No you can't enter because you don't trust. You think his sacrifice wasn't pure or perfect enough to hold you blameless?
There I have answered your question about Malkizadik what do you have to say?

Most of this wrong. But especially the part I bolded.

 

[preacher4truth]

There are always, ALWAYS those who try to get others under the yoke of bondage of the law. They seem to feel they are clever in their arguments, yet this only shows the depth of their self-deception and attempt to deceive others.

Paul lined them out in Galatians 1:8-10 and gave the bottom line and indictment upon them. Why engage these people in debate????

 

[Grandpa]

Well that's not good. The Lord Jesus' words are not for you That is not what I said, I said I don't identify with the people he spoke against. very different.

The saturday sabbath is a law. I know you understand that. Yes the Sabbath is mentioned in the law as part of the law. But it's origin was before the law of Moses. It comes from creation a work of God before sin entered this world. The law helped me be aware of the Sabbath but it is not the reason I keep it. Gen 2 is the reason I keep it and John 1 and Col 1 and luke 2 etc. Jesus is the real reason I keep the Sabbath. All the law did for me concerning the Sabbath was 1, make me aware of it, and 2, show me I was sinning by not entering it.


You're almost getting it. You just seem double minded about the sabbath law. It is not that I am double minded as you might think. Its that I am consistent.

Which fruit of the spirit is 'rest every saturday'? There isn't one. It is your CARNAL understanding kept by your own strengt. The fruit of the Spirit is in line with all the law it is the very foundation, "Love". The fruit of the spirit is the characteristics of the converted soul not a description of what they do. you can't mix the two. once you grasp that you need to ask yourself one who loves in the Spirit and has all the fruit will they dismiss the work of God? THus Paul makes it clear that the law is not against the fruit:

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.


The law only condemns those who walk in the flesh because those who walk in the flesh do the lusts of the flesh which are sin/breaking the law. Those who walk in the spirit have the character of God and walk after the Spirit thus they no longer walk deliberately in sin/breaking the law.

We discussed this earlier how this very chapter talks about the law:

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

The Fruit of the Spirit primarily is love then joy peace etc. Thus love fulfils the law and thus the law is not against the fruit of the Spirit. But the fruit is characteristics not things done. So one just has to ask themselves what would someone with those characteristics do.

I can't see how once one understood the origin of the Sabbath and its purpose that one would reject the Sabbath day. I can see how one who has that love would not keep it if they don't understand the Sabbath and its purpose. The fruit is not sudden knowledge of all truth But the Spirit will guide into truth and the word of God is truth. So it seems that the real issue now is this: Is the Sabbath a day or not. We both agree there are lessons in in the Sabbath just as there are spiritual depths in all the commandments. Now in all the other nine the depths do not disqualify the plain meaning. I am consistent and do the same for the Sabbath.


QUOTE]
It seems so far that we agree on more than we disagree. I have found this to be the most fruitful conversation we have ever had. I don't think it was you but me in the past that was blocking such conversation. But note that we have come to understand each other better than before. In that understanding we have come to see that we have a lot more in common than first thought. Thanx for your patience.

What if the law against killing only specified on saturday?

If you abstain from killing every day then you wouldn't be breaking a law that said to not kill on saturday.

Same with the saturday sabbath. If we are resting in Christ every day then we aren't breaking any law that says we must rest in Christ every saturday.

If you make it so that you can only rest in Christ on saturdays then what about sundays and wednesdays? Are we allowed to do good on sundays and wednesdays too? Is there anything that is good on saturday that isn't good on sunday or wednesday? (Aside from an opinion about college football vs pro...) How about thursday?

You know what I'm saying.

 

[Grandpa]

There are always, ALWAYS those who try to get others under the yoke of bondage of the law. They seem to feel they are clever in their arguments, yet this only shows the depth of their self-deception and attempt to deceive others.

Paul lined them out in Galatians 1:8-10 and gave the bottom line and indictment upon them. Why engage these people in debate????

I just have hope that these people will question a little bit about what they are being taught and seek the Lord.

Some of them I truthfully find hopeless and don't engage much with them. Unless they have a particularly difficult twisted question. Then it is sort of a challenge.

 

[gotime]

What if the law against killing only specified on saturday?

If you abstain from killing every day then you wouldn't be breaking a law that said to not kill on saturday.

Same with the saturday sabbath. If we are resting in Christ every day then we aren't breaking any law that says we must rest in Christ every saturday.

If you make it so that you can only rest in Christ on saturdays then what about sundays and wednesdays? Are we allowed to do good on sundays and wednesdays too? Is there anything that is good on saturday that isn't good on sunday or wednesday? (Aside from an opinion about college football vs pro...) How about thursday?

You know what I'm saying.

Ok I can see there is a misunderstanding here. I have never said I only rest in Christ on the Sabbath. Resting in Gods salvation and the Sabbath are not the same thing. While there are lessons of salvation that can be learned from the Sabbath they are not one and the same.

The Sabbath is simply a day blessed and made holy By the creator. Resting in Christs salvation is a daily event that takes place every day even the Sabbath.

