Not By Works

[preacher4truth]

Ok guys, if the argument about a car wash is so useless and empty, why do you
even need to comment on it?

I snipped the Luke 18:11 portion of your response.

It is highly doubtful Peter, given the vast amount of posting and time you spend on here that you spend much if any time in Scripture.

Typically your entire day involves putting down others while speaking highly of yourself as if others don't understand Scripture outside of you or even walk with God.

 

[Ariel82]

Is that saving faith the one void of works as you claim it? How can you exercise something you reject and deny or even condemn? If your faith is without works, it is dead,vain & without a purpose so how could you possibly exercise it.

James 2:14-26

Because he says that saving faith is what saves and will produce works, the works is the FRUIT but Jesus is the Root....how does that message get lost?

 

[preacher4truth]

"Make the lie big, make it simple, and eventually they will believe it." - Adolf Hitler

So impersonal, so robotic..... copy/paste fluff & waffle.

Ate up with Free Grace Theology and that other unmentionable erroneous grace system.

 

[Ariel82]

Interesting idea

God calls us to a life of purity, holiness, love, righteousness.
If you respond by doing this empowered by the cross, the Holy Spirit and love working within you
this is not fulfilling the promise of the gospel but adding to it.

The whole argument is like saying if you take your car to the car wash and it is clean, by claiming
it is clean is adding to the effect of the car wash and denying the car wash washes the car clean.

This is clearly absurd, the reason you wash the car is to have a clean car, and a clean car proves
the car wash works. The opposite is also true, if you fail to be cleaned by the car wash, either
the car wash has failed or you did not actually go.

So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall! No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.
1 Cor 10:12-13

Now if we are fallen, walking continually in sin, unresolved there is no standing firm.
And temptation is not something we resist, because we just accept we are compromised.

So this passage assumes we are standing firm in righteousness and love.
Halleluyah.

You don't take into account that someone could have purposeful egged the car or thrown mud at it.

The outside of the car may still appear dirty but you see God doesn't run people through carwashs..., he cleanse us from the inside out.

Jesus told the Pharisees that they were whitewashed tombs..,,.so does your car wash vacuum out the inside of the car too?

Would you judge someone as lying about going to the carwashing their car got dirty driving to pick up their pregnant wife?

How long does a car stay clean before it needs another washing?

Who does the washing?

Who is driving?

 

[LoveGodForever]

Gods Word says.....

"Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember?" (Mark 8:18)

"Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. "And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them." (Matt 13:13-15)

"Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not: Fear ye not me? saith the LORD: will ye not tremble at my presence, which have placed the sand for the bound of the sea by a perpetual decree, that it cannot pass it: and though the waves thereof toss themselves, yet can they not prevail; though they roar, yet can they not pass over it? But this people hath a revolting and a rebellious heart; they are revolted and gone. Neither say they in their heart, Let us now fear the LORD our God, that gives rain, both the former and the latter, in his season: he reserves unto us the appointed weeks of the harvest. Your iniquities have turned away these things, and your sins have with held good things from you. For among my people are found wicked men: they lay wait, as he that set snares; they set a trap, they catch men. As a cage is full of birds, so are their houses full of deceit: therefore they are become great, and waxen rich. They are waxen fat, they shine: yea, they overpass the deeds of the wicked: they judge not the cause, the cause of the fatherless, yet they prosper; and the right of the needy do they not judge. Shall I not visit for these things? saith the LORD: shall not my soul be avenged on such a nation as this? A wonderful and horrible thing is committed in the land; The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?" (Jer 5:21-31)

 

[PeterJens]

I snipped the Luke 18:11 portion of your response.

It is highly doubtful Peter, given the vast amount of posting and time you spend on here that you spend much if any time in Scripture.

Typically your entire day involves putting down others while speaking highly of yourself as if others don't understand Scripture outside of you or even walk with God.

The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’
Luke 18:11-12

This does not relate to getting clean in a car wash or going to Christ.
I speak very little of myself, just ideas and scripture.

I find your condemnation of me interesting and empty. So I spend no time in scripture
or with God? Did not know you followed me so closely and have such insight, lol.

If this is the best have got, it is just so lame........

 

[Ariel82]

Jeremiah 9
23Thus says the LORD: “Let not the wise man boast in his wisdom, let not the mighty man boast in his might, let not the rich man boast in his riches, 24but let him who boasts boast in this, that he understands and knows me, that I am the LORD who practices steadfast love, justice, and righteousness in the earth. For in these things I delight, declares the LORD.”

