Does Anyone Here Teach The Following?

[preacher4truth]

What I was meaning to say if it came off differently is - we are to be loyal to Jesus (the person), and not to the doctrines first of Jesus, and we are not to fight a fight of right versus wrong but to stand on His word in respect and gentleness with others as He draws all men unto Himself, casting aside our emotions and only acting upon the commission of God thru the intuition of our spirit. After re-reading my post I saw where I had said be loyal to His Word but not His doctrine, skipping the explanation more completely there, so I apologize if I was unclear.

Fair enough. When you worded it the first time I quoted you correctly. Then you say you didn't say that. Instead of making it appear I was falsely accusing you then, you should have cleared it up on your part instead of making another look like they've misspoke and misrepresented you. Maybe just say "I misspoke, sorry, what I meant was..."

 

[preacher4truth]

It all depends on proper definitions, but in some point of view I can be "teaching" it, or at least, believing it.

I don't believe God creates people to send them to hell, but the fact that He passes over some and saves others is a solemn and hard truth for finite minds. But those who end up in hell have a literal hatred for God, they would hate and abhor the Kingdom of God, righteousness, His people, all of it. The lost would be miserable in heaven, so the proper perspective is important on that.

As far as the contrite seeking forgiveness I am reminded of Luke 18:13. The only reason a person would be truly contrite over his sin and seeking God for genuine forgiveness would be due to the operation of God. God will not despise a contrite heart; Psalm 51:17 (yes, I know this verse isn't speaking of conversion but it applies) and Christ will not cast out any who come to Him; John 6:37. I also believe this reflects the persons drawn to Christ in Matthew 11:25-30.

To be totally honest here too many times Calvinists make salvation appear impossible for any person. Instead we should preach the Gospel plainly and simply and trust His elect to be saved though they won't have their theology down and will make some inaccurate statements concerning their conversion experience. Note 2 Timothy 2:8-10.

Thank God we don't have to have a theological degree to be saved from our sins, just true belief in the work of Christ and the repentance which He grants.

 

[Muzungu256]

those sound like something a calvinist would have to face.................. the question is put forth in the wrong way!!!!!! because tim conway i know him he says if anyone seeks with a contrite heart God will hear......... the problem isnt that but if i know calvinist teachings its because the fleshly man will not even want to seek God............ with contrite heart or otherwise so i think thats a false dichotamy how do you type that word LOL.

 

[preacher4truth]

isnt that but if i know calvinist teachings its because the fleshly man will not even want to seek God............ with contrite heart or otherwise

It's a Biblical teaching.

 

[Muzungu256]

It's a Biblical teaching.

i think this is a problem............ there are many ways to interpret biblical truth some come to arminian conclusion some to calvinist some to somewhere in between......... and some like me who dont even care which one is right.............

 

[trofimus]

I don't believe God creates people to send them to hell, but the fact that He passes over some and saves others is a solemn and hard truth for finite minds. But those who end up in hell have a literal hatred for God, they would hate and abhor the Kingdom of God, righteousness, His people, all of it. The lost would be miserable in heaven, so the proper perspective is important on that.

As far as the contrite seeking forgiveness I am reminded of Luke 18:13. The only reason a person would be truly contrite over his sin and seeking God for genuine forgiveness would be due to the operation of God. God will not despise a contrite heart; Psalm 51:17 (yes, I know this verse isn't speaking of conversion but it applies) and Christ will not cast out any who come to Him; John 6:37. I also believe this reflects the persons drawn to Christ in Matthew 11:25-30.

To be totally honest here too many times Calvinists make salvation appear impossible for any person. Instead we should preach the Gospel plainly and simply and trust His elect to be saved though they won't have their theology down and will make some inaccurate statements concerning their conversion experience. Note 2 Timothy 2:8-10.

Thank God we don't have to have a theological degree to be saved from our sins, just true belief in the work of Christ and the repentance which He grants.

It depends what level we are looking at it from.

I see the Universe as the best possible world God selected from the infinite number of possible worlds. And this best world needed to have some people who will not believe and will not be saved. So if God created such world, He also created all in it, that means also these people not to be saved i.e. to end in hell.

But it all so depends on definitions... are they "created" or just born naturally? Are they destined to hell by being forced to end there? No. Etc.

 

[preacher4truth]

It depends what level we are looking at it from.

I see the Universe at the best possible world God selected form the infinite number of possible worlds. And this best world needed to have some people who will not believe and will not be saved. So if God created such world, He also created all in it, that means also these people not to be saved i.e. to end in hell.

But it all so depends on definitions... are they "created" or just born naturally? Are they destined to hell by being forced to end there? No. Etc.

Well, I don't lean towards Molinism. (not saying you are, but that is basically part of the teachings of Molinism)

I don't see God as choosing between billions of scenarios, but by one Divine perfect act creating this world, being perfect in His nature and doings at all times. IOW He knew perfectly what He was doing and did so without having to pick a plan out of infinite options. I was reading something along these lines in a book that discussed this very issue and rejected it altogether as invalid according to the nature of God and His attributes. But anyhow, that's a long story.

