Not By Works

[PeterJens]

Your issue is you believe that people are teaching a license to sin when you hear the terms "eternal security."

However that is not what's being said.

Basically it's the concept that no matter how dirty and how far you fall into the pigpen, God will always welcome you home with open arms.

That will send messages to warn you when you wander the wrong way and shine a light to call you back home.

The theological point is that you can never fall so deep into sin that God can't reach down and save you.

Should you toss yourself off the cliff of sin and debauchery and rely on God's promise to save you?

Jesus told Satan "do not tempt the Lord God"

When people sin, it grieves the Holy Spirit and God may just let the person die.

He is not required to save everyone.

Some people may think they are "elect" and can sin and live however they want. God tells us those people are not "elect" and are destined to hell because GOD CHASTENS ALL HIS CHILDREN.

If someone is not being convicted of their sins, they are probably not God's child.

Ariel - My issue is, you walk with Christ or you do not know Him.

You are claiming eternal security is "no matter how dirty and how far you fall into the pigpen, God will always welcome you home with open arms."

Here is the problem. If one becomes an apostate, blasphemer, there is no acceptance,
but for you it appears you are destined still for heaven.

For me there is only the walk or being lost.

And claiming you are saved/chosen no matter how you behave after the point of salvation,
is a license to do what you think is right in your own eyes.

The way of fools seems right to them, but the wise listen to advice.
Proverbs 12:15

A person may think their own ways are right, but the Lord weighs the heart.
Prov 21:2

In those days there was no king in Israel, but every man did that which was right in his own eyes.
Judges 17:6

 

[dcontroversal]

Ariel - Seriously you have got to get over yourself. Any group who come in and claim that
future sin is forgiven, repentance in the biblical sense is not needed, or confession, who reject
the sermon on the mount is for believers in every part, are not sound. Now it is a belief system
which one can talk about in theological terms.

Individuals will sign up to various aspects of it, or not. We are talking about this aspect.
Now glorification, the turning of struggling believers into a perfected new creation, I can see.

But compromise with sexual immorality or evil deeds is not a biblical position.
Disowning believers because they do not accept a form of security equally is not biblical.

I would also hold that there is no hope for those who have lost their faith and turned away.
If they come back, amen, but the warning is they will find this impossible. Continuing sin destroys
the conscience and the heart.

How well we can walk as believers is in Pauls words, pleasing to our Father in heaven, in Holiness,
and purity.

Ariel, the real problem is you take it that I am attacking individuals, when rather I am trying to
establish a level of understanding and definition, so we know where we are.

You are so empathetic and identify with a group as if everything is personal, when actually truth
has no partiality.

It maybe over time, the "you are going to hell", "you are sending others to hell" will stop.
Saying people who stand on scripture and Christs victory in righteousness are evil, or preaching
legalism needs to be seen for what it is, animosity and hatred.
Those walking in the rights the cross has given us we should say amen to.

So I pray those who feel condemned by such language embrace the cross and love.

It is God’s will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality that each of you should learn to control your own body in a way that is holy and honorable 1 thess 4:3-4

For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. 1 thess 4:7

hold on to what is good, reject every kind of evil. 1 thess 5:21-22

If we can all agree this, then Amen, Praise the Lord.
Because within these phrases is the expectation of being able to achieve this not
defeat.

What you fail to understand.....

MY sin abounding-------->

God's Grace OUTBOUNDING my sin-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->

CHRIST PAID the ENTIRE SIN DEBT of ALL who are under the BLOOD BY FAITH.....what part of PAID IN FULL do you not comprehend?....must be the Government controlled schools in jolly ole England......explains a lot about your country and it's current situation.......

 

[dcontroversal]

lol, you are such a comedian. The real problem is in discernment. You are happy to label
everyone on the same criteria, without really knowing them or their faith.

Now what I find illuminating is the desire to defend position, like they are personal or attached
to oneself, rather than biblical insights into the truth.

