Does Anyone Here Teach The Following?

[Meggido]

Patiently waiting for any Reformed to tell us they teach the things in the OP.

Please let the trolls color themselves foolish as witnessed already and just play them and their drama laden posts off. I really want to show how foolish the false accusations are and set the record straight.

So its not OK for people to attack you and your "brothers" or your teachings.

BUT

its perfectly OK for you to attack others, call them names, attack their teachings and do it all with a smile and under the pretense that you have a higher authority allowing you to do it?

 

[notmyown]

like Jason, i hope it's a perception problem.

courtesy of Voddie: The Gospel:

as it is written, “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and whoever believes in Him will not be put to shame.” (Rom 9:33)

"I am laying" <--- God centered

"a stone of stumbling" <---- Christ centered

"a rock of offense" <---- cross centered

"whoever believes in Him will not be put to shame" <---- eschatological implications

it's not primarily about us, folks. It's about God.

 

[Ariel82]

i honestly think bro it comes from both sides or whatever side really, certainly many folks stay out of the arguments, if a person posts much in the bdf, theres a good chance theyve been on both sides, the right and wrong. thats just my opinion and obsevation though. I know in the past, i sometimes didnt really take the time to really see exactly the words another was using, responded to rashly, and then realized later, that i sort of added to what they were actually saying in my response. i try really hard now to see just what they have said, no more, no less.

Sometimes it's an honest mistake...how people respond kind of steers the conversation...either they respond with grace, forgiveness and patience or they lash out defensively.

Either way we have a choice to apologize or lash back out at them.
.it's easier to apologize to the nice folks who display the fruit of walking with the Holy Spirit, but we have to do the right thing and apologize to the others too.

It's a choice on both parts to engage or disengage in behaviors and way of speaking to others.

 

[Meggido]

That's quite ok...I'm just not a fan of bullies.

they are schooled and taught to be bullies. When we were in a reformed baptist church as a kid, my Dad taught things like this... Bully people, mow em down, accuse them, rip them to shreds,all under the pretense of defending the faith.

NO love at all and they cannot love, Because God chose them, it is a one sided relationship.

 

[Ariel82]

I'll try to answer the two bolded questions.

1. So, I am asking, do you teach God creates people to send them to hell?

Really hard to answer that question because God only created two people. The rest of us came along the usual way -- conception. Sooo, were Adam and Eve created to go the hell? I don't think so. I'm pretty sure they went to heaven.

But will God send people to hell? Of course! That is the just punishment we all deserve. I think it's fantastically generous of him not to give all of us what we deserve though. And the way he did that was just too, Jesus propitiated our much deserved wrath from the Lord.

2. Do you teach that if one seeks God out of a contrite heart, and thus seeks forgiveness, that it isn't enough?

Another complicated question. I'm not a teacher, so I don't do lesson plans to teach. On the other hand, if someone asks me, I'll tell what I know.

Now, if the question is "Will God turn anyone away" then easy answer. Of course not! But that's not the question. "If one seeks out God?" Well, if we're going to hit absurd "if" questions, then "If you're driving your car at the speed of light, what happens when you turn on your lights?" That too is absurd for the same reason the "If anyone seeks God" question is absurd. Never gonna happen, so why worry about it? Actually, it's more likely you can drive your car at the speed of light.

And then the final part of the question is "is it enough?" That just leaves me shaking my head, because I don't know what "it" is, since it's already been established the first part of the question doesn't make sense. And I also don't get what "enough" means. Enough as in asking to be forgiven is enough? Enough for what? Is contrite heart supposed to be enough? Enough what? Since I don't know what the asker is asking, I can't answer -- teacher or not.

So are these false allegation? I've got no idea what they're alleging to begin with to determine the truthfulness of the allegation. And, I've got no insight into what is being alleged.

I'm just lost.

Yeah I was wondering what your response would be.

Hard to have a conversation without context.

I think the jist is....

Reformed folks don't teach that God makes people sin and then sends them to hell....that's a strawmen and needs to be put to rest..

Haven't been following the debate, but that seems to the main point of the OP, but I could be misreading his post.

 

[1ofthem]

they are schooled and taught to be bullies. When we were in a reformed baptist church as a kid, my Dad taught things like this... Bully people, mow em down, accuse them, rip them to shreds,all under the pretense of defending the faith.

NO love at all and they cannot love, Because God chose them, it is a one sided relationship.

The sad thing about that is that all that type of behavior goes totally against what Jesus taught.

We know God is no respecter of persons, but some people seems to think he has some kind of double standard for people...

 

[hornetguy]

"If you're driving your car at the speed of light, what happens when you turn on your lights?"

I don't know about the lights, but I bet you get really, really bad gas mileage at that speed.

