Chose Your Theological Flower, TULIP, ROSES or DAISY

[Johnny_B]

Peoples theologies fall into one of the three camps if they are orthodox. Molinism has some huge issues though, IMO.



...and here you are discussing it anyhow, lol!!!

You really think so? Since you said you do can yu post some. because I'm just looking into it, I did read Timothy George's book Amazing Grace but at that time I was just beginning my journey into the Biblical Doctrine of Election or the Doctrine of Grace, so I thought he was a Calvinist and not moderate/Molinist. I thought that ROSES was just another TULIP just newer words.

With the book Amazing Grace and Calvinism, Arminianism or Another Option? So I don't know much about it, only that I see something that line with what I believe and some things I've come to believe since being here.

 

[tourist]

I like flowers. Got some red ones outside on the patio. I watered them a couple days ago and they came back to life. It rained today so I'm good.

 

[preacher4truth]

You really think so? Since you said you do can yu post some. because I'm just looking into it, I did read Timothy George's book Amazing Grace but at that time I was just beginning my journey into the Biblical Doctrine of Election or the Doctrine of Grace, so I thought he was a Calvinist and not moderate/Molinist. I thought that ROSES was just another TULIP just newer words.

With the book Amazing Grace and Calvinism, Arminianism or Another Option? So I don't know much about it, only that I see something that line with what I believe and some things I've come to believe since being here.

Yes, brother. Molinism doesn't stop with ROSES and that acronym seems OK to me. Middle knowledge seems one of the issues, that God is dependent to an extent on the myriad of human choices one may make. So it is also Open Theism - God learning, not God omniscient.

 

[Muzungu256]

hi johnyB but doesnt romans 8:29-30 say what your pastor told you that those whom He foreknew He also predestined?????????? says it.

 

[Desertsrose]

Another thing about TULIP, is that one of the things that drew me to Reformed view, is the Sovereignty of God. It may not seem to be soteriological, but is the whole foundation of how people are saved. Other views downplay the importance of God having total control over not just salvation, but everything.

I see these other views as having an impoverished view of who God is, so perhaps adding an "S" for Sovereignty, to TULIP, would help people see the truth of Reformed doctrine. Or is sovereignty contained in one of the other letters?

i guess I prefer TULIPS in a big bed blooming beautifully, over a single flower in the garden!

I'm not saying your are, just so you know ahead of time that I'm generalizing and not pointing you out specifically in this first 3 paragraphs.

Anyone's theology can be so elevated that they become proud and arrogant. And they can begin to forget the power of God that changes the heart and in their arrogance, they begin to act carnally towards those who don't believe exactly what they believe.

And they end up crucifying their own brothers and sisters in the Lord. When we left the Calvinist Church, we were told in a round about way that we weren't Christians. It was like you either worship here or you aren't a Christian. You must be a Calvinist to be saved. Like Demi and Roughsoul, I'll stick with B i b l e.

And I totally believe that God is Sovereign. So please, don't set yourself as the only ones that uphold God's Sovereign rule over mankind.

In God's Sovereignty, He planned out and put into effect mans ability to respond to the gospel by his own free will through faith. He planned it, and He put it into effect. Man didn't.

In the same way you make choices in life, we do too, but our choice began before yours, we got to choose of our own free will by faith, the God whom we will serve. And it's because God willed it and because He decreed it so.

Because you see something impoverished, doesn't make it so. Actually you have reinforced what I said in a different post. Man's theology is weak, it can never incorporate all of the truth of God's word.

Love would be another. I don't think love is mentioned either and it's His love towards mankind that any of us have the hope of salvation for God so loved the world, that He.......GAVE His only begotten Son, so that whosoever will believe in Him will not perish, but will have life eternal.

We need to focus more upon God's love when we approach God's word. We can get too caught up into brain work and forget heart work.

 

[Johnny_B]

I like flowers. Got some red ones outside on the patio. I watered them a couple days ago and they came back to life. It rained today so I'm good.

​What type do you have, there were some other flowers with five letters I could of used but I don't think many people would of knew what they were and the ones that would of known were PANSY, POPPY, TANSY, the one I should tried was the LILAC, I might mess around with that one, LOTUS looks promising as well.

