Consequences of sinning

[dcontroversal]

You didn't answer the questions. Another question how do you interpret abide in the vine?

The word abide means to remain, be consistent or steadfast and has to do with bearing fruit, not being saved......and yeah i did answer one of yur questions....IT is GOD who seals....man CANNOT undo, break or disanul WHAT GOD HAS DONE.....

Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The
Lord knoweth them that are his.

 

[dcontroversal]

by using the Biblical definitions of sin, sadly no, not possible. what is possible is to deceive one's self into thinking that one does not sin. and, also sadly, that is on display here everyday.

Most take sin and make it a verb every place it is used.....blind to the fact that it is a noun and and a verb and NO ONE on here has promoted a continual lifestyle of sin.....

 

[Ariel82]

It is used 6 times in the New Testament and it speaks of Christ and what He has done and what God has ordained to be done by and through Him. I just stick with Christ and behold Him and all things will come into their place.

I do like this simple understanding of it but that is all the thought or interest I have in the subject.

[video=youtube;d4Ewsad_yEk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4Ewsad_yEk[/video]

Min. 5:30

I disagree with his explanation that Jews are vessels of honor and Gentiles are vessels of wrath in the potter and clay parable.

There is a difference between election and selection.

 

[BeyondET]

by using the Biblical definitions of sin, sadly no, not possible. what is possible is to deceive one's self into thinking that one does not sin. and, also sadly, that is on display here everyday.

seems logical to me, IMO if a person does stumble I don't feel as if Jesus is in the abandoning business and thus desert them in the hour of need of help, I think that's what he lived for and died for.

 

[dcontroversal]

Hi d: Been there done that. I had been a Christian for over 20 years and believed deeply that a really saved person could not be lost. I was Baptist but was visiting a charismatic church where the Pastor called it a false doctrine, I was somewhat angry and was getting my bible out to show him from scripture how wrong he was(I knew all the scriptures pertaining to that doctrine), anyway, the Lord spoke to me and said, don't try to prove him wrong just read the bible and see what it really says on that subject. I did and I came away with the understanding that the bible does indeed teach that a really saved person can become lost if they turn from Christ and never repent from turning. Jesus even taught this to the apostles, that they had to abide in the vine, that was something that they had to do, God does not do it for us. Paul was an overcomer because he KEPT THE FAITH. God will constantly encourage you to keep the faith, but God will not make you keep the faith.

I don't believe that view...verb tense proves it to be false.....scripture proves it to be false..John s clear....those who go out from us to never return WERE NEVER SAVED TO BEGIN WITH.....Judas is a prime example.....was a devil from the beginning, a son of perdition and eve though he went thru the motions was never saved to begin with....and that is where the mark is missed....A genuine saved child of GOD cannot lose that wich is eternal....if it was loseable it would be described as tempory...if it is losable then it is dependent upon what WE DO and we deserve the glory...if it is loseable then WE must do something to maintain or keep it and we deserve the glory......the bible is clear....OUR eternal salvation is based upon the WORK of CHRIST on our behalf, ON the FAITH of CHRIST which is perfect and unfailing, based upon the imputed righteousness of CHRIST which is satisfatory unto the Father, is based upon the UNBREAKABLE sealing of the Holy Spirit, is based upon being sanctified positionally in Christ FOREVER, based upon MERCY, GRACE and the FREE GIFT given by GOD etc.....

The verb tenses used describe a presenct continuing RESULT from a past COMPLETED action.......it cannot be lost nor forfeit after it has been given in faith.......

 

[Roughsoul1991]

The word abide means to remain, be consistent or steadfast and has to do with bearing fruit, not being saved......and yeah i did answer one of yur questions....IT is GOD who seals....man CANNOT undo, break or disanul WHAT GOD HAS DONE.....

Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The
Lord knoweth them that are his.

Remain good Im glad you admitted that

John 15New International Version (NIV)

The Vine and the Branches

15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

Thrown int a fire and burned. What fire? A bonfire or hell and brimstone fire?

What of an earnest agreement? And has seals in the bible ever been broken?


The seal is a mark of the Holy Spirit nothing in scripture says that this automatically secures you. In fact the word seal in greek is 4972 spharagizo. This word is from 4973 spharagis "a seal". Basically the same word in greek is used for the seal on the tomb that was broken, the seals in revelations scrolls will be opened and also implying a king's signet ring marking what is his. It's only a promise to the obedient. So to the obedient, it is a promise we can hold onto.

13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Deposit guarantee in greek is the word arrabon meaning an earnest payment.