Matthew 13

16But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear. 17For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

 

[PeterJens]

You don't take into account that someone could have purposeful egged the car or thrown mud at it.

The outside of the car may still appear dirty but you see God doesn't run people through carwashs..., he cleanse us from the inside out.

Jesus told the Pharisees that they were whitewashed tombs..,,.so does your car wash vacuum out the inside of the car too?

Would you judge someone as lying about going to the carwashing their car got dirty driving to pick up their pregnant wife?

How long does a car stay clean before it needs another washing?

Who does the washing?

Who is driving?

Ariel - I am creating an illustration about a simple point.

Fulfilling an action and proving you have fulfilled it is not adding to the action but testimony
of it.

That is the simple point being made. It is not more profound or deeper than that.
It takes time to understanding the language of another and how a chain of thought has a lot
of hidden assumptions that are actually flawed.

Jesus loves us and asks us to open the door to our hearts and walk with Him.
He is the word of life or as Hebrews says

The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.
Heb 1:3

What a King, what a Saviour, what a Lord.

 

[Ariel82]

Ariel - I am creating an illustration about a simple point.

Fulfilling an action and proving you have fulfilled it is not adding to the action but testimony
of it.

That is the simple point being made. It is not more profound or deeper than that.
It takes time to understanding the language of another and how a chain of thought has a lot
of hidden assumptions that are actually flawed.

Jesus loves us and asks us to open the door to our hearts and walk with Him.
He is the word of life or as Hebrews says

The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.
Heb 1:3

What a King, what a Saviour, what a Lord.

Ummm...yeah I was making a point too...did you get any of it?

Cuz you didn't address a single one of the points or questions I had with your story/illustration.

 

[Ariel82]

Mark 8
14Now they had forgotten to bring bread, and they had only one loaf with them in the boat. 15And he cautioned them, saying, “Watch out; beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the leaven of Herod.”b 16And they began discussing with one another the fact that they had no bread. 17And Jesus, aware of this, said to them, “Why are you discussing the fact that you have no bread? Do you not yet perceive or understand? Are your hearts hardened? 18Having eyes do you not see, and having ears do you not hear? And do you not remember? 19When I broke the five loaves for the five thousand, how many baskets full of broken pieces did you take up?” They said to him, “Twelve.” 20“And the seven for the four thousand, how many baskets full of broken pieces did you take up?” And they said to him, “Seven.” 21And he said to them, “Do you not yet understand?”

****


God always gave a message of hope in all his prophecies and messages to His people...Jesus called His disciples blind....but he didn't condemn them. He lovely explained and opened their eyes.

 

[PeterJens]

sadly people think they can redeem themselves. If they only knew

This is an interesting proposition.
Who is redeeming themselves?

The argument is so contorted.
Are we called to walk like Jesus? If the answer is no, then one has to explain away
the whole of the new testament that talks about a blameless walk, without reproach etc.

If the answer is yes, one has to explain the failure and the struggles that is part of
sanctification and whether there is final resolution to this.

For me there is hope when people can accept these two positions as being taught and followed.
I desire to understand why people follow either and to express the love Jesus has given me to
those in both camps. I am wise enough to know I do not know anyone just their rhetoric, but
am wary of those who think they know it all.

What speaks to my heart daily, is the letters of Paul, which pound out the same themes.
Walk in a way worthy of Christ, holiness, purity and blamelessness. Let His love flow through
and from you in everything you do, doing good works for the benefit of all.

But even in this, some will oppose and judge me. It seems these people do not know scripture
and it does not dwell in their hearts, or else they could not even think such things let alone express
them.

 

[PeterJens]

Ummm...yeah I was making a point too...did you get any of it?

Cuz you didn't address a single one of the points or questions I had with your story/illustration.

Ariel - You want to have answers to things beyond their point or purpose.
My position is some here want to openly condemn others, ridicule them as evil or false
teachers when they are sharing scripture and its reality.

I oppose this logic that condemns people because of their religious beliefs and not
their behaviour. The Lord condemns behaviour which indicates a failure in their beliefs.

What is ironic is how legalistic believers who have lost faith and then regained it in
free grace, end up condemning righteous aspirations of others.

This is shown by the continual accusation I claim I am perfect, without sin, but rather
I believe we can walk in purity and holiness before the Lord after being washed clean.

But too many just reject at any point they are clean, as if sin and its desires are something
one wants to cling on to or can never be freed from. For me this is unbelief in the power of
the cross. If I walk in the Spirit there is now no condemnation of me in Christ Jesus.