 

[Johnny_B]

I have two more for Dispensationalism

LOTUS,
Life everlasting — Believers are seal by the promised Holy Spirit, until they receive their inheritance.
Omniscient election — God chooses whom He wills, for His purpose.
Through depravity — Mankind is deprived, they can do good, but not in pleasing God.
Unrestricted reconciliation — Christ died for all mankind, that they might be saved.
Seductive grace — God’s grace moves in the believer to accept life, but it can be rejected.

and

LILAC,
Loving election — God chooses whom He wills, for His purpose.
Inclusive reconciliation — Christ died for all mankind, that they might be saved.
Life everlasting — Believers are seal by the promised Holy Spirit, until they receive their inheritance.
Alluring grace — God’s grace moves in the believer to accept life, but it can be rejected.
Comprehensive depravity — Mankind is deprived, they can do good, but not in pleasing God.

 

[Johnny_B]

Another thing about TULIP, is that one of the things that drew me to Reformed view, is the Sovereignty of God. It may not seem to be soteriological, but is the whole foundation of how people are saved. Other views downplay the importance of God having total control over not just salvation, but everything.

I see these other views as having an impoverished view of who God is, so perhaps adding an "S" for Sovereignty, to TULIP, would help people see the truth of Reformed doctrine. Or is sovereignty contained in one of the other letters?

i guess I prefer TULIPS in a big bed blooming beautifully, over a single flower in the garden!

BLOOM was on the list of flowers with five letters. What you've said why I don't understand why people openly reject the Doctrines of Grace and get very upset and call God a monster amount other things. Beef I understood the DoG I used to say lots of things about the doctrines, but I would never say anything against God because I thought if this is true and I call the Lord whatever I have broken the third commandment.

I seen people post things like "faith allows God to" can't remember the rest, that is scary. Even before I got a full understanding of election and I was looking into double election and simply said if that is God as much as I don't understand it and I see it as wrong. I still submitted myself to the Word of the Lord. I could never call the Lord a monster or any other thing, which makes me wonder how I Corinthians 12:2 fit with people calling the Lord many names because they believe that election is cruel to those that will not believe, how does this fit in.

"Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says “Jesus is accursed!” and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except in the Holy Spirit." Can someone that is regenerate say such things about the Lord as some say when we talk about election? I fear the Lord to much to try and tread on those waters.

 

[Johnny_B]

Yes, brother. Molinism doesn't stop with ROSES and that acronym seems OK to me. Middle knowledge seems one of the issues, that God is dependent to an extent on the myriad of human choices one may make. So it is also Open Theism - God learning, not God omniscient.

The middle knowledge is why I want to read more before I say anything. But I do not like identifying with groups anyway, but their idea on free will needs to be investigated more for me. The book I read last night was only 124 pages and they were not full pages. So I need to read more and re-read Timothy George's book. I know William Lane Craig is a very smart man, I was blessed to see him and a professor from UC Irvine on the resurrection, the professor believed in the twin theory. Dr. Craig called it the David theory, because at that time the movie David about the nice twin brother that took the presidents place when he died unexpectedly.

I am going to get Dr. Craig's book "the Only Wise God" to see exactly what this middle knowledge is, or maybe get the book on "Four Views of Divine Foreknowledge" which will give me a side by side comparison so to speak of the four views, Open Theism, Simple Foreknowledge, Middle Knowledge and Augustinian-Calvinist views. There are just about 200 pages so it should not take that long to read and they are available.

It is interesting how once you fit something it seems like it's all over now, one thing I notice is that these books are not very lengthy and they want top dollar for them, of course I seen a booklet "A Primer Of Predestination" that is 50 pages and they want $21.00 to an unbelievable $45.00 for it. Theses books are 100 to 130 and they are asking 20 minimum, but I have noticed that the "Four Views" have Middle Knowledge in them on Election, Predestination & Free Will, Salvation, Atonement, Divine Providence. I have a could of Craig's books, Alvin Plantica and Nicholas Wolterstorff are middle-knowledge philosophers and I have a few of their books. I got these when I was young in the faith, I would go to a lobar sale every year and get paperbacks for $0.25-1.00 and hardbacks for $1.00 to 2.00, then I made the mistake of selling a few of them that just did not fit into what I wanted to learn and the used book store guy seen the library stamp and called them to make sure I did not seal them and Him and three of his employees started going and they would grab up just about all the good books.

Here's Calvinism, Arminianism or... Another Option? of course the other option is Monism, it all of about 120 pages, I got through it last nigh, but need to re-read it because I was dozing off while reading it, not a good idea for comprehension.

 

[Adstar]

CALVINISM: TULIP
T: Total depravity – Every facet of every person everywhere has been marred by sin.
U: Unconditional election – God chooses those to be saved based solely on His will.
L: Limited atonement – Christ died only for those who are elect.
I: Irresistible grace – The elect cannot resist God’s call to salvation.
P: Perseverance of the saints – The elect cannot lose their salvation.

