Consequences of sinning
- Thread starter Grace777x70
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Thanks for responding.
With regards to point one, the temptation was not a sin, but I know you know that.
Yes they disobeyed that command to not eat from the tree of good and evil.
Genesis 3:4-5
“You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
Maybe the sin was wanting to be like God, falling for the lie.
With regard to point 2.
They already knew good, but now they had the contrasting experience of the evil of disobedience and the guilt and shame that came with it
Genesis 3:9-10
But the Lord God called to the man, “Where are you?”
He answered, “I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.”
Fear and guilt are the first consequences of their sin
With regards to point one, the temptation was not a sin, but I know you know that.
Yes they disobeyed that command to not eat from the tree of good and evil.
Genesis 3:4-5
“You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
Maybe the sin was wanting to be like God, falling for the lie.
With regard to point 2.
They already knew good, but now they had the contrasting experience of the evil of disobedience and the guilt and shame that came with it
Genesis 3:9-10
But the Lord God called to the man, “Where are you?”
He answered, “I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.”
Fear and guilt are the first consequences of their sin
W
Oh, and to address the original post and Romans 3-23 it has to be read in context..All through the chapter beginning with verse 10 Paul is speaking of the wicked, not the righteous..
Romans 3
There is none good not one)? What is Paul referencing from the OT? The fact that Paul began his declaration by saying "it is written" goes completely ignored by most...
Every single PASSAGE Paul was quoting from in the old testament the wicked were CONTRASTED against the righteous.. I ask you: why by your own words do you always number yourself among the wicked…
Romans 3
1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. 5 But if our unrighteousness (the Jews as a nation, Isaiah 64) commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man) 6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?
7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner? 8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just. 9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; (the Jewish nation and the Gentile nations, not individuals per say) An example of this is found in Isaiah 64. Whereas the righteous prophet Isaiah was speaking to a wicked and perverse nation, Israel. In that all of her righteousness was as filthy rags fading away in their iniquities).
10 As it is written, (Paul is drawing from the OT) There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
In examining Paul's declarations to the Romans in chapter 3, let's use two OT examples, Joseph and Hanna, and see if their works are being referenced by Paul. Or could it be that Paul is speaking about other kinds of people? Possibly the wicked and not the righteous? Joseph and Hanna are but two of the many righteous men/women in the OT, I contend that Paul is not speaking of the righteous in verses 10-18 in Romans 3. But rather Paul is referencing the wicked in Psalms 14, 53, 5, 140, 10, 36 and Proverbs 1-16, 16-8, and Isaiah 59-7,8
Psalms 14-1, the wicked who say there is no God. Psalms 53-1 the wicked who are corrupt and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good. None of the wicked do good. Not in any of these verses in which Paul quotes from is he referring to the righteous. Like all chapters, and in both of these occasions, the righteous are always separated from the wicked. Would these OT quotes be speaking about the likes of Joseph, or Hanna etc? Absolutely not! These two Psalms are speaking about the fools who believe not God and the wicked that obey not God. If both Psalms are examined carefully we can find the wicked spoken of in contrast to the righteous. So, in drawing from these two Psalms, Paul is most defiantly speaking of the unrighteous, not the righteous. Therefore types like Joseph and Hanna cannot be who Paul is referencing when he says "There is none righteous, no, not one".
Romans 3- 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Psalm 53-3, 5-9, 140-3 in NONE of the quotes by Paul is David speaking of the righteous. But rather the wicked, when they are conceived of Satan, that go astray, venturing out from his influential womb (Mystery Babylon, his church), doing his bidding and speaking his lies, (when he speaks a lie he speaketh of "his own" John 8-44).Does this sound like Joseph and Hanna? Nay, may God forbid such slanders upon the righteous and worthy! They use this false teaching to promote the Luther/Calvin lie of total depravity. I ask: Can we place Joseph and Hanna in this same category too? No!!!
but two of the many righteous men/women in the OT, I contend that Paul is not speaking of the righteous in verses 10-18 in Romans 3. But rather Paul is referencing the wicked in Psalms 14, 53, 5, 140, 10, 36 and Proverbs 1-16, 16-8, and Isaiah 59-7,8
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: (this is not the mouth of Mary for she praised God and spoke not curses to men)
Psalm 10-7 In this chapter it speaks of the wicked in their pride that persecute the righteous with curses of bitterness out of their mouths of which the apostle James warns against in chapter 3. Do we ever find Joseph and Hanna speaking such things? No!
