Does Anyone Here Teach The Following?

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K

kaylagrl

Guest
To fully answer, not that you'll care, no one believes God forces sin upon man, nor does he control us like robots.



Everything was predetermined. God creates calamity at times. From Isaiah 45:

I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things.

Other times things are just a result of our own sin and behavior.



Again, if you weren't such a mindless drone and had the decenty to read what we say, you would understand our position and represent it truthfully. I have no hope that you will however.


Quote "So, when someone gets in to a car wreck and dies or becomes maimed, or someone gets cancer and spends their life savings and dies anyway, when someone gets raped and is scarred for life... are you telling me that God either caused that or had a hand in bringing destruction like this to pass in people's lives???"


Quote "No one believes this."


Quote "
Everything was predetermined. God creates calamity at times. From Isaiah 45:

I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things.

Other times things are just a result of our own sin and behavior."

So that was a yes? God caused those things or.... what are you saying.Can you answer the question more clearly please?
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
Angela

Im not rejecting anything of scripture. But, what I've said is what Paul, and the other apostles have said. Jesus has given us Sonship. Now God is our Father.

We are not sheep. The nation of Israel was and still is.

Not servants which they were and still are to law, but sons in the house of God.

You and preacher are making a big deal about simple truth. It's plainly written in scripture. I'm pointing it out.
If you are not sheep you are goat. Jesus is our Great Shepherd. Jesus shepherds the sheep not goats. Jesus is the Lamb of God given to sacrifice for our sins.

I want to be like a little sheep that follows after Jesus. I want to be carried in His arms. It's the goats that go about running into everything with their heads and being bullies. Oops I hope that doesn't describe folks here on CC.

The sheep are sons by inheritance through grace. Don't view sheep as less than sons.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
Quote "So, when someone gets in to a car wreck and dies or becomes maimed, or someone gets cancer and spends their life savings and dies anyway, when someone gets raped and is scarred for life... are you telling me that God either caused that or had a hand in bringing destruction like this to pass in people's lives???"


Quote "No one believes this."


Quote "
Everything was predetermined. God creates calamity at times. From Isaiah 45:

I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things.

Other times things are just a result of our own sin and behavior."

So that was a yes? God caused those things or.... what are you saying.Can you answer the question more clearly please?
I really think you should learn some better system of quotations, it is such a mess... :)
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
If you are not sheep you are goat. Jesus is our Great Shepherd. Jesus shepherds the sheep not goats. Jesus is the Lamb of God given to sacrifice for our sins.

I want to be like a little sheep that follows after Jesus. I want to be carried in His arms. It's the goats that go about running into everything with their heads and being bullies. Oops I hope that doesn't describe folks here on CC.

The sheep are sons by inheritance through grace. Don't view sheep as less than sons.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Actually, Roger, I would think that the Sons would serve the sheep.

Be blessed today!
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
I got a solution for all the christian beef and doctrine disputes. Lets organize a worldwide christian boxing tournament and see who can throw hands and not just run their mouth? Any time any place lets get it.




Rofl I thought thats what was going on all along!!!
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
I really think you should learn some better system of quotations, it is such a mess... :)

​Oh boy,another criticism?


Rockrz {sorry spelled wrong} asked,


"So, when someone gets in to a car wreck and dies or becomes maimed, or someone gets cancer and spends their life savings and dies anyway, when someone gets raped and is scarred for life... are you telling me that God either caused that or had a hand in bringing destruction like this to pass in people's lives???"


And Forth said,

"No one believes this."


Then Forth said,

"Everything was predetermined. God creates calamity at times. From Isaiah 45:

I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things.

Other times things are just a result of our own sin and behavior."


And I asked for a clarification.


Now that its not messy,care to answer or did you only want to criticize? :)


 
P

popeye

Guest
Me too. If the WoF and charimatic types don't like a passage they simply twist it until it fits their needs.