ARMINIANISM: DAISY*
D: Diminished depravity – Humanity is depraved, but God uses prevenient grace to restore man’s ability to respond to Him.
A: Abrogated election – God bases His election on His foreknowledge of those who freely choose Him.
I: Impersonal atonement – Christ died for everyone, making salvation possible for everyone.
S: Sedentary grace – God calls everyone to salvation, but many freely reject it.
Y: Yieldable justification – The saved can fall from grace and lose their salvation.

*The DAISY acronym is much harder to pin down as there are several different versions (I’ll discuss another when analyzing Arminianism). Also, many Arminians do not like the acrostic. Several versions of DAISY have been pushed by Calvinists as caricatures of Arminian theology. Many Calvinists seem to also enjoy making the lame joke that the Arminian flower is a daisy because they pull the petals off saying, “God loves me. He loves me not.”

MOLINISM: ROSES*
R: Radical depravity – Every aspect of humanity is depraved, but we are not always as bad as we could be.
O: Overcoming grace – God’s grace is persistent in the life of the believer, but it can be resisted.
S: Sovereign election – God desires the salvation of all, but our salvation is based on His choice not ours.
E: Eternal life – God grants believers eternal security in their salvation.
S: Singular redemption – Christ died sufficiently for all people, but efficiently only for the saved.

*Timothy George, a Calvinist Baptist, uses the same acrostic as Kenneth Keathley, a Molinist. The differences lie in the way the terms are defined. I will focus on the Molinist understanding as we will discuss the various forms and moderations of Calvinism with the TULIP.

Tomorrow, we will start off our exploration of the flower bed with the most well known of the botanical acrostics – TULIP.

Tulip:
I totally reject Tulip

Daisy:
I don't understand what the first point of Daisy is but agree with the other 4 letters..

Roses:
R: Not sure about the first point needs more explaining..
O: Need more clarification on the second letter..
S: Disagree with the 3rd letter..
E: Needs clarification is that before the resurrection or after it?
S: I agree with this point

 

[Johnny_B]

Tulip:
I totally reject Tulip

Daisy:
I don't understand what the first point of Daisy is but agree with the other 4 letters..

Roses:
R: Not sure about the first point needs more explaining..
O: Need more clarification on the second letter..
S: Disagree with the 3rd letter..
E: Needs clarification is that before the resurrection or after it?
S: I agree with this point

The "D" in daisy is about the sin nature in humans. The "R" in ROSES is the same. Point one in all there are the same with Arminianism adding prevenient grace. Point two of ROSES is that God's grace works in a believers life to the point of over coming in there life, but if they do not believe then they resisted it. Third point you place yourself over God in your salvation?
Point 4 as in John 3:16 "that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." Once you believe you have eternal life as in eternity and you will never perish, as in not perishing in hell. Interesting that you agree with the fifth point because that is the same point TULIP makes with the "L" this writer did not put that in the article and I did not want to change it, but it is para for the course, every article that is written about Calvinism by someone that is not, they aways misrepresent it. Like the "T" in being totally depraved you can still do good, just nothing you can do to gain God's favor.

Not sure how long you've been a believer, but if you watch as people discuss things Calvinists are misquoted are accused of believing something that they do not believe. It reminds me of the news media. A democrat can have sexual misconduct and it will be reported once in a matter of fact type of way, but if a republican does the something they keep reporting the story without evidence and they all co-sign each other. Then when the truth comes out, they do not apologize for reporting misinformation or if it's in print they will bury it in section F97. The sad part is that they can say they don't believe that show the other person what they believe through the Scriptures and that person will repeat what they said earlier, after being show how the Calvinist does not believe what they are saying that they believe. People all them names, make immature remarks to them, basically not loving them as themselves, as Christ commanded.

Jesus did say they will hate you because of the words I gave you in John 17 in His high priestly pray. But people do not even notice that they are doing and if they do that's even worse, because they are not loving the brothers as John said in his epistles. Something to think about as you watch what happens around here.

 

[dcontroversal]

I prefer....T.R.U.T.H

 

[followjesus]

In my opinion, this can begin to confuse those who are coming to the faith.

It almost sets in concrete a new believer into framing all of his/her theology according to this (one of these), as opposed to allowing the scriptures to speak for themselves.

That is why, probably, there exists this arm-wrestling in the body of Christ.