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Here Paul is drawing in generalities from Proverbs 1-16, 16-8, and Isaiah 59-7,8. In all three chapters it is speaking of a heart that devises evil schemes and the wicked deeds that they madly scurry after. Their feet rush into battle. This sounds more like the wicked deeds of King Saul, and not Joseph and Hanna.
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes. (Paul cant be speaking about Mary, for she feared God)
Psalm 36-1 David has a message from God in his heart concerning the sinfulness of the wicked because there is no fear of God before their eyes. Did Joseph and Hanna have the fear of the Lord? Yes!!!
,
So, in brief, listed here is a concise reference of whom the apostle Paul is speaking about in verses 10-18. Sadly, not only do the Pundits claim that all of mankind is wicked, but they even apply this to those after conversion as well by falsely parroting "if we say we have no continuous sin in us we are liars the truth is not in us". Somehow overlooking such people as Nathaniel, Cornelius, and Lydia in the NT.
Romans 3
There is none good not one)? What is Paul referencing from the OT? The fact that Paul began his declaration by saying "it is written" goes completely ignored by most...
Every single PASSAGE Paul was quoting from in the old testament the wicked were CONTRASTED against the righteous.. I ask you: why by your own words do you always number yourself among the wicked…
Romans 3
1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. 5 But if our unrighteousness (the Jews as a nation, Isaiah 64) commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man) 6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?
7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner? 8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just. 9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; (the Jewish nation and the Gentile nations, not individuals per say) An example of this is found in Isaiah 64. Whereas the righteous prophet Isaiah was speaking to a wicked and perverse nation, Israel. In that all of her righteousness was as filthy rags fading away in their iniquities).
10 As it is written, (Paul is drawing from the OT) There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
In examining Paul's declarations to the Romans in chapter 3, let's use two OT examples, Joseph and Hanna, and see if their works are being referenced by Paul. Or could it be that Paul is speaking about other kinds of people? Possibly the wicked and not the righteous? Joseph and Hanna are but two of the many righteous men/women in the OT, I contend that Paul is not speaking of the righteous in verses 10-18 in Romans 3. But rather Paul is referencing the wicked in Psalms 14, 53, 5, 140, 10, 36 and Proverbs 1-16, 16-8, and Isaiah 59-7,8
Psalms 14-1, the wicked who say there is no God. Psalms 53-1 the wicked who are corrupt and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good. None of the wicked do good. Not in any of these verses in which Paul quotes from is he referring to the righteous. Like all chapters, and in both of these occasions, the righteous are always separated from the wicked. Would these OT quotes be speaking about the likes of Joseph, or Hanna etc? Absolutely not! These two Psalms are speaking about the fools who believe not God and the wicked that obey not God. If both Psalms are examined carefully we can find the wicked spoken of in contrast to the righteous. So, in drawing from these two Psalms, Paul is most defiantly speaking of the unrighteous, not the righteous. Therefore types like Joseph and Hanna cannot be who Paul is referencing when he says "There is none righteous, no, not one".
Romans 3- 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Psalm 53-3, 5-9, 140-3 in NONE of the quotes by Paul is David speaking of the righteous. But rather the wicked, when they are conceived of Satan, that go astray, venturing out from his influential womb (Mystery Babylon, his church), doing his bidding and speaking his lies, (when he speaks a lie he speaketh of "his own" John 8-44).Does this sound like Joseph and Hanna? Nay, may God forbid such slanders upon the righteous and worthy! They use this false teaching to promote the Luther/Calvin lie of total depravity. I ask: Can we place Joseph and Hanna in this same category too? No!!!
but two of the many righteous men/women in the OT, I contend that Paul is not speaking of the righteous in verses 10-18 in Romans 3. But rather Paul is referencing the wicked in Psalms 14, 53, 5, 140, 10, 36 and Proverbs 1-16, 16-8, and Isaiah 59-7,8
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: (this is not the mouth of Mary for she praised God and spoke not curses to men)
Psalm 10-7 In this chapter it speaks of the wicked in their pride that persecute the righteous with curses of bitterness out of their mouths of which the apostle James warns against in chapter 3. Do we ever find Joseph and Hanna speaking such things? No!
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Here Paul is drawing in generalities from Proverbs 1-16, 16-8, and Isaiah 59-7,8. In all three chapters it is speaking of a heart that devises evil schemes and the wicked deeds that they madly scurry after. Their feet rush into battle. This sounds more like the wicked deeds of King Saul, and not Joseph and Hanna.
