Does Anyone Here Teach The Following?

[Meggido]

And you build doctrine out of chapters, BOLD MAN.

You offer no reference to the chapter titles but only verses you build upon.

who needs context when you have a pre-text

 

[ForthAngel]

I do not believe this one bit, but yet and your other 3 ring circus brothers love to paint everyone with this brush, if they don't believe as you do.

Why is that?

Oh wait, yeah you are taught that.

I was taught by the bible. I decided to read it. And then read it again. And continue to read it. Where did you learn your obvious man-made philosophy? Obviously not from the bible.

 

[Muzungu256]

thanks for the definition trofimus............... why does romans 10:9 says whosoever calls on the Lord shall be saved........ but Jesus says not all who say Lord Lord.........?

 

[ForthAngel]

Thank you. Hmmm, it is interesting to then consider this Pelagian viewpoint as something the RCC adopted in relation to Mary, for they claimed she was born without the stain of sin (the dogma of the immaculate conception) and also because of that she did not suffer the consequence of sin (death ). Both ex cathedra dogmas of the RCC revolve around that issue. But, back to us... I agree we are in need of the grace of God to be enabled to choose Him. The natural man does not accept the things of God for they are Spiritual, and spiritually discerned. I do believe we are asked to co-operate. God makes our acceptance of Him possible, but He does not force us to accept Him. Maybe I am wrong, but in my own process, being so stubbornly set against God, I did finally come to a place of surrender after having Him reveal Himself to me a few times in a number of different ways, over quite a period of time (fifteen years).

The thing is, Jesus makes the claim that all who are drawn will come to him. So if all are drawn, he is bound by his own words to save everyone.

I also went through the same resistance as you talk about here. Finally I submitted. I see it as the effectual drawing of God. If he draws you, he saves you.

 

[trofimus]

My Bible did not come with a Book of Pelagius

Are you sure?

 

[Muzungu256]

pelagius didnt sound that bad.............. i overstand his viewpoint as well!!!!!!!!!! and augustines!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Meggido]

Not lies. There are many camps within the Reformed Camp. Calvin, Luther and Zwingli and possibly Augustine taught double predestination. There are teachings today within Reformed Camps that hold to double predestination. So no, not lies.

Double predestination (Latin: gemina praedestinatio), or the double decree, is the doctrine that God actively reprobates, or decrees damnation of some, as well as salvation for those whom he has elected. Augustine made statements that on their own seem to teach such a doctrine, but in the context of his other writings it is not clear whether he held it.

Augustine's doctrine of predestination does seem to imply a double predestinarian view.[SUP][15][/SUP] Gottschalk of Orbais taught it more explicitly in the ninth century,[SUP][20][/SUP] and Gregory of Rimini in the fourteenth.[SUP][50][/SUP]

During the Protestant Reformation, John Calvin, Martin Luther, and Huldrych Zwingli also held double predestinarian views.[SUP][51][/SUP][SUP][52][/SUP] John Calvin states: "By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death."[SUP][53][/SUP]

Ever notice with the usual reformers that when you catch them explaining or agreeing with double predestination without really saying it, they scream we are lying about them and have no clue what their doctrine is and then they go after people and then talk out of both sides of their mouth?

A parlor trick of reformers is without any doubt not to get caught talking about double predestination with outsiders. reformers believe that This is knowledge is simply to great for other small minds, they get gnostic about it and claim to have special knowledge about it, which God hides from the non-elect.

I have sat in services as a kid listening to a angry bitter evangelist telling parents not to cry if their baby died and went to hell cuz it was all God's doin and chosin....and ifn yer baby was not elect...it went to hell.

They completely hide this from outsiders because it is an area they have no defense for, other than telling you, all men are bound for hell...just like the usual suspects here are trying to say.

 

[trofimus]

thanks for the definition trofimus............... why does romans 10:9 says whosoever calls on the Lord shall be saved........ but Jesus says not all who say Lord Lord.........?

"As Scripture says, "Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame...For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him."
Rom 10:12

My personal opinion is that Romans 10 in the context says that "anyone" means "of any nation". Not every individual.

Many individuals calls the name of the Lord, but they have no real faith and their heart and deeds are far away from Him. These will not be saved, as Jesus said.

