Does Anyone Here Teach The Following?
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We are just going to keep going in circles. The elect are the beloved referred to at the start of the chapter. Every time you is used after that, it refers back to beloved. The beloved are also the elect. Here is a similar passage explaining that beloved are also the elect:
Romans 9
22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25 As indeed he says in Hosea,
“Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”
26 “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”
This chapter is undeniably about the elect. Also notice here that God is being patient for the sake of the elect (vessels of mercy) that he (God) prepared beforehand for glory to make known (to the vessels of mercy) the riches of his glory. Earlier on in the chapter:
10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
2 Peter 3 in context:
2 Peter 3
3 This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, 2 that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles, 3 knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. 4 They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, 6 and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. 7 But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
8 But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any [refers back to you] should perish, but that all [still referring back to you] should reach repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.
11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, 12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! 13 But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
God is patiently waiting for the church (all of the church, even the unborn individuals) to come to repentance (all of them) not wishing that any of them (the church, future people as well) should perish but will come to repentance (the church, future people/members of the body).
Romans 9
22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25 As indeed he says in Hosea,
“Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”
26 “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”
This chapter is undeniably about the elect. Also notice here that God is being patient for the sake of the elect (vessels of mercy) that he (God) prepared beforehand for glory to make known (to the vessels of mercy) the riches of his glory. Earlier on in the chapter:
10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
2 Peter 3 in context:
2 Peter 3
3 This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, 2 that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles, 3 knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. 4 They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, 6 and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. 7 But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
8 But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any [refers back to you] should perish, but that all [still referring back to you] should reach repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.
11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, 12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! 13 But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
God is patiently waiting for the church (all of the church, even the unborn individuals) to come to repentance (all of them) not wishing that any of them (the church, future people as well) should perish but will come to repentance (the church, future people/members of the body).
I keep trying to get through this thread, and getting side tracked.
So, in a nut shell. Context! Read the verses in context!
"But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim);9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved." Romans 10:8-10
Notice what it says "heart, and heart!"
The word is in your mouth, that is, saying "Jesus is Lord" but for it to have any meaning, it must be IN YOUR HEART. The verse after 10:9, says, "confess with the mouth, but the heart one believes and is justified."
So compare to what Jesus is saying in Matt 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’" Matt 7:21-23
First, this is at the end of the Sermon on the Mount, where Jesus tells us how to live. Not how to mouth words, but to live. So, when someone comes around and says, "Hey, I'm calling you Lord, Jesus, you have to save me. And look, I prophesied in your name, and cast demons out etc, so that proves I'm saved, right??"
What does Jesus reply? Well, that being saved is not about what we say, unless it comes from a changed heart. We can pretend to do good things for God, we can use his name, but it is only the Spirit of God, who causes us to be born from above by the Spirit, that makes that heart change possible, so that we can truly say out of our hearts, "Jesus is MY Lord!"
The fact is, God puts a new heart within us when he saves us by his Spirit.
"And you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts." 2 Cor. 3:3
God changes us into new creatures and that is how our hearts are able to say, "Jesus is Lord." This is so important, because just making a profession of faith, or even performing signs and wonders is not always a sign of the change God does in our hearts, so that we might be born from above of the Spirit. And too often, religious people will mouth the words, "Jesus is Lord!" but the have never been changed in their hearts by the Holy Spirit. That is who Jesus is addressing in Matt 7. Those who have not had the life changing transformation in their hearts by the Spirit, from above.
D
Actually, I'm still with God is sovereign, loving, merciful, and wrathful. So whatever he chooses is right. He simply never told us what he chooses for babies any more than he told us what he chose for our next-door neighbor.
But I do see that whenever someone brings up the baby issue, it's never about babies. It's always about they're own self-righteousness. ("See? I can do better than God, or you, in this case.") And in that, babies are elevated above anyone else.
Have you ever heard anyone ask, "But what about middle-aged, healthy people? What does God do about them?" No, because somehow they just don't matter as much on the self-righteous scale.
But I do see that whenever someone brings up the baby issue, it's never about babies. It's always about they're own self-righteousness. ("See? I can do better than God, or you, in this case.") And in that, babies are elevated above anyone else.
Have you ever heard anyone ask, "But what about middle-aged, healthy people? What does God do about them?" No, because somehow they just don't matter as much on the self-righteous scale.
Actually, I'm still with God is sovereign, loving, merciful, and wrathful. So whatever he chooses is right. He simply never told us what he chooses for babies any more than he told us what he chose for our next-door neighbor.
But I do see that whenever someone brings up the baby issue, it's never about babies. It's always about they're own self-righteousness. ("See? I can do better than God, or you, in this case.") And in that, babies are elevated above anyone else.