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes. (Paul cant be speaking about Mary, for she feared God)
Psalm 36-1 David has a message from God in his heart concerning the sinfulness of the wicked because there is no fear of God before their eyes. Did Joseph and Hanna have the fear of the Lord? Yes!!!
,
So, in brief, listed here is a concise reference of whom the apostle Paul is speaking about in verses 10-18. Sadly, not only do the Pundits claim that all of mankind is wicked, but they even apply this to those after conversion as well by falsely parroting "if we say we have no continuous sin in us we are liars the truth is not in us". Somehow overlooking such people as Nathaniel, Cornelius, and Lydia in the NT.
Last edited by a moderator:
U
That is not what Paul is saying by any means.
He is very clearly stating that those Jews (the unbelievers) are blaspheming the gospel of salvation by grace alone through faith alone, by stating the law is still necessary since if we teach only grace then that is a license to sin.
He says that those that make grace a license to sin are then conversely stating the law is necessary for salvation when in reality the law saves no one and actually inflates sin.
He says those who pervert the solution for sin which is grace damnation is just because it reveals their unbelief in the ability of grace to be a solution to sin and not a sanction to sin.
To say grace is a sanction to sin is very serious.
He is very clearly stating that those Jews (the unbelievers) are blaspheming the gospel of salvation by grace alone through faith alone, by stating the law is still necessary since if we teach only grace then that is a license to sin.
He says that those that make grace a license to sin are then conversely stating the law is necessary for salvation when in reality the law saves no one and actually inflates sin.
He says those who pervert the solution for sin which is grace damnation is just because it reveals their unbelief in the ability of grace to be a solution to sin and not a sanction to sin.
To say grace is a sanction to sin is very serious.
You called me on nothing pal.....and my statement is proven within the context of the "above two verses" (post 174) which is not applicable unto the SAVED....PETER denied him 3 times.....DID he lose his salvation or repent? NO and NO.....he wen't out and wept, but not one verse states he lost anything and or was denied by Christ....and like I said in post 169 faith to faith as it is written.....maybe you should read instead of an allout assault on me with diatribe and accusations and false statements......
Such as....
DC can get away with this because he does not believe personal faith is even required for salvation<--LIE and false witness
your just getting upset because someone called you out on something you like to keep guarded about your theology<--Lie and false witness
since you adhere and cling to a counterfeit cross and a false doctrine that no personal faith is required for salvation<--Lie and false witness
All the while ignoring the 2 verses above it <---Lie and false witness
Now to answer your bloviating....
Is faith a spiritual gift? <---yes
Where does faith come from? <--God
Who deals out faith to men? <--God
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God OF or FROM INDICATES SOURCE PAL
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God That not of yourselves is GRAMATICALLY directed at the FAITH that saves PAL
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
διὰ πίστεως Χριστοῦ <---DIA PISTEOS CHRISTOU <---THROUGH FAITH OF CHRIST
ἐκ πίστεως Χριστοῦ <--EK PISTEOS CHRISTOU <--BY FAITH OF CHRIST
If you are going to engage me with ignorance and false statement and allegations don't bother, You have no clue what I believe and have done nothing but prove to all you assume much.....and yes indeed you have made the list of 7 in Proverbs 6 pal!
Such as....
DC can get away with this because he does not believe personal faith is even required for salvation<--LIE and false witness
your just getting upset because someone called you out on something you like to keep guarded about your theology<--Lie and false witness
since you adhere and cling to a counterfeit cross and a false doctrine that no personal faith is required for salvation<--Lie and false witness
All the while ignoring the 2 verses above it <---Lie and false witness
Now to answer your bloviating....
Is faith a spiritual gift? <---yes
Where does faith come from? <--God
Who deals out faith to men? <--God
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God OF or FROM INDICATES SOURCE PAL
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God That not of yourselves is GRAMATICALLY directed at the FAITH that saves PAL
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
διὰ πίστεως Χριστοῦ <---DIA PISTEOS CHRISTOU <---THROUGH FAITH OF CHRIST
ἐκ πίστεως Χριστοῦ <--EK PISTEOS CHRISTOU <--BY FAITH OF CHRIST
If you are going to engage me with ignorance and false statement and allegations don't bother, You have no clue what I believe and have done nothing but prove to all you assume much.....and yes indeed you have made the list of 7 in Proverbs 6 pal!