You should never substitute bible study (where the Holy Spirit teaches a soul) with an indoctrination program.

amen to that 100 percent. I often wonder why in the world, the subject is usually what calvin taught, or what luther taught or what this one or that one taught. theres only 1 to learn of God from. "denomationism", theological interpretations of various men, those things are not in anyway designs of God. its almost a mimick of the chronicles. the Bible has the answers, within it is the Word of God, and its design is on the most personal of levels. Between the seeker of God, and God Himself, with the One and only Jesus Christ as the mediator. simple it seems but like the hatfields and mcoys.....Humans think we have the answers.

strange times bro but they have been for ages since a man and a woman thought....." Hey, God said not to eat this fruit..., but this other fella is tellin us He lied."

 

[Johnny_B]

amen to that 100 percent. I often wonder why in the world, the subject is usually what calvin taught, or what luther taught or what this one or that one taught. theres only 1 to learn of God from. "denomationism", theological interpretations of various men, those things are not in anyway designs of God. its almost a mimick of the chronicles. the Bible has the answers, within it is the Word of God, and its design is on the most personal of levels. Between the seeker of God, and God Himself, with the One and only Jesus Christ as the mediator. simple it seems but like the hatfields and mcoys.....Humans think we have the answers.

strange times bro but they have been for ages since a man and a woman thought....." Hey, God said not to eat this fruit..., but this other fella is tellin us He lied."

​You don't think God created languages? In that He also moved people to begin to set up grammar, accenting and punctuation so that when we read the Bible we would have rules of interpretation. Do you really think that God know ing that He was going to leave His written word for mankind that He would not set up a system that helped man understand His word? Encase you did not know theology is the study of God so we all have aTheology because we all have our idea of who God is, weather right or wrong. Theses rules for reading is the reason why Paul and Peter could say these things.

Paul I Timothy 2:15 "Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth." There is a system that helps us understand the word if the Lord and we need to follow those rules, to rightly handling the word of truth, look at what Peter says.

II Peter 1:19-21, 3:16 "And we have the prophetic word more fully confirmed, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts,20 knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation.21 For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.....And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures."

No Scripture has an interpretation for one person, but it means something else to someone else, no. Everyone should be coming to the same conclusions or close to it. This is why we have rules of Language so that we can all read it the same way to come out with the same interpretation and if you are not, you need to learn to handle the word of truth properly.

 

[Tinuviel]

If you take the history and the context of how, when and why it was written it is easier to understand, it is in the context of mans ability to please God or enter His kingdom. John 3:3

“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Unless one is born again they can not even see the kingdom of God, let alone enter it.

Which is correct, but it has become such a hot-button that I honestly try not to use any of the TULIP terms when I talk to others. For myself, I wholeheartedly believe the Bible teaches TULIP.

 

[Desertsrose]

If you take the history and the context of how, when and why it was written it is easier to understand, it is in the context of mans ability to please God or enter His kingdom. John 3:3

“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Unless one is born again they can not even see the kingdom of God, let alone enter it.

Johnny, I was reading the thread again and wondered how this would prove Calvinism? Because I believe this portion of scripture and I'm not a Calvinist.

How I see it, the person who answers the call by grace through believing, or the one who is born again and then believes, they both see the kingdom of God when they're born again, right?

Joe hears the gospel and by God's grace he says no. He continues in sin.
I hear the gospel and by God's grace through faith I say yes before I'm born again.
You hear the gospel and you're born again and then believe afterwards.

Both of us by God's grace through faith will now see God's kingdom and begin to understand its meaning. Jesus is stating a fact. Nicodemus you must be born again to see God's kingdom.

Did Jesus tell him, "You're so depraved and unless I first regenerate you Nicodemus, you can't be born again, but also if my Father didn't first elect you from the beginning of time you're out of reach of God's grace to save you so you can't come to me."

Jesus' answer: As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

 

[Adstar]

The "D" in daisy is about the sin nature in humans. The "R" in ROSES is the same. Point one in all there are the same with Arminianism adding prevenient grace. Point two of ROSES is that God's grace works in a believers life to the point of over coming in there life, but if they do not believe then they resisted it. Third point you place yourself over God in your salvation?
Point 4 as in John 3:16 "that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." Once you believe you have eternal life as in eternity and you will never perish, as in not perishing in hell. Interesting that you agree with the fifth point because that is the same point TULIP makes with the "L" this writer did not put that in the article and I did not want to change it, but it is para for the course, every article that is written about Calvinism by someone that is not, they aways misrepresent it. Like the "T" in being totally depraved you can still do good, just nothing you can do to gain God's favor.

