Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)

[PeterJens]

Confusion of division and unity

In the christian evangelical community there are calvanists and armenians.
Broadly they accept each other as believers with varying perspectives on security and election.

A third group have appeared who uniquely are declaring the others unbelievers.
This can be demonstrated when the calvanists unite with others to oppose this new version
of faith. It is clear their desire is to convert others or defeat them as unbelievers without really
declaring theologically why they are unbelievers. The clearest indication of their difference is
future forgiven sin, a type of universalist forgiveness, linked to a new reinterpretation of repentance
and confession (which they hotly dispute, they have the true view).

The whole of the christian world, by the most extreme exponents, are now legalists doomed to
hell holding a false view of faith and salvation. This in itself uniquely demonstrates the division
they openly are declaring and the condemnation and contempt the hold others in.

Not quite pal...the following teach a works based pseudo false gospel...as well as the ability to lose it...

Catholics
Methodists
ALMOST ALL pew jumping charismatics
Lutherans
Anglicans
Free will and General Baptist
J.W.
Mormons
etc......

The MAJORITY of so called Christian religions spew a works based salvation that can be lost....

Faith plus works for salvation is a lie, false, double cursed and has no power........!

NO wonder JESUS said the number would be plenteous that comes before his throne boasting of thier works and self and claim to fame of knowing HIM

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Confusion of division and unity

In the christian evangelical community there are calvanists and armenians.
Broadly they accept each other as believers with varying perspectives on security and election.

Lessons from 1 Corinthians ---

Division comes when we follow men:

1 Corinthians 1:

10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them [which are of the house] of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?


...


1 Corinthians 3:

3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?



Truth / reality from Ephesians ---

Unity comes when we follow the Lord Jesus Christ:

Ephesians 4:

1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,

2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;

3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

4 There is one body,


One body with our Lord Jesus Christ as Head.

All following Him.



Do you think God sees us as Catholics or Methodists or Lutherans or Anglicans?

No! God sees us as one body in the Lord Jesus Christ. And in 1 Corinthians 12 we are told that each member is a member in particular placed specially where God has placed us (1 Cor 12:18). And no member of Christ's body can tell another member of Christ's body that he/she is not needed (1 Cor 12:21).

 

[BillG]

I apologize to the readers at CC & valiant for posting this. I regret my actions. I was ticked off when I wrote it, & spouted off in anger. I will try to do better, with God's help, because God & our readers deserve better. Please forgive me.

How many times did Jesus say forgive and his true meaning?

Not looking for an answer but I think you will know what I am getting at.

Its interesting how we respond at times and why.

I think as you have said above being ticked off and responded in anger, I think that's because we either feel attacked and become defensive but having said that we are passionate about how we interpret scripture and just want the best for people.

I reckon if we were all sat around a table to discuss then actually it would take a whole new dynamic. All we see hear are words.
We see words capitalised and bolded, but if sat round a table we see people, facial expressions and can interact in an calm emotional sense.

I have been as guilty of the same thing you have apologised for and like you I have asked if I have offended anyone please let me know.

In fact I have asked someone on this forum who I have come to trust to keep in check. I trust them enough to tell me I have got it wrong even on posts that we agree doctinaly with each other. And I've been pulled aside a few times.

I would encourage us to engage and discuss, never condemn or say someone is going to hell because doctinaly disagree.

At the end of the day those who have placed a genuine faith in Jesus and have lived their life wanting to be like Jesus then it's up to God to judge. He is perfect in his judgement and sees beyond what we see.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

what would you say happened to soloman?

 

[Chris1975]

what would you say happened to soloman?

He Fell Away.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]For it was so, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned his heart after other gods; and his heart was not loyal to the Lord his God, as was the heart of his father David. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Solomon did evil in the sight of the Lord, and did not fully follow the Lord, as did his father David. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Then Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the abomination of Moab, on the hill that is east of Jerusalem, and for Molech the abomination of the people of Ammon. [SUP]8 [/SUP]And he did likewise for all his foreign wives, who burned incense and sacrificed to their gods. [SUP]9 [/SUP]So the Lord became angry with Solomon, because his heart had turned from the Lord God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice, [SUP]10 [/SUP]and had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods; but he did not keep what the Lord had commanded.

We have those here that will tell you either one of the two following scenarios:

a) Solomon was never really saved (He never really believed) even though God gifted Him with more wisdom that any other person on the face of the earth, in addition to all the other blessings.
b) Solomon was saved and remained saved, even though he did evil in the sight of the Lord at the end of his life. All that matters was that Solomon gave his life to the Lord at some point in the distant past.

These two scenarios are used in defense of the OSAS false doctrine.