Have you ever heard anyone ask, "But what about middle-aged, healthy people? What does God do about them?" No, because somehow they just don't matter as much on the self-righteous scale.
But I do see that whenever someone brings up the baby issue, it's never about babies. It's always about they're own self-righteousness. ("See? I can do better than God, or you, in this case.") And in that, babies are elevated above anyone else.
Have you ever heard anyone ask, "But what about middle-aged, healthy people? What does God do about them?" No, because somehow they just don't matter as much on the self-righteous scale.
K
You definitely lied about me. You said I believed in Free grace or Free will or something. No where ever did I say that. In fact, long before I started reading these threads, I have posted over and over I do not believe in Free will. It simply is not found in the Bible.
As for Free grace, I don't know what your definition is, but this is a heresy coming out of Dallas Theological Seminary. The only reason I know this, is because we were talking about Word Faith and how contrary it was to Scripture in Greek, (and English!) and I mentioned "hypergrace." My professor thought it was Free Grace, so I looked it up, and it was not, although there are some common roots.
Now, maybe other people have different definitions of these terms, but I have been clear I do NOT believe in "free will" it is decidedly unbiblical. As for Free Grace, (and I am not totally certain if you said this, but close, anyway) I do not believe in it, at least from what I googled about it.
In fact, I chose to ignore that post of yours, but I couldn't believe you were putting false words in my mouth. In other words, you lied. And you did not "reply with quotes" you just came up with it out of the blue.
Sorry, I do not wish to hurt anyone, but this is the truth, Kayla.
He proved himself to be one. It really goes without saying:
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...yone-here-teach-following-18.html#post3118768
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...yone-here-teach-following-18.html#post3118768
What is this post on page 10, if not calling someone a Satanist? Oh, and I reported you for this, and quite a few other pages. Apparently, you thought you were on quite a roll on page 10.
It was just unadulterated slander in one post after another. I can quote them, if you want!
And while we are speaking of arrogance and pride, better get a mirror out!
It was just unadulterated slander in one post after another. I can quote them, if you want!
And while we are speaking of arrogance and pride, better get a mirror out!
K
I dont recall saying you believed in free grace, not since you've made it very known that you do not. I do not think you believe in free grace,just the opposite. So where I would have mistaken you for believing in free grace I do not know. But that is not a lie. And you are being very ungracious Angela. Why would I lie about you? In all my time here why would I now just want to lie about you?! Funny,you seem to have the same insult your new buddy has for me. Never had a cross word with either of you but now Im just itching to lie about what you believe. Seriously,you need to get over yourselves.And yes,it is in the Bible.
No,its not heresy,its in the Bible and I dont agree with WOF. The early church fathers believed in free grace years before Calvin ever came along.
We all got it,you dont believe in free grace. And I never lied about you or your beliefs. And you know what if you were THAT offended and you were my friend why didn't you PM me and ask why I was lying about you? Because you never had an issue with me until you and Lynn became Bffs. smh
Link me to the post please so I can see what I said. I dont remember ever accusing you and lying about you believing free grace. Why would I care what you believe Angela?! Much less lie about it?
No I dont believe you dont want to hurt anyone.I believe you want to defend Lynn,who's blasting away at everyone who disagrees with her and hardly needs you for back up. This is so high school "mean girls" it isn't even funny.
D
There is no such thing as embracing God's Sovereignty and human free choice - lolzzzzzzzzzzz.
"But the official statement says so!" OK.
"But the official statement says so!" OK.
But I also believe in free choice. I just happen to know we make the same chose each time -- hid in the dark.
OK... what are "high BP problems"?
If you don't then you do not believe God created man in His Own image... which means you should throw the Book of Genesis in the trash
You are ignorant of what God teaches then... sorry.
(not ignorant as in being stupid... but, ignorant as in not knowing which is your own fault)
Who told you to wear your hair that way... you do, because you have free will and you make decisions about stuff like that showing that you use free will all the time.
Here's a few verses that those that do not believe God gave man free will... must remove from their Bibles and admit that God either lied or allowed lies to be placed in His Word...
Proverbs 16:9
The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.
Joshua 24:15
And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”
John 7:17
If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority.
Revelation 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.
Deuteronomy 30:19-20
I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live, loving the Lord your God, obeying his voice and holding fast to him, for he is your life and length of days, that you may dwell in the land that the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.”
James 1:13-16
Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death. Do not be deceived, my beloved brothers.
Mark 8:34
And calling the crowd to him with his disciples, he said to them, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.
Ezekiel 18:30-32
“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, declares the Lord God. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, lest iniquity be your ruin. Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord God; so turn, and live.”