Another one that makes the proverbs 6 list......I judge no one, only their false doctrine and dogma by the word...Paul said those who add works to faith for salvation or to complete salvation are believing and pushing a false gospel with no power and one that makes the pusher or believer in such foolish and bewitched....take it up with him.......
First all let me ask was Peter giving up on Christ and walking away or did he just experience a weak faith moment? Just because one is weak in faith doesn't mean they are denying what Christ did. Obviously a weak faith is more prone to be swayed by the waves in different directions while evil acts on moments if weak faith. Just how Peter was filled with pride and Jesus says get behind me satan. Weak faith is a dangerous place to be because you are more open to attacks of evil. The mission to destroy and kill. People who remain in weak faith are more prone to one day question the existence of God or be drawn into false teaching.
You take example of a disciple who was following Jesus and try to compare it to all weak faith situations.
Peter is a great example of what those weak in faith shall do when sinking in lifes troubles and lies. They should cry out Lord save me. Or when Jesus was teaching parables at a Pharisees house the disciples ask Jesus to increase their faith.
You take example of a disciple who was following Jesus and try to compare it to all weak faith situations.
Peter is a great example of what those weak in faith shall do when sinking in lifes troubles and lies. They should cry out Lord save me. Or when Jesus was teaching parables at a Pharisees house the disciples ask Jesus to increase their faith.
AMEN.....HONESTY HERE IN THIS POST.............see the truth is simple....those who believe in eternal security CONSTANTLY get accused of this falsely NON STOP....funny thing is....those who believe in works or maintaining salvation dia some work LIE every time they accuse us of this.....wonder how that helps their working for dogma.......do they lose their salvation when they falsely accuse.....???
We know Peter went away and wept
Luke 22:61-62
At that moment the Lord turned and looked at Peter. Suddenly, the Lord’s words flashed through Peter’s mind: “Before the rooster crows tomorrow morning, you will deny three times that you even know me.” And Peter left the courtyard, weeping bitterly.
Oh my goodness, Jesus looks at Peter. I would not want to have been in that situation.
This was a man on man scenario, 2 physical people.
I think we can apply this scenario today. We stumble, deny, lack faith.
Jesus is bigger than us, greater than us and yet is gentle and restoring.
John 21:15-17
Peter’s Restoration
After breakfast Jesus asked Simon Peter, “Simon son of John, do you love me more than these?”
“Yes, Lord,” Peter replied, “you know I love you.”
“Then feed my lambs,” Jesus told him.
Jesus repeated the question: “Simon son of John, do you love me?”
“Yes, Lord,” Peter said, “you know I love you.”
“Then take care of my sheep,” Jesus said.
A third time he asked him, “Simon son of John, do you love me?”
Peter was hurt that Jesus asked the question a third time. He said, “Lord, you know everything. You know that I love you.”
Jesus said, “Then feed my sheep.
Luke 22:61-62
At that moment the Lord turned and looked at Peter. Suddenly, the Lord’s words flashed through Peter’s mind: “Before the rooster crows tomorrow morning, you will deny three times that you even know me.” And Peter left the courtyard, weeping bitterly.
Oh my goodness, Jesus looks at Peter. I would not want to have been in that situation.
This was a man on man scenario, 2 physical people.
I think we can apply this scenario today. We stumble, deny, lack faith.
Jesus is bigger than us, greater than us and yet is gentle and restoring.
John 21:15-17
Peter’s Restoration
After breakfast Jesus asked Simon Peter, “Simon son of John, do you love me more than these?”
“Yes, Lord,” Peter replied, “you know I love you.”
“Then feed my lambs,” Jesus told him.
Jesus repeated the question: “Simon son of John, do you love me?”
“Yes, Lord,” Peter said, “you know I love you.”
“Then take care of my sheep,” Jesus said.
A third time he asked him, “Simon son of John, do you love me?”
Peter was hurt that Jesus asked the question a third time. He said, “Lord, you know everything. You know that I love you.”
Jesus said, “Then feed my sheep.
You must not study much and or even read....Paul said to the saved, immersed church members in the churches in Galatia
For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.
JESUS even spoke to this.....
The SPIRIT is indeed willing, but the flesh is weak....
You really should take a break, trust Jesus, get some knowledge and then come back and engage people.....serious......!
For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.
JESUS even spoke to this.....
The SPIRIT is indeed willing, but the flesh is weak....
You really should take a break, trust Jesus, get some knowledge and then come back and engage people.....serious......!