Whereas the reality is this..... Solomon fell from the faith.
- Faith means serving only the Lord God of Israel.
- Faith means obedience.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

what would you say happened to soloman?

It is believed that Solomon wrote Ecclesiastes when he was old.

Say what you will of him, Solomon's point is made clear throughout the whole book of Ecclesiastes:


Ecclesiastes 12:

13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.


We can learn much from the life of Solomon and from his writings. Let the question as to the salvation of Solomon rest where it belongs --- God alone shall make that determination.

 

[Chris1975]

It is believed that Solomon wrote Ecclesiastes when he was old.

Say what you will of him, Solomon's point is made clear throughout the whole book of Ecclesiastes:


Ecclesiastes 12:

13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.


We can learn much from the life of Solomon and from his writings. Let the question as to the salvation of Solomon rest where it belongs --- God alone shall make that determination.

The insertion of the scriptures of Solomon doing evil in the sight of the Lord is put into the Word of God for our edification and instruction. These are the last words in the scriptures (that I am aware of) concerning the historical record and how he finished his race.

 

[valiant]

He Fell Away.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]For it was so, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned his heart after other gods; and his heart was not loyal to the Lord his God, as was the heart of his father David. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Solomon did evil in the sight of the Lord, and did not fully follow the Lord, as did his father David. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Then Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the abomination of Moab, on the hill that is east of Jerusalem, and for Molech the abomination of the people of Ammon. [SUP]8 [/SUP]And he did likewise for all his foreign wives, who burned incense and sacrificed to their gods. [SUP]9 [/SUP]So the Lord became angry with Solomon, because his heart had turned from the Lord God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice, [SUP]10 [/SUP]and had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods; but he did not keep what the Lord had commanded.

We have those here that will tell you either one of the two following scenarios:

a) Solomon was never really saved (He never really believed) even though God gifted Him with more wisdom that any other person on the face of the earth, in addition to all the other blessings.
b) Solomon was saved and remained saved, even though he did evil in the sight of the Lord at the end of his life. All that matters was that Solomon gave his life to the Lord at some point in the distant past.

These two scenarios are used in defense of the OSAS false doctrine.

Whereas the reality is this..... Solomon fell from the faith.
- Faith means serving only the Lord God of Israel.
- Faith means obedience.

But the question is whether he repented and turned back to God under God's chastisement?

 

[mailmandan]

But the question is whether he repented and turned back to God under God's chastisement?

When I hear people say "faith means obedience" I become concerned, because that is what I was basically taught in the Roman Catholic church. Faith actually means belief, trust, reliance. Obedience which follows is works. When this gets mixed up, then the end result is salvation by faith + works.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Faith is surrender to God and his will. Only then we are taught to be obedient to his will. Both important but without faith it all is pointless. Without faith obedience becomes works of law. With faith obedience is perfected faith. True faith.

 

[Chris1975]

But the question is whether he repented and turned back to God under God's chastisement?

Well the last recorded acts of Solomon was attempted murder of Jeroboam, who had to flee to Egypt.

Here's a buildup to these events:

[SUP]29 [/SUP]Now it happened at that time, when Jeroboam went out of Jerusalem, that the prophet Ahijah the Shilonite met him on the way; and he had clothed himself with a new garment, and the two were alone in the field. [SUP]30 [/SUP]Then Ahijah took hold of the new garment that was on him, and tore it into twelve pieces. [SUP]31 [/SUP]And he said to Jeroboam, “Take for yourself ten pieces, for thus says the Lord, the God of Israel: ‘Behold, I will tear the kingdom out of the hand of Solomon and will give ten tribes to you [SUP]32 [/SUP](but he shall have one tribe for the sake of My servant David, and for the sake of Jerusalem, the city which I have chosen out of all the tribes of Israel), [SUP]33 [/SUP]because they have[SUP][a][/SUP] forsaken Me, and worshiped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, Chemosh the god of the Moabites, and Milcom the god of the people of Ammon, and have not walked in My ways to do what is right in My eyes and keep My statutes and My judgments, as did his father David. [SUP]34 [/SUP]However I will not take the whole kingdom out of his hand, because I have made him ruler all the days of his life for the sake of My servant David, whom I chose because he kept My commandments and My statutes. [SUP]35 [/SUP]But I will take the kingdom out of his son’s hand and give it to you—ten tribes. [SUP]36 [/SUP]And to his son I will give one tribe, that My servant David may always have a lamp before Me in Jerusalem, the city which I have chosen for Myself, to put My name there. [SUP]37 [/SUP]So I will take you, and you shall reign over all your heart desires, and you shall be king over Israel. [SUP]38 [/SUP]Then it shall be, if you heed all that I command you, walk in My ways, and do what is right in My sight, to keep My statutes and My commandments, as My servant David did, then I will be with you and build for you an enduring house, as I built for David, and will give Israel to you. [SUP]39 [/SUP]And I will afflict the descendants of David because of this, but not forever.’”