As soon as you start accusing people of being evil or sinful or driven by spirits etc. you pass from
a theological discussion into personal abuse. At what point does this abuse not take you over
and turn into hatred, animosity, hurt and a desire to destroy people rather than love them?

I have seen anger expressed, a desire to say things that would get one banned, yet this is from
the Holy Spirit and not the flesh? The fruits of the Spirit are,

the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. gal 5:22-23

So how is, walking in righteousness and finding Gods grace and love, overcoming sinful
behaviour, and the passions of the flesh, evil and sending people to hell or a terrible sin?

How is anything to do with cake taking or fluff ball related to this?
Are you growing in maturity or deeper into animosity?

I know what you are likely to respond, but my friend and I hope brother in Christ,
you take time to consider that this animosity is not taking over your heart.

I will say it again in ENGLISH.....YOU DO SPEAK and UNDERSTAND ENGLISH right.....??

I hate no one in here....It is your false pseudo café blend of doctrine that I cannot stand......you claim one thing and push something entirely different...........end of story...................like it or not.....so......NO one is condemning the bolded...and no one is saying the UNDERLINED......it is the fact that you....

a. Imply you are without sin
b. Imply we teach a do as you please gospel
c. Imply one can lose salvation
d. Imply that we are not saved because we believe in eternal security based upon grace thru faith salvation
e. Imply we teach the underlined at the expense of the bolded above
f. AND YOU blend faith and works for SALVATION which is FALSE

 

[dcontroversal]

Don't bother with Ariel..... she's just following her script.

This whole thread is looking like a well oiled machine.

Your actions in here make the script stay alive..... you're feeding it.

It would fall apart if you & a couple of others just shut down & let it go.

Why not post what you believe instead of vitriol, bloviating and carefully calculated personal attacks..........??

 

[graceNpeace]

HAHAH you forgot MATE ahahhaahha No Worries MATE Love Stralia.....just got back from a 26 day stay, made 6 trips last couple years and spent 5 months down under.....my second country.....

I am a bit of a mongrel actually - I am originally from South Africa but have been in Oz for a little over twenty years.
Folks back in South Africa think I speak Strine, but here in OZ everyone thinks I speak, and write, like an English Professor.
A hopeless mess I think!!

 

[dcontroversal]

There is a syndrome that people have when kidnapped, that they take on the identity and outlook
of their captors. If a salesman comes to your door with the idea of selling anything, the number one
idea is to emotionally identify with you, so that you trust them. They then switch to the subject of
the thing they are selling and treat any criticism as a personal attack.

Now the way you counter act this effect is just shine a light on what is going on.

Cults do this. The way they work is to absorb you into the group by emotional bonding and then you
just accept the ideas you are being given without any objective critical discussion. This is how you
get absorbed, and find you believe the craziest ideas without even realising you have been conned.

So for me the biggest idea is future sin forgiven. It sounds plausible in the theoretical sense, but
actually denies free will, sinful rebellion and reconciliation to God, repentance and faith.

and the bolded denies....

a. It is finished
b. Where sin abounds, GRACE did mush more abound
c. When I see the blood I will pass over you
d. I have washed you and made you clean
e. The present continuing result from a past completed action as applied unto salvation
f. Verb tense
g. The promises of Jesus
h. The imputed righteousness of Christ
I. The ongoing conflict between the BORN again spirit and the dead body of flesh
J. The scape goat
k. The eternal aspect of what GOD does
l. The words of Paul at the end of his run and being the number 1 chief sinner among men (in light of Christ)
m. The mediation of Jesus as our (one along side)
n. The eternal priesthood of Jesus
o. The application of John's words in 1st John

I would need like 5 pages to list ALL the truths...............................

 

[PeterJens]

?????

Let me take this on a personal level which you actually want me to do.
You do not accept g7, but are happy to embrace dc and eg though they openly support
all g7 holds to. Do you not see a total contradiction here which undermines your rosy painted
picture?

In my discussions with various people, I always found it odd when they denied real faith, but
seemed to believe the same doctrines I did. What I discovered in the hierarchy of beliefs one
would stand out that changes everything.