Ephesians 1:14King James Version (KJV)

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

An earnest payment is a specific form of security deposit made in some major transactions and when the transaction is settled then the deposit is applied to the buyer's portion of the remaining costs. If the offer is rejected, the earnest money is usually returned, since no binding contract has been entered into.

Indicating the offer can be rejected if the one looking to follow God, does not fulfill his side of the pledge( sufficient proof) highlighted in red below...........

arrabón: an earnest (a part payment in advance for security)​

Original Word: ἀρραβών, ῶνος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: arrabón
Phonetic Spelling: (ar-hrab-ohn')
Short Definition: an earnest, earnest-money
Definition: an earnest, earnest-money, a large part of the payment, given in advance as a security that the whole will be paid afterwards.
HELPS Word-studies
728 arrhabṓn – properly, an installment; a deposit ("down-payment") which guarantees the balance (the full purchase-price).
728 /arrhabṓn ("down-payment pledge") is the regular term in NT times for "earnest-money," i.e. advance-payment that guarantees the rest will be given. 728 (arrhabṓn) then represents full security backed by the purchaser who supplies sufficient proof they will fulfill the entire pledge (promise).


What is sufficient proof? Probably a believer who remains faithful in surrender and obedience to the end. To the faithful we are marked and in our relationship with Christ, we can trust in his promise of our inheritance until the day of redemption once we die in flesh and live in spirit.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Most take sin and make it a verb every place it is used.....blind to the fact that it is a noun and and a verb and NO ONE on here has promoted a continual lifestyle of sin.....

No one promotes it but OSAS believers either say believers no longer sin or their sins only affect them worldly because their doctrine teaches security from start to finish. So how can yall preach don't sin but then say your sins don't affect you eternally after being saved?

Oh wait then yall say well that person wasn't never saved lol

 

[BeyondET]

Who among men can tell Jesus who He forgives and saves?

 

[Roughsoul1991]

what I am saying, and it baffles me that folks do not get this- NOT EVERYONE WHO CLIAMS TO BE A TRUE BELIEVER IS ONE. we do not know what is truly in someone else's heart, only God knows and judges that. that is why we should not be overly judgemental.

the word Gospel means good news. preach it, folks respond to it. be a judgemental loudmouth, folks run from it. stop being the latter, start doing the former. railing against sin does not change or lead people to Christ no where near as telling them that God loves them and sent his Son to die for them. that is the Gospel. stop sinning or go to hell, while true to a point, is man-made religion.

Well I agree not all are true believers but yes some fall from faith which was true but thorns of life strangled it and some will continue in faith unto the end. We dont know peoples hearts we only can warn that falling away is real and to be on guard against it and to save other believers from it possibly saving their soul. The only reason your getting a big dose of debate against OSAS is because your speaking for it believing it to be true. So just like you speaking for it to be true, I speak against it to preach my enlightenment of truth. Because my truth I have been enlightened with doesnt match yours I should some how stop preaching it? lol and buddy like it or not hell is part of the gospel and not man made. You cant teach on one without the other. Should hell be all focused on? Heck no but its still the gospel.

 

[dcontroversal]

Remain good Im glad you admitted that

John 15New International Version (NIV)

The Vine and the Branches

15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

Thrown int a fire and burned. What fire? A bonfire or hell and brimstone fire?

What of an earnest agreement? And has seals in the bible ever been broken?


The seal is a mark of the Holy Spirit nothing in scripture says that this automatically secures you. In fact the word seal in greek is 4972 spharagizo. This word is from 4973 spharagis "a seal". Basically the same word in greek is used for the seal on the tomb that was broken, the seals in revelations scrolls will be opened and also implying a king's signet ring marking what is his. It's only a promise to the obedient. So to the obedient, it is a promise we can hold onto.

13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Deposit guarantee in greek is the word arrabon meaning an earnest payment.


Ephesians 1:14King James Version (KJV)

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

An earnest payment is a specific form of security deposit made in some major transactions and when the transaction is settled then the deposit is applied to the buyer's portion of the remaining costs. If the offer is rejected, the earnest money is usually returned, since no binding contract has been entered into.

Indicating the offer can be rejected if the one looking to follow God, does not fulfill his side of the pledge( sufficient proof) highlighted in red below...........

arrabón: an earnest (a part payment in advance for security)​

Original Word: ἀρραβών, ῶνος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: arrabón
Phonetic Spelling: (ar-hrab-ohn')
Short Definition: an earnest, earnest-money
Definition: an earnest, earnest-money, a large part of the payment, given in advance as a security that the whole will be paid afterwards.
HELPS Word-studies
728 arrhabṓn – properly, an installment; a deposit ("down-payment") which guarantees the balance (the full purchase-price).
728 /arrhabṓn ("down-payment pledge") is the regular term in NT times for "earnest-money," i.e. advance-payment that guarantees the rest will be given. 728 (arrhabṓn) then represents full security backed by the purchaser who supplies sufficient proof they will fulfill the entire pledge (promise).