 

[Ariel82]

That's where it starts to resemble Pelagianism to me.

Yeah and most free willers don't teach that either..,most know that the road is wide that leads to hell. They just think that when God gives them the option to travel the narrow road, they are given the free will to chose to turn down that path of keep walking to hell.

As far as I can tell Reformed folks say people can also choose to keep walking down the road to hell. Only difference is reformed folks say that God doesn't give up and will keep drawing His elect to the narrow road.

strawmen are erected on both sides of the free will versus election debate.

 

[Ariel82]

they are schooled and taught to be bullies. When we were in a reformed baptist church as a kid, my Dad taught things like this... Bully people, mow em down, accuse them, rip them to shreds,all under the pretense of defending the faith.

NO love at all and they cannot love, Because God chose them, it is a one sided relationship.

Now this post is just wrong on too many levels to address....

1. They aren't taught to be bullies by their doctrine. Some folks are just naturally inclined to be abrasive, but God can work with us all where we are at. I know many calm and loving folks who believe in the doctrine of election and predestination.

2. Your Dad was a false teacher from the sound of it or your perception of what he said may be wrong...hard to say, since none of us knows your dad.

3. I have seen everyone on this thread express love at one time or another (admittedly not to me) but I believe it's a false accusation to say they have no love just because you disagree with them.

It's a false strawmen to say that reformed folks are bullies without love or a real relationship with God.

 

[ForthAngel]

LOL...as ya'll can tell I seriously didn't take a lot of time reading his post to me...Totally missed the part where he said I was making Jesus contradict himself by just quoting the Word...

You can't build doctrine on a single verse and say, "Aha! See! Got'cha!"

You didn't consider context. Jesus said there were sheep not of this fold that he must bring in before he made the statement about drawing all people. He was speaking of salvation for all people (not everyone who ever lives), that is to say not only Jews but the Gentiles as well. He said himself he lays his life down for the sheep. One must be born not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. Compare to Jesus saying unless you are born again of the spirit, you cannot see the kingdom of God. Jesus taught that no one can come to him unless the Father draws them. He and the Father are one.

This is what Jesus taught. It's what all of scripture teaches.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

And here is your objection to God:

14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory

 

[Ariel82]

I don't believe God creates people to send them to hell, but the fact that He passes over some and saves others is a solemn and hard truth for finite minds. But those who end up in hell have a literal hatred for God, they would hate and abhor the Kingdom of God, righteousness, His people, all of it. The lost would be miserable in heaven, so the proper perspective is important on that.

As far as the contrite seeking forgiveness I am reminded of Luke 18:13. The only reason a person would be truly contrite over his sin and seeking God for genuine forgiveness would be due to the operation of God. God will not despise a contrite heart; Psalm 51:17 (yes, I know this verse isn't speaking of conversion but it applies) and Christ will not cast out any who come to Him; John 6:37. I also believe this reflects the persons drawn to Christ in Matthew 11:25-30.

To be totally honest here too many times Calvinists make salvation appear impossible for any person. Instead we should preach the Gospel plainly and simply and trust His elect to be saved though they won't have their theology down and will make some inaccurate statements concerning their conversion experience. Note 2 Timothy 2:8-10.

Thank God we don't have to have a theological degree to be saved from our sins, just true belief in the work of Christ and the repentance which He grants.

That would be awesome if folks actually practiced what they preached.

 

[Ariel82]

If someone went around saying you approved of ppl drowning cats, then told ppl you don't approve of drowning cats, and then those same ppl STILL go around saying you approve of drowning cats, wouldn't you be miffed at them?

That's what the OP is about. Ppl continually accuse us of God creating ppl just to send them to hell, and we don't hold to that belief, but ppl STILL accuse us of it.

You know some folks are gonna gossip no matter what you say.

The only question is...who will listen to their lies and who will care enough to speak to you and ask you directly what you believe?

 

[kaylagrl]

I know of one member that believes that and he doesn't post in thread that are discussing Calvinism, he's made his own thread to show what he teaches/believes. She had no clue as to what people were saying or what the Bible teaches, because she believes that she saved herself while have a handle that is a proof text that God saves man. That right there shows you how twisted her thinking is. God causes us to be born again so we can see the kingdom, in that gift of grace, man responded to God in faith and repentance. God's grace is resisted every day by all men in their natural state. It is the regenerating act of God that allows people to be free from sin, so that they can respond to Him. I am not going to post all the Scriptures, because I'm trying to make shorter posts.

It's all based on false assumptions that Calvinism teaches these things, I've heard it both ways, that he did believe that and that he did not, so it really doesn't matter because he does not posted here. I believe there were many things Calvin believe that most Calvinist do not believe today, it's the Biblical Doctrines of Grace that keep Calvinism going. I've never read any of his books so I am not sure how his atonement worked, I know it's for the believers, but I don't know if he also thought that it covers all sins in the world past, present and future or strictly limited to believers.