Ever look into synonyms for charisma? You should, it will be enlightening. It explains the "biblical abracadabra" they practice.
It's actually good you don't evangelize.

It gives you several licenses.

1 you can get as dirty as your own puffed up policeman religious spirit guides you

2 nobody seeing your mean spirited hatred for the body of Christ would want that mess you spew. All you can hope for is a greater number of religious clones.

No man of God is going to deal with Jesus' little ones with such contempt.
 

ForthAngel

Senior Member
Aug 31, 2012
2,171
91
48
Quote "So, when someone gets in to a car wreck and dies or becomes maimed, or someone gets cancer and spends their life savings and dies anyway, when someone gets raped and is scarred for life... are you telling me that God either caused that or had a hand in bringing destruction like this to pass in people's lives???"


Quote "No one believes this."


Quote "
Everything was predetermined. God creates calamity at times. From Isaiah 45:

I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things.

Other times things are just a result of our own sin and behavior."

So that was a yes? God caused those things or.... what are you saying.Can you answer the question more clearly please?
God causes some things to happen that some would consider bad, yeah. He ordered the genocide of wicked nations (men, women, livestock, and yes, even children). Same God on both sides of the bible. He took the lives of Ananias and Sapphira. He consumed Nadab and Abihu with fire. He rained fire on Sodom and Gomorrah. He deludes the reprobates of 2 Thessalonians 2. He gives those in Romans 1 over to their sin. He gave Satan permission to afflict Job and kill his family. He allowed the afflictions Paul and the torture and murder of the fist century church. He allowed the thorn in Paul's flesh.

He disciplines us as well. That can come in the form of physical ailments, catastrophes, a prick on our conscience, and the like.

We also make decisions that lead to things like this because we are sinful people.

It is no surprise to him however, when someone commits a sinful act. He wasn't surprised by Hitler and what he did. He wasn't surprised by the millions of abortions in America. He isn't surprised by a fatal car accident due to a drunk driver. All of these things were already known to him before he created anything. He created everything anyway and said let it be so.

God doesn't just let these things happen without a purpose though. We know from scripture that all things work together for the good of those who love him, who are called according to his purpose. Again, look at Joseph and his brothers. Joseph says "what you intended for evil, God intended for good", therefore, we see man's fallen will being exercised for evil, but God's sovereign will being exercised right along with it, the very same act, for good. The crucifixion itself. The sinful murderous desire of those who crucified Jesus was them exercising their fallen will, but it was also Gods will for the greatest act of mercy by him ever known to mankind. The very same act, evil will of man alongside the good will of God.


I dunno how to be any more clear in my stance on this, so I hope this suffices.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
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It's funny (not ha ha) how we view scriptures differently...

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I makepeace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

I read this as God forms the light, and darkness results. He makes peace but yet evil results.

Isa 45:18 For this is what the LORD says, who created the heavens—he is God, and the one who formed the earth and made it, and he is the one who established it; he didn't create it for chaos, but formed it to be inhabited—"I am the LORD and there is no other.

Isa 45:19 I didn't speak in secret, from somewhere in a land of darkness; I didn't say to Jacob's descendants, 'Seek me in chaos.' I, the LORD, speak truth, declaring what is right.
 

ForthAngel

Senior Member
Aug 31, 2012
2,171
91
48
It's funny (not ha ha) how we view scriptures differently...

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I makepeace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

I read this as God forms the light, and darkness results. He makes peace but yet evil results.


That's not what it says though is it? You've added to it what isn't there.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
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Not really. Have you ever tried to be a peacemaker and it backfires on you?

God our Father is light. Pure Light. No evil, no shadow but pure love.

I don't see Father as less than my own father, and my dad would never do something to cause a disaster in my life.

God takes the bad and works it to our good.
 

ForthAngel

Senior Member
Aug 31, 2012
2,171
91
48
Not really. Have you ever tried to be a peacemaker and it backfires on you?