So JW's Christ is created. SDA have a different view of the cross and law, HG future sin forgiven,
rcc, sacremental view of redemption etc.

We have a lot in common, but fellowship stops at these points because it changes who Christ is
and what salvation and our walk is.

Now in the HG view of faith, this is the culmination of WOF, prosperity + wealth, Latter reign all mixed
together. People accept various sub sets of the whole set of outlooks, and some are in flux.

What I have learnt is Preterism and Total Inability doctrines which are illuminating. Equally imputed
righteousness or transferred sin and righteousness, are interesting concepts and exploration of the
different views very educational.

Now I stand where I stand, and that is good enough for me. God bless you, and I trust the Lord
is blessing you in your strategies at discernment etc.

By the way insult, tell me my outlooks and points of view, my failures and my successes, they are
all a blessing to me, because I can learn from it all, and I would much rather have total honesty
than hiding under a shell. I will not take offence, because the love Christ has place in me is greater
than the world, Amen, Halleluyah. God bless.

 

[dcontroversal]

Heavy statement there.

Now, looking at the flip side, who gives growth to evil?

Most folks say Satan is a polar opposite of God, but..... he copies just about everything God does.

Jesus says "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God."

Who "blesses" the warmakers? Who magnifies the arguments? Who wants conflict?

Be sure of this, that as soon as God's children quits feeding the evil, the argument shall cease, & Satan will have no "glory".

In some cases, silence is the greatest weapon of all. It will bring an argument down when nothing else will.

Let's break this down.....

A. Point 1...You compare Satan to GOD <----false and blasphemous
B. Point 2...You quote a scripture, ask a question to set up points 3 and 4
C. Point 3...You contradict the scripture you gave and underlined, applied God giving growth to his children and his children giving growth to evil (see bolded quote below)<----FALSE, Misleading and as evil as can be
D. Point 4...You obviously distinguish between yourself, Peter etc. and all those who you disagree with and in so doing, judge the salvation of those you disagree with which you hypocritically have condemned in the past
E. Point 5....God does not call US to silence....we are to always be ready to oppose false dogma............

but God gave the growth. 7So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth

 

[dcontroversal]

Here is an easy test...

Who agrees with these words

.

If you disagree please state why. Thanks.

Personally if this was all that was posted:

God wills for us to be sanctified and holy!

I would say, Amen!

Who disagrees with the word of God........they are indeed the word of God, and greater is he that is in us than he that is in the world.....

 

[PeterJens]

I will say it again in ENGLISH.....YOU DO SPEAK and UNDERSTAND ENGLISH right.....??

I hate no one in here....It is your false pseudo café blend of doctrine that I cannot stand......you claim one thing and push something entirely different...........end of story...................like it or not.....so......NO one is condemning the bolded...and no one is saying the UNDERLINED......it is the fact that you....

a. Imply you are without sin
b. Imply we teach a do as you please gospel
c. Imply one can lose salvation
d. Imply that we are not saved because we believe in eternal security based upon grace thru faith salvation
e. Imply we teach the underlined at the expense of the bolded above
f. AND YOU blend faith and works for SALVATION which is FALSE

dc - I imply nothing, it is you who are implying things. Very dangerous to imply ideas,
you have to read what people write.

Ideas work in layers, get the layers different, and you result in different conclusions.
We can believe 99% the same things, and one concept, placed differently creates all your
implied ideas. But the truth is this one little change.

Let me put it like this. If you become king of a country, own it all, you can do what you like,
you will chose what to do on your own ideas and no one elses because it is up to you.

That is what lawless means, without a moral exterior code.

If you have no code that is where you are. If you cannot see this then there is little left to
say, because we will never agree and you will never accept most of scripture.