Remember my reason for keeping the Sabbath is not the law, the law just brought the Sabbath to my attention. The reason for keeping it is that it was made holy and blessed by my Saviour before sin was an issue. So I simply enter that day. I can not make it holy, but He has made it holy. I can not bless it but He has blessed it. So how do I enter? I simply believe that the word is true and that My God made it holy and blessed it. Thus it is by faith in His work that one enters it and rests from his temporal works during the other six days.

For if it was simply a lesson on resting in Jesus salvation then one would have to be consistent and only Rest in Jesus one day a week and then work for their salvation for the other 6. But this is not the case, its actually a memorial of a finished work, which we enter by faith.

maybe this will help as we continue, It seems to me that you view the Sabbath and salvation as the same thing. (please correct me if I am wrong).

I do not, I find them in the bible to be two different things with two different purposes but they are linked. They are linked in that the lessons in the Sabbath apply to salvation also. This is because Gods character revelation in the Sabbath day is the same character revelation in salvation. God did not change when sin came along. He just did what he does, freely gives and provides for the situation.

For example:

The Sabbath day was a gift to humanity. God blessed it first and set it apart as holy in honour of his finished work of creating the heavens and the earth and us.

The Sabbath day then reveals to us that God is loving and selfless. He made the earth for us and them made us to enjoy the earth and then asks us to rest in his creative works that were finished from the foundation of the earth.

so also in salvation, God took our place and brought forgiveness through Christ, then He gave us gifts by his Spirit and then simply asks us to rest in faith that he has provided again all our salvation needs.

Just as the Sabbath day is a memorial of His character of provision in creation. So Jesus is our memorial of his character of provision in salvation.

In fact salvation is about recreation, "create in me a clean heart oh God and renew a right spirit within me" They are linked because the same God displayed His love in both cases. But they are not the same thing just the same God.

 

[Grandpa]

Ok I can see there is a misunderstanding here. I have never said I only rest in Christ on the Sabbath. Resting in Gods salvation and the Sabbath are not the same thing. While there are lessons of salvation that can be learned from the Sabbath they are not one and the same.

The Sabbath is simply a day blessed and made holy By the creator. Resting in Christs salvation is a daily event that takes place every day even the Sabbath.

Remember my reason for keeping the Sabbath is not the law, the law just brought the Sabbath to my attention. The reason for keeping it is that it was made holy and blessed by my Saviour before sin was an issue. So I simply enter that day. I can not make it holy, but He has made it holy. I can not bless it but He has blessed it. So how do I enter? I simply believe that the word is true and that My God made it holy and blessed it. Thus it is by faith in His work that one enters it and rests from his temporal works during the other six days.

For if it was simply a lesson on resting in Jesus salvation then one would have to be consistent and only Rest in Jesus one day a week and then work for their salvation for the other 6. But this is not the case, its actually a memorial of a finished work, which we enter by faith.

maybe this will help as we continue, It seems to me that you view the Sabbath and salvation as the same thing. (please correct me if I am wrong).

I do not, I find them in the bible to be two different things with two different purposes but they are linked. They are linked in that the lessons in the Sabbath apply to salvation also. This is because Gods character revelation in the Sabbath day is the same character revelation in salvation. God did not change when sin came along. He just did what he does, freely gives and provides for the situation.

For example:

The Sabbath day was a gift to humanity. God blessed it first and set it apart as holy in honour of his finished work of creating the heavens and the earth and us.

The Sabbath day then reveals to us that God is loving and selfless. He made the earth for us and them made us to enjoy the earth and then asks us to rest in his creative works that were finished from the foundation of the earth.

so also in salvation, God took our place and brought forgiveness through Christ, then He gave us gifts by his Spirit and then simply asks us to rest in faith that he has provided again all our salvation needs.

Just as the Sabbath day is a memorial of His character of provision in creation. So Jesus is our memorial of his character of provision in salvation.

In fact salvation is about recreation, "create in me a clean heart oh God and renew a right spirit within me" They are linked because the same God displayed His love in both cases. But they are not the same thing just the same God.

So all the law is spiritual EXCEPT the saturday sabbath. The requirement to rest on saturdays spiritual meaning is to rest on saturdays...???

We must read different bibles.

Genesis 2:2-3
[FONT=&quot]2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Hebrews 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.


Hebrews 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Galatians 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Exodus 20:9-11
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Hebrews 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.[/FONT]

 

[Grace777x70]

I believe it all boils down to this - If people want to observe a day as they like - they are free in Christ to do so. They are also free to esteem every day alike too in the Lord

When someone says - you must follow the Sabbath day as in the law of Moses and make Friday night to Saturday as your day where you do no work - ( or whatever else they impose upon themselves ) - If you don't do this Sabbath day keeping - then you are sinning and not obeying God.

These types are Judaizers and no matter how they try to pretty it up with the "keeping of commandments" and to "show your love for God" words - we need to run from them as fast as we can.

For they are distorting the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ and it is a perversion of the gospel message of Christ. For Christ Himself is our true Sabbath rest.