Somebody may have a better explanation, this is what I could think of right now.

 

[preacher4truth]

pelagius didnt sound that bad.............. i overstand his viewpoint as well!!!!!!!!!! and augustines!!!!!!!!!!!

You'd probably fare better and get a more proper picture if you looked at the councils condemnations on his teachings. Ther probably should be a better standard that "didn't sound that bad" for defense of the Gospel maybe?

 

[trofimus]

pelagius didnt sound that bad.............. i overstand his viewpoint as well!!!!!!!!!! and augustines!!!!!!!!!!!

What the Pelagius was "that bad" in is his view of Christ´s death and redemption. He taught Christ only made a good example and so fixed the wrong example of Adam.

 

[preacher4truth]

Are you sure?

Probably has 1 & 2 Sandeman and 1 & 2 Finney in there too. LOL!

 

[Magenta]

The thing is, Jesus makes the claim that all who are drawn will come to him. So if all are drawn, he is bound by his own words to save everyone.

I also went through the same resistance as you talk about here. Finally I submitted. I see it as the effectual drawing of God. If he draws you, he saves you.

Jesus also says He will draw all men to Him (John 12:32).
God desires all to come to repentance that none perish...

At some point, the will of man is involved.
Punishment makes no sense otherwise.

 

[Meggido]

And now you must live in a fear of loosing your salvation...?

Quite the contrary, The spirit bears witness with my Spirit that I am a son of God.
You wont have a clue, so do not bother asking me to explain.

This beats having to wonder all the time, am I elected or not....another thing you all hide quite nicely.

 

[preacher4truth]

The thing is, Jesus makes the claim that all who are drawn will come to him. So if all are drawn, he is bound by his own words to save everyone.

I also went through the same resistance as you talk about here. Finally I submitted. I see it as the effectual drawing of God. If he draws you, he saves you.

Correct, the drawing implies salvation as well. So when people pull John 12:32 on someone to try and throw a wrench into John 6:65 they don't realize they are implying Universalism in the context they are presenting it.

 

[trofimus]

Jesus also says He will draw all men to Him (John 12:32).
God desires all to come to repentance that none perish...

At some point, the will of man is involved.
Punishment makes no sense otherwise.

Are all men coming to Him? If not, He had to have something other in mind when saying this... right?

 

[Meggido]

First of all, as I've made clear a hundred times if I've done it once, is to clarify that I don't really identify as a Calvinist. That is what I'm called by others, as are many of us here. Being a Calvinist also doesn't make someone a disciple of Calvin.

This is like saying being a christian does not make me a disciple of Christ.

Let that one sink in real deep boy and there may be hope for you.

 

[preacher4truth]

Quite the contrary, The spirit bears witness with my Spirit that I am a son of God.
You wont have a clue, so do not bother asking me to explain.

Love the snide way you speak to others here.

This beats having to wonder all the time, am I elected or not....another thing you all hide quite nicely.

What's wrong if you wonder whether or not you're elect? It wouldn't be any more wrong than you wondering if you're even saved which may prove a beneficial exercise.

Do you claim Romans 8:28ff to yourself? Or not?

 

[trofimus]

Quite the contrary, The spirit bears witness with my Spirit that I am a son of God.
You wont have a clue, so do not bother asking me to explain.

This beats having to wonder all the time, am I elected or not....another thing you all hide quite nicely.

If you believe you can loose your salvation and faith, then there is no point in witnessing of your Spirit. All would have it in such a case and regarding future, it means nothing.

If you, on the other hand, believe that the Spirit in you is keeping you to be a son of God, you are believeing in the perseverance of the saints.

I think you have an inconsistent view, a little.

 

[preacher4truth]

This is like saying being a christian does not make me a disciple of Christ.

Let that one sink in real deep boy and there may be hope for you.

More snide remarks. John 3:7 maybe?

 

[Meggido]

I was taught by the bible. I decided to read it. And then read it again. And continue to read it. Where did you learn your obvious man-made philosophy? Obviously not from the bible.

you cannot even stand firm on what YOU believe....so stop acting like you actually have a clue about what I believe....boy