God our Father is light. Pure Light. No evil, no shadow but pure love.

I don't see Father as less than my own father, and my dad would never do something to cause a disaster in my life.

God takes the bad and works it to our good.
I never said he had any evil or darkness. The better rendering of the verse you posted is adversity or calamity though, not evil per se.

I agree with your last sentence.

Truth is still though, you added to that verse what isn't there.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
56,478
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God causes some things to happen that some would consider bad, yeah. He ordered the genocide of wicked nations (men, women, livestock, and yes, even children). Same God on both sides of the bible. He took the lives of Ananias and Sapphira. He consumed Nadab and Abihu with fire. He rained fire on Sodom and Gomorrah. He deludes the reprobates of 2 Thessalonians 2. He gives those in Romans 1 over to their sin. He gave Satan permission to afflict Job and kill his family. He allowed the afflictions Paul and the torture and murder of the fist century church. He allowed the thorn in Paul's flesh.

He disciplines us as well. That can come in the form of physical ailments, catastrophes, a prick on our conscience, and the like.

We also make decisions that lead to things like this because we are sinful people.

It is no surprise to him however, when someone commits a sinful act. He wasn't surprised by Hitler and what he did. He wasn't surprised by the millions of abortions in America. He isn't surprised by a fatal car accident due to a drunk driver. All of these things were already known to him before he created anything. He created everything anyway and said let it be so.

God doesn't just let these things happen without a purpose though. We know from scripture that all things work together for the good of those who love him, who are called according to his purpose. Again, look at Joseph and his brothers. Joseph says "what you intended for evil, God intended for good", therefore, we see man's fallen will being exercised for evil, but God's sovereign will being exercised right along with it, the very same act, for good. The crucifixion itself. The sinful murderous desire of those who crucified Jesus was them exercising their fallen will, but it was also Gods will for the greatest act of mercy by him ever known to mankind. The very same act, evil will of man alongside the good will of God.


I dunno how to be any more clear in my stance on this, so I hope this suffices.
That was very clear, thank you :)


 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
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My perception is formed by my understanding that God is good, God is light, God is love.

He doesn't make calamity. He doesn't punish us with sickness. He chastises us through Holy Spirits correction upon our heart as He searches us...and exposes fleshly ways and thoughts.

The way we see Him, is the way we will serve Him.
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
God causes some things to happen that some would consider bad, yeah. He ordered the genocide of wicked nations (men, women, livestock, and yes, even children). Same God on both sides of the bible. He took the lives of Ananias and Sapphira. He consumed Nadab and Abihu with fire. He rained fire on Sodom and Gomorrah. He deludes the reprobates of 2 Thessalonians 2. He gives those in Romans 1 over to their sin. He gave Satan permission to afflict Job and kill his family. He allowed the afflictions Paul and the torture and murder of the fist century church. He allowed the thorn in Paul's flesh.

He disciplines us as well. That can come in the form of physical ailments, catastrophes, a prick on our conscience, and the like.

We also make decisions that lead to things like this because we are sinful people.

It is no surprise to him however, when someone commits a sinful act. He wasn't surprised by Hitler and what he did. He wasn't surprised by the millions of abortions in America. He isn't surprised by a fatal car accident due to a drunk driver. All of these things were already known to him before he created anything. He created everything anyway and said let it be so.

God doesn't just let these things happen without a purpose though. We know from scripture that all things work together for the good of those who love him, who are called according to his purpose. Again, look at Joseph and his brothers. Joseph says "what you intended for evil, God intended for good", therefore, we see man's fallen will being exercised for evil, but God's sovereign will being exercised right along with it, the very same act, for good. The crucifixion itself. The sinful murderous desire of those who crucified Jesus was them exercising their fallen will, but it was also Gods will for the greatest act of mercy by him ever known to mankind. The very same act, evil will of man alongside the good will of God.


I dunno how to be any more clear in my stance on this, so I hope this suffices.