Yes, the scenarios are hard to define, but have given what I believe to be a biblical response to the questions in the OP in the post you quoted.

The framing of the accusations in the OP were designed IMO to malign the Reformed and also reflect a misunderstanding of Biblical truth, a limited knowledge of Biblical doctrine, and a limited understanding of the fallen nature and sinfulness of man &c. The latter question was IMO on a more emotional plea level, yet, I do not see any person in such a case being rejected by Christ.

Do you see a person in such a case being rejected by Christ? I think getting to the bottom line here is appropriate at this time, otherwise we are talking past one another, and out of respect I do not wish to do so with you brother.

 

[preacher4truth]

i think this is a problem............ there are many ways to interpret biblical truth some come to arminian conclusion some to calvinist some to somewhere in between......... and some like me who dont even care which one is right.............

There is no problem other than that you disagree with the Bible on this point, and that is the only problem.

Some come to Biblical truth and then are called Calvinists. No man in the flesh seeks God - that is Biblical.

 

[trofimus]

He knew perfectly what He was doing and did so without having to pick a plan out of infinite options.

If we believe that God knows also what will happen next (like you know where a ball will land if you throw it in a specific direction and with a specific strength etc), we then believe that He is not just "living in the moment and doing His best in the moment" but that He is also considering the results of all His actions.

If we want to call everything from the beginning to the end before the end happens, I think the word "plan" is the best we have.

And because the possibilities and their combinations are endless, there is an infinite number of possible plans

Do you see a person in such a case being rejected by Christ? I think getting to the bottom line here is appropriate at this time, otherwise we are talking past one another, and out of respect I do not wish to do so with you brother.

This also depends on the context. Somebody can have as good heart as possible, but without being born again, he will be rejected by Christ... Because it is not a good heart what saves us.

 

[ForthAngel]

Now, if the question is "Will God turn anyone away" then easy answer. Of course not!

This is the accusation basically. The assumption is that people seek God of their own volition and that reformed theology teaches that God says no to them once they do. They are wrong on both accounts. They know they are wrong on both accounts if they want to be honest with themselves. The bible teaches that none seek after God, which we believe, they don't. The bible teaches that God saves us, we believe that, they don't. Of course they will say they believe that, but add to it human works. And when you point out that it's not by human effort or will, they lose it and accuse God of being unfair and unjust. The bible teaches that no one deserves salvation, we believe that, they don't.

One thing I realized lately that never really occurred to me before is that what Arminians/synergists believe is a reversal of what scripture actually teaches. Everything is backwards. God is lessened and man is elevated.

 

[ForthAngel]

It depends what level we are looking at it from.

I see the Universe as the best possible world God selected from the infinite number of possible worlds. And this best world needed to have some people who will not believe and will not be saved. So if God created such world, He also created all in it, that means also these people not to be saved i.e. to end in hell.

But it all so depends on definitions... are they "created" or just born naturally? Are they destined to hell by being forced to end there? No. Etc.

Hey trofimus. I know you probably don't like hearing this, but that is Molinism. It limits God to human will the same way Arminianism does. It's also a philosophical concept more than biblical doctrine.

 

[preacher4truth]

If we believe that God knows also what will happen next (like you know where a ball will land if you throw it in a specific direction and with a specific strength etc), we then believe that He is not just "living in the moment and doing His best in the moment" but that He is also considering the results of all His actions.

If we want to call everything from the beginning to the end before the end happens, I think the word "plan" is the best we have.

And because the possibilities and their combinations are endless, there is an infinite number of possible plans

No sir, sorry, but the above leads to Open Theism and is Molinistic. We all need to define our beliefs more concisely, these are fine points but I believe you are in a little error here. Please reconsider after some time studying this out some more otherwise you're just going to be bordering on OT and Molinism.

This also depends on the context. Somebody can have as good heart as possible, but without being born again, he will be rejected by Christ... Because it is not a good heart what saves us.

I am not sure where you are getting the good heart equation from or that somehow a good heart saves us. It wasn't in anything I stated, and you're missing the point entirely. Yes, we must be born again, but that isn't what we're talking about technically, so you're talking past me here bro.

Please re-read my post where I gave my explanation - all I stated was that basically a person seeking forgiveness of God with a contrite heart will not be rejected by Christ. I didn't state they had a good heart, that a good heart saves or anything of the kind. My point, I thought, was clear. Then I asked directly if you believe a person can be truly seeking forgiveness from God out of a contrite heart and be rejected. You haven't answered the question.

 

[Muzungu256]

There is no problem other than that you disagree with the Bible on this point, and that is the only problem.