She never directly responded to any posts that I seen, she would just say unbiblical stuff, that was legalistic which fit her view of salvation, if man saves himself, man must keep himself saved.

Dont know who you are talking about,but those of us who disagree with Calvinism do not believe we save ourselves. We believe the Holy Spirit draws and does the saving. See I could call you out as a liar right there,but I wont and I dont. But to be clear,we dont believe we save ourselves.

 

[kaylagrl]

God did not create hell for the souls of men.

Mt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

God created hell for the devil and his angels. If an man will not forsake his sin he will be cast into hell. Man must forsake his sin and cleave to Christ if he is to enter into eternal life in heaven.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Obviously the writer of Hebrews is in error because he did not include the caveat that he must be elect.

The reformation started with Martin Luther. The reformation is a religion that was created to oppose Romanism.

The word of God is doctrine. Anything that is not of the word of God is religion.

Calvin was a prolific writer but he was not writing the divine inspired word of God. He was attempting to write so as to help others comprehend it which many have failed to accomplish. We as believers are required to exercise discernment when reading Calvin and when reading Spurgeon or any other writer.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Well said and worthy of rep that Im not able to give.

 

[1ofthem]

You can't build doctrine on a single verse and say, "Aha! See! Got'cha!"

You didn't consider context. Jesus said there were sheep not of this fold that he must bring in before he made the statement about drawing all people. He was speaking of salvation for all people (not everyone who ever lives), that is to say not only Jews but the Gentiles as well. He said himself he lays his life down for the sheep. One must be born not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. Compare to Jesus saying unless you are born again of the spirit, you cannot see the kingdom of God. Jesus taught that no one can come to him unless the Father draws them. He and the Father are one.

This is what Jesus taught. It's what all of scripture teaches.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

And here is your objection to God:

14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory

I'm not trying to build a doctrine off one verse and to be honest I'm not trying to build any doctrine. I've got the Bible, the Word of God, so that's the only doctrine I need. The Word of God is sound doctrine so I study it and let the Lord teach me. I don't follow after men or try to create my own doctrine.

As far as context goes, I could sit here and post scripture back and forth to you all day long...but the truth of the matter is you see it how you want to see it and I see it how I see it.

So according to my understanding of many, many verses that I have read... I see that Jesus died for all to give all a chance to be saved and if we say he didn't then we are making his cross of no effect, in my opinion. Now that's what I believe...but you're free to believe what you want.

 

[followjesus]

"The bible teaches that none seek after God, which we believe, they don't. "

matthew 7:7-8 "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:8For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened."

acts 26: 26-27 "From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us."

matthew 6:33 "But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you."

deuteronomy 30:19 "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live"

john 7:16-17 "Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. 17If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself."

Luke 10:39-42 "And she had a sister called Mary, which also sat at Jesus' feet, and heard his word. 40But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me. 41And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things: 42But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her."

 

[kaylagrl]

they are schooled and taught to be bullies. When we were in a reformed baptist church as a kid, my Dad taught things like this... Bully people, mow em down, accuse them, rip them to shreds,all under the pretense of defending the faith.

NO love at all and they cannot love, Because God chose them, it is a one sided relationship.

​Oh wow! Thats just amazing they would teach that attitude to a child!! smh

 

[Muzungu256]

That's where it starts to resemble Pelagianism to me.

i have googled and never found out what pelagianism is so many different definitions whats the right one???????

 

[notuptome]

i have googled and never found out what pelagianism is so many different definitions whats the right one???????

Ask a pelican?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[ForthAngel]

"The bible teaches that none seek after God, which we believe, they don't. "

matthew 7:7-8 "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:8For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened."

acts 26: 26-27 "From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us."

matthew 6:33 "But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you."

deuteronomy 30:19 "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live"

These don't show the state of fallen man. Just because something is commanded, doesn't mean it's possible without God. For instance, we have a law that people were commanded to obey. No one could obey it though could they? Reconcile these verses you posted with Romans 3:9-18, Romans 8:6-8, and all of my previous posts about being born again of the Spirit that Jesus taught. That natural man doesn't seek God.

john 7:16-17 "

Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. 17If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself."

Luke 10:39-42 "And she had a sister called Mary, which also sat at Jesus' feet, and heard his word. 40But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me. 41And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things: 42But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her."

Again, no one chooses God unless God has chosen them. Jesus taught that no one comes to him unless the Father first draws them. If any does his will, it is because of the empowerment of the indwelling Holy Spirit. The carnal mind cannot please God or submit to his law, indeed it cannot.

We can't pit scripture against itself. That is a gross misuse of it.