Isaiah 55:6-7
“Seek the Lord while he may be found; call upon him while he is near; let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the Lord, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
Proverbs 1:29
Because they hated knowledge and did not choose the fear of the Lord
James 4:7
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you
If you don't then you do not believe God created man in His Own image... which means you should throw the Book of Genesis in the trash
You are ignorant of what God teaches then... sorry.
(not ignorant as in being stupid... but, ignorant as in not knowing which is your own fault)
Who told you to wear your hair that way... you do, because you have free will and you make decisions about stuff like that showing that you use free will all the time.
Here's a few verses that those that do not believe God gave man free will... must remove from their Bibles and admit that God either lied or allowed lies to be placed in His Word...
Proverbs 16:9
The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.
Joshua 24:15
And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”
John 7:17
If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority.
Revelation 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.
Deuteronomy 30:19-20
I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live, loving the Lord your God, obeying his voice and holding fast to him, for he is your life and length of days, that you may dwell in the land that the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.”
James 1:13-16
Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death. Do not be deceived, my beloved brothers.
Mark 8:34
And calling the crowd to him with his disciples, he said to them, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.
Ezekiel 18:30-32
“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, declares the Lord God. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, lest iniquity be your ruin. Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord God; so turn, and live.”
Isaiah 55:6-7
“Seek the Lord while he may be found; call upon him while he is near; let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the Lord, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
Proverbs 1:29
Because they hated knowledge and did not choose the fear of the Lord
James 4:7
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you
Well, I finally caught up, and I see the thread is pretty much done.
Just a few final comments to Meggido.
First, I don't remember seeing you post a single Bible verse anywhere. In my books, that means either you do not know the Bible, you are too lazy to post, or you've got nothing to counter the Scriptures posted here.
Second, with regards to your bad feelings towards your father and Reformed doctrine. When I was taking World Religions in seminary, my professor was from a Reformed background. Except, he called his background "HyperCalvinism." He said he was raised in something called superlapsarianism, and it was the far extreme and not orthodox Reformed doctrine at all. His mother was convinced that she could not know if she was part of the elect. She would walk across the room on her knees praying to be part of the elect. He said it was not the true Reformed doctrine.
So perhaps, that is what you were experiencing? In any event, you seem to have not forgiven your father. My father was unsaved and physically abusive to me. But I forgave him and eventually, through my and my husband's witness, God saved him the age of 82, and he died 5 months later.
Which brings me to my last point. Getting back to my seminary professor, he was a missionary to Indonesia, and was sharing the gospel with Muslims and head hunters. Perhaps we all need to recognize how much we fall down in this regard, at least compared to this humble man.
The point being, the course on World Religions was to inform us of what other religions believe and how to best witness to people from these other religions. I asked him "What about those who do not believe?" He said, being Reformed, he left it to God.
In other words, we do witness, we do share the good news with others. But in the end, God is the one who changes hearts and lives, when people here the gospel.
I am concerned about you Meggido. You have a very hard and angry heart, and I truly wonder if you have understood the gospel? Because, when I read all the slander you have done here, it just doesn't seem like I am witnessing a heart changed by the power of God. JMHO, of course!
Just a few final comments to Meggido.
First, I don't remember seeing you post a single Bible verse anywhere. In my books, that means either you do not know the Bible, you are too lazy to post, or you've got nothing to counter the Scriptures posted here.
Second, with regards to your bad feelings towards your father and Reformed doctrine. When I was taking World Religions in seminary, my professor was from a Reformed background. Except, he called his background "HyperCalvinism." He said he was raised in something called superlapsarianism, and it was the far extreme and not orthodox Reformed doctrine at all. His mother was convinced that she could not know if she was part of the elect. She would walk across the room on her knees praying to be part of the elect. He said it was not the true Reformed doctrine.
So perhaps, that is what you were experiencing? In any event, you seem to have not forgiven your father. My father was unsaved and physically abusive to me. But I forgave him and eventually, through my and my husband's witness, God saved him the age of 82, and he died 5 months later.
Which brings me to my last point. Getting back to my seminary professor, he was a missionary to Indonesia, and was sharing the gospel with Muslims and head hunters. Perhaps we all need to recognize how much we fall down in this regard, at least compared to this humble man.
The point being, the course on World Religions was to inform us of what other religions believe and how to best witness to people from these other religions. I asked him "What about those who do not believe?" He said, being Reformed, he left it to God.
In other words, we do witness, we do share the good news with others. But in the end, God is the one who changes hearts and lives, when people here the gospel.
I am concerned about you Meggido. You have a very hard and angry heart, and I truly wonder if you have understood the gospel? Because, when I read all the slander you have done here, it just doesn't seem like I am witnessing a heart changed by the power of God. JMHO, of course!