 

[PeterJens]

and the bolded denies....

a. It is finished
b. Where sin abounds, GRACE did mush more abound
c. When I see the blood I will pass over you
d. I have washed you and made you clean
e. The present continuing result from a past completed action as applied unto salvation
f. Verb tense
g. The promises of Jesus
h. The imputed righteousness of Christ
I. The ongoing conflict between the BORN again spirit and the dead body of flesh
J. The scape goat
k. The eternal aspect of what GOD does
l. The words of Paul at the end of his run and being the number 1 chief sinner among men (in light of Christ)
m. The mediation of Jesus as our (one along side)
n. The eternal priesthood of Jesus
o. The application of John's words in 1st John

I would need like 5 pages to list ALL the truths...............................

dc - all you are saying is just everything is denied if future sin is not forgiven.

It is obvious that this is your faith position and therefore you disown 99% of evangelical
experience. Thank you for confirming the extreme nature of your theology.

 

[Grace777x70]

The work of Christ for righteousness and the complete forgiveness of sins to those of us who are in Christ is a stumbling block to the self-righteous and humanistic belief system. It is offensive to us because it exposes their own self-righteousness and unbelief in Christ's work on the cross and resurrection.

Knowing that we are completely forgiven because of Christ's sacrifice makes us want to run to the Father for grace to walk free of sinning because we know that they are forgiven.

That does not make us want to go out and sin all we want as the carnal/religious mind thinks and accuses others of wanting to do.

It does the complete opposite. Jesus said "He who is forgiven much - loves much." It wants us to grow in the grace and knowledge of God and this is pleasing to Him. We have a new nature now.

We are a new creation in Christ - created in righteousness and holiness.

Living by the flesh does not stop making us a new creation in Christ. It makes us deceived by sin and distorts our view of the Lord's love and grace towards us , others and ourselves and will bring some sort of destruction/death in this life on earth.

Take up shooting heroin in our arms and the reality of this truth will be evident quickly.

As we learn to walk by the spirit instead of the flesh - then we experience God's kind of life in our lives.

I have found the very same thing happening in my life. The more I see Christ and what He has done - and the more I agree with His work ( confess - means to say the same thing ) - the more He becomes manifested in my life and the things of the flesh just have fallen off like dead leaves on a branch.

Transformation is really the emerging new man that is in Christ being manifested in our bodies while we are here on this earth.

This transformation of what already is in us in Christ in our new creation ( It is not called a "new evolution" ) can be seen by man as our minds get renewed to the truth of Christ's work for us and in us. Rom. 12:2

We are simply "being" who we already are when we "put on Christ".

The new man in Christ is like the invisible man - when he put clothes on, people could then see him. We put on Christ and people see the new man in Christ manifested and God gets glorified.

This all happens by grace through faith in what Christ has already done and we participate in it with Him for it is God who is at work in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure. He will be faithful to us. Phil. 2:13

We are transformed by the Holy Spirit as we behold the glory/goodness of the Lord as in a mirror. 2 Cor. 3:17-18 What do you see when you look into a mirror? We are joined as one spirit with the Lord. 1 Cor. 6:17

It's in knowing our "union" with the Lord as one and in "communing" with the Lord because of this union where the real Christian life is lived and it all starts knowing that Jesus has taken away the sin of the world and that "in Him" we have redemption - the forgiveness of sins.

 

[dcontroversal]

dc - I imply nothing, it is you who are implying things. Very dangerous to imply ideas,
you have to read what people write.

Ideas work in layers, get the layers different, and you result in different conclusions.
We can believe 99% the same things, and one concept, placed differently creates all your
implied ideas. But the truth is this one little change.

Let me put it like this. If you become king of a country, own it all, you can do what you like,
you will chose what to do on your own ideas and no one elses because it is up to you.

That is what lawless means, without a moral exterior code.

If you have no code that is where you are. If you cannot see this then there is little left to
say, because we will never agree and you will never accept most of scripture.

Funny thing....YOU do exactly what you accuse of in this post........especially the bolded.....the scriptures you reject and or twist is what makes your dogma false.......

 

[dcontroversal]

dc - all you are saying is just everything is denied if future sin is not forgiven.