Some come to Biblical truth and then are called Calvinists. No man in the flesh seeks God - that is Biblical.

i didnt say i disagree with you............. but a little humbleness goes a long way i can try to overstand....... i know people from both camps who serve God............ john wesley was anointed by God............ and so was charles spurgeon!!!!!!

 

[preacher4truth]

i didnt say i disagree with you............. but a little humbleness goes a long way i can try to overstand....... i know people from both camps who serve God............ john wesley was anointed by God............ and so was charles spurgeon!!!!!!

Fair enough. Spend more time in the Word and prayer, you'll never regret it. Perhaps study out Wesley some more, there are many myths surrounding his person.

 

[trofimus]

No sir, sorry, but the above leads to Open Theism and is Molinistic. We all need to define our beliefs more concisely, these are fine points but I believe you are in a little error here. Please reconsider after some time studying this out some more otherwise you're just going to be bordering on OT and Molinism.



I am not sure where you are getting the good heart equation from or that somehow a good heart saves us. It wasn't in anything I stated, and you're missing the point entirely. Yes, we must be born again, but that isn't what we're talking about technically, so you're talking past me here bro.

Please re-read my post where I gave my explanation - all I stated was that basically a person seeking forgiveness of God with a contrite heart will not be rejected by Christ. I didn't state they had a good heart, that a good heart saves or anything of the kind. My point, I thought, was clear. Then I asked directly if you believe a person can be truly seeking forgiveness from God out of a contrite heart and be rejected. You haven't answered the question.

Sorry, I am not English native speaker so I have probably problems with longer texts and grasping the precise meaning depending on the specific words choice ets. Its lost for me "in translation".

So I will probably pass the one about a good heart. It still seems to me that you are talking about a good repenting person but without the true faith (which is the gift of God) I cannot see what you are trying to get into.

To the first point about Open Theism and Molinism, I do not see any error in what I said and that God knows all the results of all causes and that He selected the best combination. This combination I called a plan.

If it is [fill any theological name you want] it does not make it wrong

 

[notuptome]

God did not create hell for the souls of men.

Mt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

God created hell for the devil and his angels. If an man will not forsake his sin he will be cast into hell. Man must forsake his sin and cleave to Christ if he is to enter into eternal life in heaven.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Obviously the writer of Hebrews is in error because he did not include the caveat that he must be elect.

The reformation started with Martin Luther. The reformation is a religion that was created to oppose Romanism.

The word of God is doctrine. Anything that is not of the word of God is religion.

Calvin was a prolific writer but he was not writing the divine inspired word of God. He was attempting to write so as to help others comprehend it which many have failed to accomplish. We as believers are required to exercise discernment when reading Calvin and when reading Spurgeon or any other writer.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[trofimus]

The reformation started with Martin Luther. The reformation is a religion that was created to oppose Romanism.

The word of God is doctrine. Anything that is not of the word of God is religion.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The fact that you believe that the word of God is doctrine proves that you have accepted the religion saying that.

 

[preacher4truth]

So I will probably pass the one about a good heart. It still seems to me that you are talking about a good repenting person but without the true faith (which is the gift of God) I cannot see what you are trying to get into.

Sorry that what I've tried to state isn't clear to you I will try to be more clear.

There is no such thing as a good repenting person, we agree on that point.

If a person is seeking God out of a contrite heart and repentance, and is seeking God for forgiveness, that is reflective of an operation of God upon his or her soul. God will never reject this person in such a state, God causes this within man, and God will save the person.

To say that God needed to look at all possibilities and then decide on which one is best doesn't reflect His nature and perfection brother. What you are leaning toward is Molinism and Open Theism. Yes, these are finer points, but the two doctrines are erroneous and do not reflect the true Divine Nature of God.

 

[Grace777x70]

God did not create hell for the souls of men.

Mt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

God created hell for the devil and his angels. If an man will not forsake his sin he will be cast into hell. Man must forsake his sin and cleave to Christ if he is to enter into eternal life in heaven.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Obviously the writer of Hebrews is in error because he did not include the caveat that he must be elect.

The reformation started with Martin Luther. The reformation is a religion that was created to oppose Romanism.

The word of God is doctrine. Anything that is not of the word of God is religion.

Calvin was a prolific writer but he was not writing the divine inspired word of God. He was attempting to write so as to help others comprehend it which many have failed to accomplish. We as believers are required to exercise discernment when reading Calvin and when reading Spurgeon or any other writer.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I "liked" this portion below Roger and it is so true. No one man knows all the truth in any area. Paul says "Him who thinks he knows something - doesn't know it as he ought to." We know in part and we prophesy in part.

Quote:

Calvin was a prolific writer but he was not writing the divine inspired word of God. He was attempting to write so as to help others comprehend it which many have failed to accomplish. We as believers are required to exercise discernment when reading Calvin and when reading Spurgeon or any other writer.

 

[notuptome]

The fact that you believe that the word of God is doctrine proves that you have accepted the religion saying that.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

For the cause of Christ
Roger