Not By Works

[dcontroversal]

PeterJens...do you lose respect from or for the people you constant insist on misrepresenting?

.

If you think my posts are a joke and I am playing around, then you obviously don't know me or have much discernment.

All I see is you moving the goal post yet again and avoiding the issues of what this thread is meant to stand for and against.

Wesley believed and taught that believers have Christ imputed righteousness.

The Wesley Center Online: Sermon 20 - The Lord Our Righteousness

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Exactly why I rarely lead his posts.......cake takers and fluff balls..........no ability to be honest and or truthful.....a constant shift of blame, constantly trying to turn the narrative etc........

 

[Ariel82]

I think a lot of people miss the fact that we must view it the way God views it....verb tense and from God's perspective he sees everything as a done deal.....Our salvation, justification, glorification etc. in the eyes of God are a completed action, a done deal, a finished creation even though we have to deal with being bound by time and allowing our lives to play out and come to completion.......

For God it's a done deal but for us, it's in the future and that is what we place our hope in: the future God promise us when we will be whole and holy and forever in His presence with glorified bodies.

However we need to address the present and who we are NOW, not just who we will become.

 

[PeterJens]

As an observation, the gospel is simple.
Sinners need to repent of sin and walk in love and righteousness.
They get convicted, repent, confess and have faith in the cross for the forgiveness of sins.
They then grow in fellowship and communion with Christ and His body the church.
There main focus is on good works and preaching the word, walking in love and faith.

Sanctification and transformation, dealing with sin, is being open and honest and letting
Gods word and the Holy Spirit convict, cleanse and take us through His ways.

What is amazing to me is a group who seemingly have good theology and faith, yet would
condemn and fight other believers as if they are unbelievers and dispute emphasis and details
which become very unclear. Worst still they accuse people of being evil, hypocrites, pharisees,
and the worst projections they can invent, and then say, they are innocent.

Now I neither understand this or can relate to.

It is like saying I am living in my carnal mind as in reality I walk in the Spirit.

To these believers I am a lost self justifying hypocrite trying to show God how
good I am. It does not matter what I share or my love of Christ or my conviction
and knowledge of the word.

But it is no surprise because all they guys are dyed in the wool evangelicals who
have converted into their new outlook.

And they are here to make new converts and put the legalists in their place.
So welcome to the age of the anti-legalist, anti-law, anti-religion.

It is so anti, add a few more words and you know where it will end up.

 

[Ariel82]

Hello mirror...can you recognize your log in your eye?

.

What is amazing to me is a group who seemingly have good theology and faith, yet would
condemn and fight other believers as if they are unbelievers and dispute emphasis and details
which become very unclear. Worst still they accuse people of being evil, hypocrites, pharisees,
and the worst projections they can invent, and then say, they are innocent.

Now I neither understand this or can relate to..

What projections did we get today? Atheist?


Before we had the murdering Islamic strawmen, by one person.,.

Before that what did we get?

Oh the sin as much as you want, free ticket to hell guy.,,claiming to be Christian,

 

[PeterJens]

PeterJens...do you lose respect from or for the people you constant insist on misrepresenting?
.
If you think my posts are a joke and I am playing around, then you obviously don't know me or have much discernment.
All I see is you moving the goal post yet again and avoiding the issues of what this thread is meant to stand for and against.
Wesley believed and taught that believers have Christ imputed righteousness.
The Wesley Center Online: Sermon 20 - The Lord Our Righteousness
.

You believe in your own abilities a lot.

Ariel, I know I am slow to catch on, but there are a lot of commentators who disagree with you
over Wesley. Now I have read a little and I agree with their conclusions.

If you can be wrong about this and you are a methodists, I begin to doubt your "discernment about
things you do not know or understand.

And I am not moving goal posts. I state what I believe, we are saved through faith in Christ,
yet you choose to ignore my statements.

Not a good testimony to someone who claims to listen.
You miss basic fundamental differences in you "friends" but I think you are actually closer to
them than to Wesley, which is ironic. It would explain your split allegiance.

 

[dcontroversal]

For God it's a done deal but for us, it's in the future and that is what we place our hope in: the future God promise us when we will be whole and holy and forever in His presence with glorified bodies.

However we need to address the present and who we are NOW, not just who we will become.