Not sure how long you've been a believer, but if you watch as people discuss things Calvinists are misquoted are accused of believing something that they do not believe. It reminds me of the news media. A democrat can have sexual misconduct and it will be reported once in a matter of fact type of way, but if a republican does the something they keep reporting the story without evidence and they all co-sign each other. Then when the truth comes out, they do not apologize for reporting misinformation or if it's in print they will bury it in section F97. The sad part is that they can say they don't believe that show the other person what they believe through the Scriptures and that person will repeat what they said earlier, after being show how the Calvinist does not believe what they are saying that they believe. People all them names, make immature remarks to them, basically not loving them as themselves, as Christ commanded.

Jesus did say they will hate you because of the words I gave you in John 17 in His high priestly pray. But people do not even notice that they are doing and if they do that's even worse, because they are not loving the brothers as John said in his epistles. Something to think about as you watch what happens around here.

I am still not sure about most of the points i asked about.. You have just restated the points without expolaination.. Anyway I have been a believer for about 30 years and have spent 20 years on Christian forums and i have been involved in calvinist debates for all that time.. So i know what TULIP is and i totally rejeect all the points of TULIP.. The only conclusion that calvinisim leads to is that God created some people to have no other eternity then to burn in the Lake of fire forever.. I find such a conclusion to be a great insult to the character of God..

My experience with some calvinists in this forum have been very toxic the amount of hate and denigration they engage in towards non calvinists in CC is a disgrace.. I have had to block two of them because of their un-christian behavour.. So from what i have seen on this forum and others is that some calvinists are very prideful and arrogant towards non calvinists.. Engaging them in debate often becomes a toxic experience.. So Jesus was right people have hated on me a lot for the Words Jesus gave me in the Bible about Him not wanting anyone to perish but all to come to repentance,, Some calvinists really hate on you for giving them those Words..

 

[Magenta]

​

 

[StephenAltrogge]

I wrote a lengthy post laying out my views. You should be able to guess my flower.

Read it here...

 

[Johnny_B]

Arminians came up with their own. Just the facts, please.

Freed by Grace (to Believe)
Atonement for All
Conditional Election
Total Depravity
Security in Christ

F.A.C.T.S. sounds like T.U.L.I.P. or R.O.S.E.S. or P.R.O.O.F. because it has Total depravity which is the T in TULIP, Freed by grace is the I in TULIP irresistible grace, it is His grace that frees man to by his will chose the Lord. Atonement for All is what the L in TULIP because it is limited in it's effect not in it's scope, Christ's sacrifice is for all people, the sins of the world, it benefits or application are to those that believe. Conditional Election is what the U in TULIP what is the condition "Whom ever He wills" based on His condition. Security in Christ is the P in TULIP, perseverance of the saints, if you are indeed in Christ you are sealed by the promised Spirit until the inheritance or His appearing our blessed hope. FACTS also lines up with ROSES.

Here's what it boils down to, which one glorifies God as God the Savior and which one glorifies God as servant to man?

Here's another one I found, with Scripture reference and I will be posting the Scriptures for TULIP, ROSES, which are all the same, PROOF is posted here. If someone would post the Scriptures for FACTS and DAISY
PROOF: Finding Freedom through the Intoxicating Joy of Irresistible Grace by Daniel Montgomery, Timothy Paul Jones

Planned Grace - Before time began, God mapped out the plan of salvation from first to last. God planned to adopt particular people as his own children; Christ offered himself as a sacrifice for these people’s sins and as a substitute who satisfied God’s righteous requirements in their place (John 10:11 – 18; Ephesians 1:4 – 12).
Resurrecting Grace - Everyone is born spiritually dead. Left to ourselves, we will never choose God’s way. God enables people to respond freely to his grace by giving them spiritual life through the power of Christ’s resurrection (John 5:21; Ephesians 2:1 – 7).
Outrageous Grace - God chose people to be saved on the basis of his own sovereign will. He didn’t base his choice to give us grace on anything that we did or might do (John 15:16; Ephesians 2:8 – 9).
Overcoming Grace - God works in the lives of his chosen people to transform their rebellion into surrender so that they freely repent and recognize Christ as the risen King (John 6:44, 65; Ephesians 2:4 – 10).
Forever Grace - God seals his people with his Holy Spirit so that they are preserved and persevere in faith until the final restoration of God’s kingdom on the earth (John 10:27 – 29; Ephesians 1:13 – 14; 4:30).