What is sufficient proof? Probably a believer who remains faithful in surrender and obedience to the end. To the faithful we are marked and in our relationship with Christ, we can trust in his promise of our inheritance until the day of redemption once we die in flesh and live in spirit.

Nothing of what you posted proves the loss of salvation....end of story......God does not upbraid.....and verb tense as applied to salvation proves your fallacy......a completed ACTION with CONTINUING results.....

He that BELIEVES ON HE SON is HAVING EVERLASTING LIFE...........and it is HIS faith that saves us....

IN the grace you are (positionally) HAVING been saved (past tense) out of FAITH, and that NOT of YOURSELVES (directed at the faith that saves) it is the GIFT of GOD (not earned by remaining and bearing fruit) NOT of WORKS (anything DONE BY YOU) LEST any man should BOAST (if YOU MUST KEEP your salvation by works, deeds, bearing fruit) then YOU have ther right to boast.....

Let's get this straight for ALL who reads this.....NO ONE, including YOU will ever reverse MY mind on the eternal security found in the bible afforded to ALL who acknowledge JESUS by faith.....no amount of twisted scripture, rejected verb tense, denied verses in context, verses taken out of context, and or deceit will change my MIND EVER.....I have studied ALL sides and to teach it can be LOST or forfeit DENIES VERB TENSE, the words of JESUS and the INSPIRED words of those who wrote the bible.....

IF salvation can be forfeit by what we do or don't do after salvation then the power rests with US and not GOD......I choose to believe the word...and it clearly states that my life in Christ is eternal, everlasting and rests in the POWER and WORK of JESUS....

END of STORY.....if you chose to believe you can forfeit it or lose it....good luck.....and if so...you must DO something to keep it or earn it....GALATIANS 1 and 3 speaks to this delusion and calls it foolish and the one who believes it bewitched!

 

[Muzungu256]

No one promotes it but OSAS believers either say believers no longer sin or their sins only affect them worldly because their doctrine teaches security from start to finish. So how can yall preach don't sin but then say your sins don't affect you eternally after being saved?

Oh wait then yall say well that person wasn't never saved lol

you need to think this out more because if we have been sealed by the Holy Spirit how can a mere human unseal what God has sealed??????????????????????????? it cannot be done................... its not that people are saying you say a prayer and are saved............. you mention the tulip in other posts so you must know what perseverence of the saints is!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Who among men can tell Jesus who He forgives and saves?

No one, except people say for those who fall from the faith they were never saved supporting their doctrine.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

you need to think this out more because if we have been sealed by the Holy Spirit how can a mere human unseal what God has sealed??????????????????????????? it cannot be done................... its not that people are saying you say a prayer and are saved............. you mention the tulip in other posts so you must know what perseverence of the saints is!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have thought and studied this to death so it may be yall to rethink it. If you believe in free will a mere human can freely deny the gift.

 

[dcontroversal]

No one promotes it but OSAS believers either say believers no longer sin or their sins only affect them worldly because their doctrine teaches security from start to finish. So how can yall preach don't sin but then say your sins don't affect you eternally after being saved?

Oh wait then yall say well that person wasn't never saved lol

Again the bible is clear concerning sin in a believer........

a. NO one is sinless
b. Grace out bounds our sin
c. Christ constantly mediates for those saved concerning their sin
d. The blood of Christ is applied unto ALL sin in a believer
e. Our sins are judged in loss of reward (1st Corinthians 3)
f. Our sins can be judged by sickness and disease (Corinthians and DAVID)
g. Our sins can result in physical death or the destruction of the flesh (Corinthians)

Regardless, our salvation and bith as a son or daughter of GOD is secure and sure in Christ.............the SPIRIT of a child of GOD has been born of INCORRUPTABLE SEED!

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Nothing of what you posted proves the loss of salvation....end of story......God does not upbraid.....and verb tense as applied to salvation proves your fallacy......a completed ACTION with CONTINUING results.....

He that BELIEVES ON HE SON is HAVING EVERLASTING LIFE...........and it is HIS faith that saves us....

IN the grace you are (positionally) HAVING been saved (past tense) out of FAITH, and that NOT of YOURSELVES (directed at the faith that saves) it is the GIFT of GOD (not earned by remaining and bearing fruit) NOT of WORKS (anything DONE BY YOU) LEST any man should BOAST (if YOU MUST KEEP your salvation by works, deeds, bearing fruit) then YOU have ther right to boast.....