[SUP]40 [/SUP]Solomon therefore sought to kill Jeroboam. But Jeroboam arose and fled to Egypt, to Shishak king of Egypt, and was in Egypt until the death of Solomon.

[SUP]41 [/SUP]Now the rest of the acts of Solomon, all that he did, and his wisdom, are they not written in the book of the acts of Solomon? [SUP]42 [/SUP]And the period that Solomon reigned in Jerusalem over all Israel was forty years. [SUP]43 [/SUP]Then Solomon rested with his fathers, and was buried in the City of David his father. And Rehoboam his son reigned in his place.

1 Kings 12
12 And Rehoboam went to Shechem, for all Israel had gone to Shechem to make him king. [SUP]2 [/SUP]So it happened, when Jeroboam the son of Nebat heard it (he was still in Egypt, for he had fled from the presence of King Solomon and had been dwelling in Egypt ), [SUP]3 [/SUP]that they sent and called him.


- so attempted murder
- envy
- kicking against the Lord's judgements

This all happened until his death.

 

[PeterJens]

When I hear people say "faith means obedience" I become concerned, because that is what I was basically taught in the Roman Catholic church. Faith actually means belief, trust, reliance. Obedience which follows is works. When this gets mixed up, then the end result is salvation by faith + works.

I agree if faith is replaced by obedience it ceases to be faith, but is just attempting
to prove yourself a believer by what you do. It is like saying a mother provides clothes
and comfort for their child because that is how you care for a child, so because they do it
they must care. There are mothers who do not care and have to think about caring to care.

Most love and desire to care, and the outflow is the provision of clothes.
One can see the dilemma for those who do not love Jesus or understand Him, obedience
is there only way of connecting. Not a good place to start and probably doomed to failure
and frustration. But if you are born into church and you are expected to believe, then
what else is there to do.

 

[Chris1975]

When I hear people say "faith means obedience" I become concerned, because that is what I was basically taught in the Roman Catholic church. Faith actually means belief, trust, reliance. Obedience which follows is works. When this gets mixed up, then the end result is salvation by faith + works.

Hebrews 3
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? [SUP]19 [/SUP]So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

You don't understand faith because you have compartmentalized it into a "single event". Faith is continual. There is a starting point (agreed) and this continues...........

Or put another way......

If you say you have faith in Jesus, then do you love Jesus? If you love Jesus you will obey His commands.
Faith is obedience. Its continual.

 

[mailmandan]

Faith is surrender to God and his will. Only then we are taught to be obedient to his will. Both important but without faith it all is pointless. Without faith obedience becomes works of law. With faith obedience is perfected faith. True faith.

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. There is a difference between doing God's will to become saved and doing God's will after we have been saved through faith. Indeed, without faith, setting out to be obedient to God is pointless. Without faith, works are simply conjured up through the flesh and become works of the law.

Faith made perfect or complete by works (James 2:22) means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete, just like love in 1 John 4:18. It does not mean that Abraham was finally saved after he offered up Isaac on the altar. Abraham was accounted as righteous because of his faith (Genesis 15:6) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

 

[mailmandan]

Hebrews 3
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? [SUP]19 [/SUP]So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Belief is not defined as obedience/works, yet genuine belief produces obedience/works. They Hebrews did not obey as a manifestation of their unbelief.

You don't understand faith because you have compartmentalized it into a "single event". Faith is continual. There is a starting point (agreed) and this continues...........

Or put another way......

If you say you have faith in Jesus, then do you love Jesus? If you love Jesus you will obey His commands.
Faith is obedience. Its continual.

I understand faith and I also understand that genuine faith continues and is not some shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away. I have faith in Jesus and I love Jesus and I obey His commands, yet not sinless, perfect obedience 100% of the time. I don't claim to be sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, 100% of the time, exactly as Jesus is.

 

[Chris1975]

Belief is not defined as obedience/works, yet genuine belief produces obedience/works. They Hebrews did not obey as a manifestation of their unbelief.

I understand faith and I also understand that genuine faith continues and is not some shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away. I have faith in Jesus and I love Jesus and I obey His commands, yet not sinless, perfect obedience 100% of the time. I don't claim to be sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, 100% of the time, exactly as Jesus is.

Faith is described as action in Hebrews 11. The whole chapter.

You see as a man believes, so he does. Two sides of the same coin.

WE ALL AGREE that works alone gains you no salvation. If anyone here says otherwise, please show me anyone on CC who has posted this because I have not come across anyone posting this yet.