Quote "God causes some things to happen that some would consider bad, yeah. He ordered the genocide of wicked nations (men, women, livestock, and yes, even children). Same God on both sides of the bible. He took the lives of Ananias and Sapphira. He consumed Nadab and Abihu with fire. He rained fire on Sodom and Gomorrah. He deludes the reprobates of 2 Thessalonians 2. He gives those in Romans 1 over to their sin. He gave Satan permission to afflict Job and kill his family. He allowed the afflictions Paul and the torture and murder of the fist century church. He allowed the thorn in Paul's flesh."


Ok,one at a time here.Yes, God punished wicked nations,that was because of their own wickedness,that was not something God caused,He only justly punished them

Ananias and Sapphira lied to the Holy Spirit so again,that was their just punishment,not something God caused or created. And the same with the next few examples you gave.All punished for their sin,not caused by God.

In the situation of Job God allowed satan to test Job,so again satan tested Job,God didnt bring the affliction on him,He allowed it. And it all your other examples,yes God allowed these things to happen,we are still susceptible to evil and the attacks of satan,but thats not God causing it to happen.Satan brings evil and disease. My aunt died at the age of 43 to cancer,I know that was because we live in a fallen world full of disease. I never thought for a moment God caused her sickness and she was a faithful Christian,so it wasn't living a life apart from God that did it.



Quote "
It is no surprise to him however, when someone commits a sinful act. He wasn't surprised by Hitler and what he did. He wasn't surprised by the millions of abortions in America. He isn't surprised by a fatal car accident due to a drunk driver. All of these things were already known to him before he created anything. He created everything anyway and said let it be so. "

Yes,ok, there is Gods perfect will and His permissive will. God allowing Hitler,and having foreknowledge doesn't mean He caused it to happen. Allowing and causing are two different things.


Quote "
God doesn't just let these things happen without a purpose though. We know from scripture that all things work together for the good of those who love him, who are called according to his purpose. "

Yes we agree on that. All things work together for His good.










 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
If you are not sheep you are goat. Jesus is our Great Shepherd. Jesus shepherds the sheep not goats. Jesus is the Lamb of God given to sacrifice for our sins.

I want to be like a little sheep that follows after Jesus. I want to be carried in His arms. It's the goats that go about running into everything with their heads and being bullies. Oops I hope that doesn't describe folks here on CC.

The sheep are sons by inheritance through grace. Don't view sheep as less than sons.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Am trying to go offline since I have so much to do today..but this occurred to me and I want to correct something that you think I am saying.

Just because you want to be as a sheep, doesn't in my view, mean that you aren't a Son whether or not one even believes this or not. If we are born from above...we are the children of God.

I don't view any of you here as less...am only stating what I know to be truth. What Yeshua has purchased for us.

Witness Lee has a good teaching on the 'net about this. Anyone can google it. I found it last night after going offline.
 
Feb 21, 2012
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When you have a consistent hermeneutic like I have, you can truly grasp things in their proper context.

Jesus is the atoning sacrifice(propitiation) for the sins of the whole world. Now, you guys keep conflating 'world', 'whole world', 'all' as being everybody w/o exception. But let's do a Greek word study for the word 'propitiation'...

Propitiation means God's wrath concerning sin has been appeased, satiated, satisified, &c. Now, if God's wrath has been appeased in regards to all w/o ever lived, then there's no wrath to be meted out on the day of Judgment.

Here are some synonyms for propitiation...

appeasement
abatement
assuage
reconcilement
placate
pacify
Why not do a word study of the word "world" and "whole"? God gave his only begotten Son so that the world through him (Christ) might be saved. (John 3:16,17) Jesus came not for the righteous but for sinners - ALL men have sinned (all w/o exception) . . . therefore the conclusion would be that Jesus paid for the sins of ALL (all w/o exception) mankind but not ALL mankind will profit from the propitiation due to not believing the gospel of salvation. ALL (with distinction) those that believe in the only begotten Son of God will profit from the propitiation of the death, burial and resurrection of our Lord.
Whom God has set forth to be a propitiation THROUGH FAITH in his blood, to declare is righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, . . . .