It is obvious that this is your faith position and therefore you disown 99% of evangelical
experience. Thank you for confirming the extreme nature of your theology.

Thanks for proving you do not understand the truth...every point I made bears out concerning our sin and how it is dealt with and or what bearing it may or may not have on our stance before God......simple truth...your gospel does not save nor give insight.......back to the same old application of Galatians 1 and 3.....a gospel of a different kind, no power to save, double cursed = no salvation....no salvation = no ability to understand the word!

FAITH PLUS ANYTHING to gain or keep salvation = lost

 

[dcontroversal]

The work of Christ for righteousness and the complete forgiveness of sins to those of us who are in Christ is a stumbling block to the self-righteous and humanistic belief system. It is offensive to us because it exposes their own self-righteousness and unbelief in Christ's work on the cross and resurrection.

Knowing that we are completely forgiven because of Christ's sacrifice makes us want to run to the Father for grace to walk free of sinning because we know that they are forgiven.

That does not make us want to go out and sin all we want as the carnal/religious mind thinks and accuses others of wanting to do.

It does the complete opposite. Jesus said "He who is forgiven much - loves much." It wants us to grow in the grace and knowledge of God and this is pleasing to Him. We have a new nature now.

We are a new creation in Christ - created in righteousness and holiness.

Living by the flesh does not stop making us a new creation in Christ. It makes us deceived by sin and distorts our view of the Lord's love and grace towards us , others and ourselves and will bring some sort of destruction/death in this life on earth.

Take up shooting heroin in our arms and the reality of this truth will be evident quickly.

As we learn to walk by the spirit instead of the flesh - then we experience God's kind of life in our lives.

I have found the very same thing happening in my life. The more I see Christ and what He has done - and the more I agree with His work ( confess - means to say the same thing ) - the more He becomes manifested in my life and the things of the flesh just have fallen off like dead leaves on a branch.

Transformation is really the emerging new man that is in Christ being manifested in our bodies while we are here on this earth.

This transformation of what already is in us in Christ in our new creation ( It is not called a "new evolution" ) can be seen by man as our minds get renewed to the truth of Christ's work for us and in us. Rom. 12:2

We are simply "being" who we already are when we "put on Christ".

The new man in Christ is like the invisible man - when he put clothes on, people could then see him. We put on Christ and people see the new man in Christ manifested and God gets glorified.

This all happens by grace through faith in what Christ has already done and we participate in it with Him for it is God who is at work in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure. He will be faithful to us. Phil. 2:13

We are transformed by the Holy Spirit as we behold the glory/goodness of the Lord as in a mirror. 2 Cor. 3:17-18 What do you see when you look into a mirror? We are joined as one spirit with the Lord. 1 Cor. 6:17

It's in knowing our "union" with the Lord as one and in "communing" with the Lord because of this union where the real Christian life is lived and it all starts knowing that Jesus has taken away the sin of the world and that "in Him" we have redemption - the forgiveness of sins.

Amen.....and the tragic thing...the Pharisees went to the ground denying the truth, believing they were right and refusing to acknowledge the simplistic truth of total redemption and forgiveness that is found in faith and acknowledging Jesus and his sacrifice.....post 11471

 

[Grace777x70]

Amen.....and the tragic thing...the Pharisees went to the ground denying the truth, believing they were right and refusing to acknowledge the simplistic truth of total redemption and forgiveness that is found in faith and acknowledging Jesus and his sacrifice.....post 11471

Amen....the understanding of those that are in Christ and Christ is in them - that they have the forgiveness of sins is paramount in walking free of sinning. The natural humanistic mindset that is the belief system of this world cannot accept the things of Christ's work and thus they find it offensive.

It is "finished" - It's time to repent and believe in the gospel just like Jesus said in Mark 1:15. The gospel which means "the nearly too good to be true news " is called good news for a reason. It has already been done.