We see many on CC saying ONLY FAITH. And we can also agree to that. HOWEVER the disconnect comes at this point ----- what is Faith?

We ALL AGREE that to have faith is to BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus. Nobody is disputing this fact. But its at this point one camp on CC disengages. For they say THAT'S IT. That is all we have to do. Believe and its all already done.

NO!!! Your journey has only just begun.

James 2 [SUP]14 [/SUP]What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
James 2 [SUP]17 [/SUP]Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2b Show me your faith without your[SUP][d][/SUP] works, and I will show you my faith by my[SUP][e][/SUP] works.
James 2 [SUP]20 [/SUP]But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
James 2 [SUP]24 [/SUP]You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
James 2 [SUP]26 [/SUP]For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Romans 2 [SUP]13 [/SUP](for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;

So what is faith? Faith and Works are two sides of the same coin.

 

[UnderGrace]

Chapter 11 is about Faith which is Believing what God says is True.

All of those examples in that chapter are about people who believed in what God said. A person will act in accordance with their beliefs and what pleases God is to believe in what He says. That is obedience.

And I stated this elsewhere but I am saying it again....

As with most that believe that salvation is discipleship and discipleship is salvation scripture becomes filled with contradictions and it can never be properly understood.

Eternal life is granted when in faith (right belief) brought about by a change of mind (repentance) the person believes they can do nothing to obtain salvation but believes in the full and complete sacrifice of Jesus on the cross for their salvation.

That is the faith that pleases God.

It is a singular event that cannot be undone and God decides when the person has come in the right faith. God does not give eternal life to those trying to save themselves only to those who know they cannot save themselves.

So in that sense you are right without faith there is not salvation because if you do come to Him on His terms you will miss it completely, that is why the way is narrow.

Faith is described as action in Hebrews 11. The whole chapter.

You see as a man believes, so he does. Two sides of the same coin.

WE ALL AGREE that works alone gains you no salvation. If anyone here says otherwise, please show me anyone on CC who has posted this because I have not come across anyone posting this yet.

We see many on CC saying ONLY FAITH. And we can also agree to that. HOWEVER the disconnect comes at this point ----- what is Faith?

We ALL AGREE that to have faith is to BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus. Nobody is disputing this fact. But its at this point one camp on CC disengages. For they say THAT'S IT. That is all we have to do. Believe and its all already done.

NO!!! Your journey has only just begun.

James 2 [SUP]14 [/SUP]What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
James 2 [SUP]17 [/SUP]Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2b Show me your faith without your[SUP][d][/SUP] works, and I will show you my faith by my[SUP][e][/SUP] works.
James 2 [SUP]20 [/SUP]But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
James 2 [SUP]24 [/SUP]You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
James 2 [SUP]26 [/SUP]For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Romans 2 [SUP]13 [/SUP](for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;

So what is faith? Faith and Works are two sides of the same coin.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Faith is surrender to God and his will. Only then we are taught to be obedient to his will. Both important but without faith it all is pointless. Without faith obedience becomes works of law. With faith obedience is perfected faith. True faith.

This is why i was so confused when people called obedience works of law. Because i didnt understand they believed that obedience was the work of God and not human interactions with God. That God is doing all the work and no relationship. A surrender once type of deal and God does all the work. A denial of taking up ones cross daily. A surrender to God allows God to work in us. Otherwise when fall into sin we would say well i guess God took a day off and he didnt work in me today.

No we fell to sin because of evils temptations on the natural fallen nature of the human will. God was there telling you everything to do to resist temptation but we chose to resist the Spirits will and chose sin. Staying close to God helps us hear the Spirit and choose his will more and more.

Thats the continued work of God in us. Thats God able to complete his work in us. By our surrender to him.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. There is a difference between doing God's will to become saved and doing God's will after we have been saved through faith. Indeed, without faith, setting out to be obedient to God is pointless. Without faith, works are simply conjured up through the flesh and become works of the law.

Faith made perfect or complete by works (James 2:22) means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete, just like love in 1 John 4:18. It does not mean that Abraham was finally saved after he offered up Isaac on the altar. Abraham was accounted as righteous because of his faith (Genesis 15:6) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

Yes and? It all starts in faith yes i know. But where you and I disagree is can faith get so weak one moment i life that some walk away. Starting faith is not ending faith. Faith is a faith to faith ordeal. It has its highs and lows. Staying in the Lord helps protect us in the lows.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

By faith we know eternal life is our gift. In faith i can boast of this love and grace knowing the gift is completed and obtainable. All I must do is remain faithful in Jesus.

That faithfulness coincides with obedience. Believe all you wont but dont listen to Jesus and ill call you false.