Now, Jesus' crosswork was all of these for the whole world, meaning it covers the entire earth, but not every human being whoever lived. If Jesus died for all mankind, then all mankind's sins have be atoned, the Father has been propitiated, His wrath is removed for everybody whoever lived, and all humanity goes to heaven, bar none. Hello universalism.

Look at it like this. Billy Graham is known all over the world, but not everyone has heard of Billy Graham, neither do they know anything about him. The Christ is known all over the whole world, yet many died never knowing He existed.

Now, I am waiting for Romans 1...AGAIN!!!
All mankind's sins have been atoned in relation to who believes the gospel. God's wrath is still upon the children of disobedience, those who reject the gospel.

Man, this thread has really been moving . . . I have missed a lot! Will have to go back and read.


 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
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Am trying to go offline since I have so much to do today..but this occurred to me and I want to correct something that you think I am saying.

Just because you want to be as a sheep, doesn't in my view, mean that you aren't a Son whether or not one even believes this or not. If we are born from above...we are the children of God.

I don't view any of you here as less...am only stating what I know to be truth. What Yeshua has purchased for us.

Witness Lee has a good teaching on the 'net about this. Anyone can google it. I found it last night after going offline.
You cannot be the Son you can only be a son. There is only one Son but many sons.

Now if are not sheep you are not a son or daughter depending on your gender.

God has chosen to use figurative language to help folks understand. God chose the nature of sheep to represent His people and goats to represent those who resist Him.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,782
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I am not for sure if the KoG and KoH are the same or not. But none outside the church will make it to heaven.

They are the same thing. If you look at all the references, it is Matthew, writing to a Jewish audience who uses the euphemism "kingdom of heaven." This is because Jews were not supposed to say the name of G-d, as some people still write today.

A comparison of the same passage in different gospels shows the wisdom in this.

"I assure you: Among those born of women no one greater than John the Baptist has appeared, but the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12 From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been suffering violence,and the violent have been seizing it by force." Matt 11:11-12

"I tell you, among those born of women no one is greater than John,but the least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.” Luke 7:28

Here is a comparison of the same passage of all three synoptic gospels!

"He answered them,
“Because the secrets of the kingdom of heaven have been given for you to know, but it has not been given to them." Matt 13:11

"
He answered them, “The secretof the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to those outside, everything comes in parables" Mark 4:11

"
10 So He said, “The secrets of the kingdom of God have been given for you to know, but to the rest it is in parables, so that
Looking they may not see,
and hearing they may not understand." Luke 8:10




Here is an example in which Jesus uses the terms interchangeably.

"Then Jesus said to His disciples, “I assure you: It will be hard for a rich person to enter the kingdom of heaven! 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.” Matt 19:23-24

There are many other examples. Weird Scofield was that bad at reading and interpreting the Bible. On the other hand, dispensationalism being the mess it is, maybe I shouldn't be surprised!
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
​Oh boy,another criticism?


Rockrz {sorry spelled wrong} asked,


"So, when someone gets in to a car wreck and dies or becomes maimed, or someone gets cancer and spends their life savings and dies anyway, when someone gets raped and is scarred for life... are you telling me that God either caused that or had a hand in bringing destruction like this to pass in people's lives???"


And Forth said,

"No one believes this."


Then Forth said,

"Everything was predetermined. God creates calamity at times. From Isaiah 45:

I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things.

Other times things are just a result of our own sin and behavior."


And I asked for a clarification.


Now that its not messy,care to answer or did you only want to criticize? :)


I want to help you, because I had to skip some of your posts, it was unreadable.

If I can give you an advice, use "[/QUOTE]" and "
" tags around the quoted text instead of many font sizes, many empty rows etc.