And the hope the bible portrays....a confident expectation of something GUARANTEED

 

[PeterJens]

Hello mirror...can you recognize your log in your eye?
.
What projections did we get today? Atheist?
Before we had the murdering Islamic strawmen, by one person.,.
Before that what did we get?
Oh the sin as much as you want, free ticket to hell guy.,,claiming to be Christian,

Atheist is pointing out anti religion, lawlessness is what these guys preach, 100% correct.
Fanaticism to a cause, is the Islamic group. Again 100% correct, when you put your faith
above conscience and conviction of sin.

But this is my point, you discern very little if these blindingly obvious parrallels are there
and you think they are inventions. So to my mind you just seal your own belief in insight
to zero. You are a nice empathetic person, but theology requires more than that.

Are you prepared to accept certain principles or ideas corrupt people and govenments 100%
Communism, fascism, radical Islam, Calvanism, Lutherinism, Catholicism.

People have been killed for disagreeing with these belief systems through history.

And the ideas are the problem so opposing them actually matters, because once established
they are much harder to shake. Look at ISIS for a good example, or Taliban. Both ignore
normal loving human relationships, conscience and convictions along with free speech.

 

[Ariel82]

What you have problems understanding is the topic at hand and the fact we might not agree on everything being discussed but the fact is traditional Christianity teaches

that justification is by Faith alone and NOT by works.

DO YOU AGREE OR DISAGREE?

It do you change the topic to something you can argue about?

 

[PeterJens]

What you have problems understanding is the topic at hand and the fact we might not agree on everything being discussed but the fact is traditional Christianity teaches

that justification is by Faith alone and NOT by works.

DO YOU AGREE OR DISAGREE?

It do you change the topic to something you can argue about?

I agree to justification by faith shown by works.

 

[Ariel82]

Can you say amen to this statement?

.

. I say again, not for the sake of anything in them, or done by them, of their own righteousness or works: "Not for works of righteousness which we have done, but of his own mercy he saved us." "By grace ye are saved through faith, -- not of works, lest any man should boast;" but wholly and solely for the sake of what Christ hath done and suffered for us. We are "justified freely by his grace, through the redemption that is in Jesus Christ." And this is not only the means of our obtaining the favour of God, but of our continuing therein. It is thus we come to God at first; it is by the same we come unto him ever after. We walk in one and the same new and living way, till our spirit returns to God..

Or are you just here to pick a fight?

 

[dcontroversal]

What you have problems understanding is the topic at hand and the fact we might not agree on everything being discussed but the fact is traditional Christianity teaches

that justification is by Faith alone and NOT by works.

DO YOU AGREE OR DISAGREE?

It do you change the topic to something you can argue about?

He might state that he believes that and then contradict it by the rest of his theology......

 

[Ariel82]

He might state that he believes that and then contradict it by the rest of his theology......

Maybe he just has a hard time expressing his theology? Or maybe the Holy Spirit will move.

 

[dcontroversal]

I agree to justification by faith shown by works.

Exactly why your theology is false.......and proves you teach a working for salvation which is false

PAUL was clear...

WE CONCLUDE and MAN is justified by FAITH without the DEEDS OF THE LAW (WORKS)

O FOOLISH GALATIANS, WHO HAS BEWITCHED YOU

HAVING begun in the SPIRIT are you now made COMPLETE by WORKS...........FOOLISH and BEWITCHED and those who push this are false teachers and their message is DOUBLE CURSED

 

[dcontroversal]

Maybe he just has a hard time expressing his theology? Or maybe the Holy Spirit will move.

Post 11509 DIRECTLY contradicts PAUL in ROMANS and GALATIANS......he teaches a works based self justification....false

 

[JIMBO43]

How does a christian grow? By God's power, not ours.

1Cor 3:1But I, brothers,[SUP]a[/SUP] could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ. 2I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready, 3for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way? 4For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not being merely human?5What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each. 6I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. 7So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth. 8He who plants and he who waters are one, and each will receive his wages according to his labor. 9For we are God’s fellow workers. You are God’s field, God’s building.

Heavy statement there.

Now, looking at the flip side, who gives growth to evil?

Most folks say Satan is a polar opposite of God, but..... he copies just about everything God does.

Jesus says "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God."

Who "blesses" the warmakers? Who magnifies the arguments? Who wants conflict?

Be sure of this, that as soon as God's children quits feeding the evil, the argument shall cease, & Satan will have no "glory".