 

[garee]

There is a syndrome that people have when kidnapped, that they take on the identity and outlook
of their captors. If a salesman comes to your door with the idea of selling anything, the number one
idea is to emotionally identify with you, so that you trust them. They then switch to the subject of
the thing they are selling and treat any criticism as a personal attack.

Now the way you counter act this effect is just shine a light on what is going on.

Cults do this. The way they work is to absorb you into the group by emotional bonding and then you
just accept the ideas you are being given without any objective critical discussion. This is how you
get absorbed, and find you believe the craziest ideas without even realising you have been conned.

So for me the biggest idea is future sin forgiven. It sounds plausible in the theoretical sense, but
actually denies free will, sinful rebellion and reconciliation to God, repentance and faith.

Free will to a believer (new creature) is to do the will of another person, (God), in resepct to the faith of Christ(coming from) as a labor of His love .Not faith in or towards Him in respect to the dead works over and over.Because you seem to be fearfull about the forgiveess of future sins as if Christ who began the good work of salvation will leave you half way through with no guide .


It would seem from my perpestive like in Hebrew 4 you are not mixing faith in what you hear or see coming from the scrpitures, butrather have a faith in respect to what you perform . Its what the apostate Jews and Catholics(no faith) do making the grace of God without effect..Our suffering to do his will by following the commandment by doing a good work is not accerditd with and therfore added to Christ's suffering . It would seem you are following a law of the fathers as the things of men. A clear distintion between the things of God and those of men must be made.

Phi 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;


Again our suffering to do His will does not add to His suufering making the rightousness a two fold work.

 

[PeterJens]

As a side note, Ariel wants to defend dc and say he is just a miss-understood believer
who actually believes normal, traditional faith and salvation.

It is literally impossible to do this and then claim not accepting future sin forgiven is
to apostate every other belief of the Christian faith.

Wesley called future sin forgiven theology as a license to sin.

For Wesley, the early Reformers’ view of the substitutionary atonement leads to the unavoidable conclusion that Christ’s righteousness is imputed to the believer’s past, present, and future sins. When James Hervey asked, “If [Christ] was our substitute as to penal sufferings, why not as to justifying obedience?” Wesley tartly responded, “This is not expressly asserted [in the scriptures].” In addition, he expressly asserted that “the metaphysical doctrine of Im*puted Righteousness leads not to repentance but to licentiousness” (Letter to James Hervey, Oct. 15, 1756)

Wesley did not want people to believe that the blood of Christ saved them so they could then go live like the devil. This is obviously a genuine and valid concern. Reformation theology teaches that believers are chosen and called by God, and they will become righteous through Christ’s sanctifying work after having been declared righteous because of Christ (imputed justification). For the Calvinist, a believer will grow naturally because they are new creatures. Under the substitution/imputation model of the atonement, licentious living could never occur because the elect are naturally molded into the image of God after their salvation has been assured. On the other hand, Wesley’s satisfaction model, in an effort to avoid antinomianism, required that the believer produce sanctified works in order to be assured of salvation.

Sabbatismos Ministries: Finding Our Rest in Christ - John Wesley on the Atonement

This dispute between Wesley and others summarises the very positions being put
here today. It is also why it is more of a choice of position rather than a defined
right and wrong issue.

 

[PeterJens]

Funny thing....YOU do exactly what you accuse of in this post........especially the bolded.....the scriptures you reject and or twist is what makes your dogma false.......

dc - until you can see both sides of this argument, which have historical foundations,
then as I said there is little to talk about.

Just making bland statements and not actually addressing the definition of lawlessness,
demonstrates my problem.

I do not reject any scriptures, rather it is the interpretation and context we disagree on.
And all these position rely on various key assumptions. Are you able to be honest at this
level. You claim to have studied in college theology, so can you at least be this honest?

 

[Ariel82]

I am a bit of a mongrel actually - I am originally from South Africa but have been in Oz for a little over twenty years.
Folks back in South Africa think I speak Strine, but here in OZ everyone thinks I speak, and write, like an English Professor.
A hopeless mess I think!!

I love South Africa, it's a beautiful country and I love the music and church services there.