 

[dcontroversal]

Is that saving faith the one void of works as you claim it? How can you exercise something you reject and deny or even condemn? If your faith is without works, it is dead,vain & without a purpose so how could you possibly exercise it.

James 2:14-26 Faith and Deeds What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, “Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

This post proves you fail to understand 2 things because you are blinded by your working for dogma

a. What the bible teaches
b. What I have said

No sense is wasting my time with one who is ignorant willfully.

 

[dcontroversal]

Amen, James was differentiating between people who were hearers and does, vs people who were hearers but not doers of the word. He told them to test their faith, How can one CLAIM to have faiht, yet have no work They can't. If you do, your liars, and your faith is dead.

What james was NOT doing, was contradicting paul and saying works save us, Only that those of true faith WILL have work.

I know...both he and his pal cannot see the forest because of the religious, false working for "trees"...........blind to the fact that we both teach a believer will produce, but that the produce is the RESULT OF FAITH that saves.....

SAVED UNTO NOT SAVED BY...........

 

[dcontroversal]

eph 2 8-9. Past tense..

Titus 3: 5 Past tense.

I could name many many more

Why would you want to try to insewrt your own work or merit into the salvation of grace?

Simple....his Jesus is weak and cannot do what he said he would do.....his version proves a lack of saving faith..... Galatians 1 and 3

 

[dcontroversal]

just noise from someone who thinks they do not sin. nothing to see here. just more rhetoric with a verse thrown in to dress it up.

AMEN.....exactly why he is the only one I have blocked and rarely if ever respond to his rants and raves.....

 

[Seohce]

Because he says that saving faith is what saves and will produce works, the works is the FRUIT but Jesus is the Root....how does that message get lost?

Do you believe this verse Ariel or you also reject this?

John 6:28-29 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works god requires?” Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

 

[dcontroversal]

Every time someone posts James 2:20 by itself to try to make it look like we have to do works in order to remain saved - I will post about faith and works and salvation in Christ's finished work.

I am not ashamed of the gospel of the grace of God in Christ for in "it" is the power of God for salvation for everyone who believes. In "it" the righteousness of God is revealed!

We have a great salvation in Christ. In Him we have redemption - the forgiveness of sins. Repent and believe in the gospel just like Jesus said in Mark 1:15

He has nothing bro.....almost every post he makes is void of substance.....and he also believes in works and loss of salvation...both BIG lies that Satan has propagated dia his minions.....KEEP preaching and firing verses....

 

[Stephen63]

There are those that "say" we add works to our salvation.

Let me go "on the record" by saying nothing was added, we're simply obeying Christ our Shepherd as we're taught in scripture to..... and gladly so.

Those that "say" the first statement are liars. If the Admins want to say otherwise, they can prove it. After all, exemplary behavior & responsibility IS expected from our Admins, yes?

That said, just because the majority says something doesn't mean it's true.

During WWII, millions of people quoted Hitler & believed he was a great man, only to find out it was ALL a lie. So we have history to prove the majority has been deceived in the past.

When a lexicon has been cherry picked for evidence, and dozens of scriptures contrary to a belief system are overlooked/ignored/explained away, there's something absolutely wrong with that doctrine.

When proponents of a doctrine have to use deflection on their opponents, and gaslight the readers against them, using fleshly means to win the argument, it says they have no spiritual ability, or they're spiritually ignorant and don't know how.

Either way, it ought to send up red flags.

When the opponents of this post start with their "stuff", that ought to send up red flags as well.

One shouldn't have to resort to using Satan's ability to prove a doctrine.

THE JUST SHALL L I V E BY FAITH.....not a one-time act as one propagandist has been copy/pasting repetitiously.

Every day we live, we live by faith, and prove that faith with fruits of righteous living. No fruit, no faith. No true repentance, no fruit. No conviction, no true repentance.

 

[dcontroversal]

Those who interject works into their initial belief have trusted into a false gospel Galatians 1 and 3. A gospel that has no power, is double cursed and equated to being foolish and bewitching the ones who trust it......A lost man cannot understand the word.....seems simple enough....just saying....!

Saving faith is not void of works, yet we are saved through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9).

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works. That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith. James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.

In James 2:19, nobody is questioning the fact that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save his soul, but it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. *This is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works, "shown to be righteous."

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete, just like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on the merits of his works when he offered up Isaac on the altar. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous" not accounted as righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body emits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not the works; rather, life in faith is the source of the works. Those who teach salvation by works put the cart before the horse.

In a nutshell, man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is evidenced by works (James 2:14-26). Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-26). *Perfect Harmony*