In some cases, silence is the greatest weapon of all. It will bring an argument down when nothing else will.

Its conflict here all the time stephen. lols we had a of a bit of a one but hey no big deal.

Long forgotten...


Christianity is a tochy sencitive walk for some coz they cant stand to see the word of God trashed,,,,,,,,,,,, i can undestand this.

Its one thing hearing its another thing doing which i get too.......meaning......... we will get it wrong on trial on error... meaning we will learn by our mistakes..

Like mr maggoo suddenly just decked you and afterwards he was you best mate.

But mr bloggs wanted to be your mate coz he liked you. and wasnt after anything it took time tho for hime to trust you.

Anyhows mr church leader wasnt your mate he was your preacher who just condemed you,,,,,,, or was he ?

Was it you who felt he was condeming you ? noooooooooooooooooooo

Its common practice that if you feel condemed you are not walking rightly or you have unrepented sins its one or the other..

However to feel convicted is something else coz now we do speak to each other in spirit becoz now the spirit has been given we have a soul,,, what we speak to each other also enters are mind whis is a gateway to your soul..

What we need is some soul to soul music lols God bless america and all the southern baptists who have flipped lols..

 

[Ariel82]

What marks are in the soul of a person who has been born again?

1. Faith
2. Hope
3. Love

For those interested

The Wesley Center Online: Sermon 18 - The Marks Of The New Birth

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But as the question is of the deepest concern to every child of man; since, "except a man be born again," born of the Spirit, "he cannot see the kingdom of God;" I propose to lay down the marks of it in the plainest manner, just as I find them laid down in Scripture.

I. 1. The First of these, and the foundation of all the rest, is faith. So St. Paul, "Ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus." (Gal. 3:26.)

*****

The true, living, Christian faith, which whosoever hath, is born of God, is not only an assent, an act of the understanding; but a disposition, which God hath wrought in his heart; "a sure trust and confidence in God, that, through the merits of Christ, his sins are forgiven, and he reconciled to the favour of God." This implies, that a man first renounce himself; that, in order to be "found in Christ," to be accepted through him, he totally rejects all "confidence in the flesh;" that, "having nothing to pay," having no trust in his own works or righteousness of any kind, he comes to God as a lost, miserable, self-destroyed, self-condemned, undone, helpless sinner; as one whose mouth is utterly stopped, and who is altogether "guilty before God." Such a sense of sin, (commonly called despair, by those who speak evil of the things they know not,) together with a full conviction, such as no words can express, that of Christ only cometh our salvation, and an earnest desire of that salvation, must precede a living faith, a trust in Him, who "for us paid our ransom by his death, and fulfilled the law of his life." This faith then, whereby we are born of God, is "not only a belief of all the articles of our faith, but also a true confidence of the mercy of God, through our Lord Jesus Christ."

****

A Second scriptural mark of those who are born of God, is hope. Thus St. Peter, speaking to all the children of God who were then scattered abroad, saith, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which, according to his abundant mercy, hath begotten us again unto a lively hope." (1 Peter 1:3

*****
A Third scriptural mark of those who are born of God, and the greatest of all, is love; even "the love of God shed abroad in their hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto them." (Rom. 5:5.) "Because they are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son in their hearts, crying, Abba, Father!" (Gal. 4:6.)

.

 

[JIMBO43]

Justification can be an outward apearence to not just an inward one jus sayin but theres definately nothing justified about those who say theyve had there rapture allready...

Anyways lets just say that the proof is in the pudding and you can be judged by your works by fellow believers as well as God..

 

[Ariel82]

I agree to justification by faith shown by works.

How can you tell by this simple statement Dcon?

He could mean many things.

I believe a saving living faith leads to good works as the fruit of salvation.

Why do you jump to the conclusion that works are needed to be save?

 

[Ariel82]

Jimbo...the song currently singing in my soul is this one..

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DjNZf878ISQ


Hope it can bless your soul also.

 

[dcontroversal]

How can you tell by this simple statement Dcon?

He could mean many things.

I believe a saving living faith leads to good works as the fruit of salvation.

Why do you jump to the conclusion that works are needed to be save?

PAUL'S direct quote in Romans-->

WE CONCLUDE and MAN is justified by FAITH without the DEEDS OF THE LAW (WORKS)

HIS QUOTE

Originally Posted by PeterJens

I agree to justification by faith shown by works.

You tell me Ariel how I can assume what he teaches