Let's get this straight for ALL who reads this.....NO ONE, including YOU will ever reverse MY mind on the eternal security found in the bible afforded to ALL who acknowledge JESUS by faith.....no amount of twisted scripture, rejected verb tense, denied verses in context, verses taken out of context, and or deceit will change my MIND EVER.....I have studied ALL sides and to teach it can be LOST or forfeit DENIES VERB TENSE, the words of JESUS and the INSPIRED words of those who wrote the bible.....

IF salvation can be forfeit by what we do or don't do after salvation then the power rests with US and not GOD......I choose to believe the word...and it clearly states that my life in Christ is eternal, everlasting and rests in the POWER and WORK of JESUS....

END of STORY.....if you chose to believe you can forfeit it or lose it....good luck.....and if so...you must DO something to keep it or earn it....GALATIANS 1 and 3 speaks to this delusion and calls it foolish and the one who believes it bewitched!

[h=1]1 Corinthians 10New International Version (NIV)[/h][h=3]Warnings From Israel’s History[/h][FONT=&quot]10 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3 They all ate the same spiritual food 4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. 5 Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6 Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did. 7 Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: “The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in revelry.”[a] 8 We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did—and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died.9 We should not test Christ,[b] as some of them did—and were killed by snakes. 10 And do not grumble, as some of them did—and were killed by the destroying angel.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come.12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall!13 No temptation[c] has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted[d] beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted,[e] he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.

God will always be faithful but will man in faith remain? God's gift is never lost but only can be denied by our free will. [/FONT]

 

[BeyondET]

No one, except people say for those who fall from the faith they were never saved supporting their doctrine.

Sounds quite odd, Peter fell into the water because of lack of faith yet Jesus helped him into the boat surely Jesus didn't say because of your lack of faith Peter you will drown. same can apply to a lot of things in life that drag folks down a stormy road.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Again the bible is clear concerning sin in a believer........

a. NO one is sinless
b. Grace out bounds our sin
c. Christ constantly mediates for those saved concerning their sin
d. The blood of Christ is applied unto ALL sin in a believer
e. Our sins are judged in loss of reward (1st Corinthians 3)
f. Our sins can be judged by sickness and disease (Corinthians and DAVID)
g. Our sins can result in physical death or the destruction of the flesh (Corinthians)

Regardless, our salvation and bith as a son or daughter of GOD is secure and sure in Christ.............the SPIRIT of a child of GOD has been born of INCORRUPTABLE SEED!

And.....
e. Our sins are judged in loss of reward (1st Corinthians 3)
f. Our sins can be judged by sickness and disease (Corinthians and DAVID)
g. Our sins can result in physical death or the destruction of the flesh (Corinthians)
[h=1]h.Hebrews 10:26-27New International Version (NIV)[/h][FONT=&quot]26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.[/FONT]

 

[Roughsoul1991]

But actually 1 Corinthians 3 is speaking of the work of pastors and how not all pastors will be successful and some will even not on purpose teach false beliefs but still having the foundation right in Christ their work will be burnt up while the work of pastors who taught full truth will be rewarded richly. Its all in the context of laying the right foundation of a church and using Apollos and Paul as an example. Its all about what they built on the foundation of Christ. So actually no this doesnt relate to salvation in context at all.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

[h=1]Romans 8:23-25New International Version (NIV)[/h][FONT=&quot]23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit,groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have?25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.[/FONT]

 

[gb9]

Well I agree not all are true believers but yes some fall from faith which was true but thorns of life strangled it and some will continue in faith unto the end. We dont know peoples hearts we only can warn that falling away is real and to be on guard against it and to save other believers from it possibly saving their soul. The only reason your getting a big dose of debate against OSAS is because your speaking for it believing it to be true. So just like you speaking for it to be true, I speak against it to preach my enlightenment of truth. Because my truth I have been enlightened with doesnt match yours I should some how stop preaching it? lol and buddy like it or not hell is part of the gospel and not man made. You cant teach on one without the other. Should hell be all focused on? Heck no but its still the gospel.

o.k mr. enlightened one, here is some truth for you- I am not osas because I do believe that we have free will before and after accepting Christ, so as I choose him as Savior, I could one day in-choose, which would probably mean I never really accepted Him in the first place.

now, I do 100% believe that we do not save ourselves in any way , other than believing and trusting Christ. works do not save. stumbling does not cancel salvation, because salvation is a gift from God, the N.T. makes this clear over and over. Titus 3 explains it all.

and , most of the N.T. is letters to churches and indaviduals, meant to be read as letters, not chopped apart for your or any agenda. verses were not added to them to the 1300's or so.

now, young fellow, you have some real enlightenment.