Not By Works

[Ariel82]

I am saying by the Spirit if we do not want sin,we can abstain from sin,but we are still in the flesh,so still have the possibility to sin.

But the point is it appears that some people sin on purpose,and then act as if they could not avoid it,when they could of avoided it.

I think it is more of a point that some people when they sin appear as if they could not avoid it,when they could of avoided it.

I could be taking what they are saying wrong though,and they do not mean it like that.

That is the only thing that seems strange that they sin,but it seems like they are stating they could not avoid it,when they could avoid it.

But I could be taking what they are saying wrongly,and they do not mean it like that,but what I am saying is that we might sin,but we could of avoided it,not we willingly sin,and then act like it could not be avoided.

We sin because we want to sin,not because we cannot avoid it.

Led by the Spirit we can abstain from sin,if we do not want sin,but we are in the flesh and can take our mind off the Spirit to the flesh,and engage in sin,for we are not forced to be led of the Spirit,but we cannot sin and then act as if we could not avoid it.

We sin because we want to sin,not because we cannot avoid it,but it appears to me that they are coming across as if they cannot avoid sin,but they can,but if they sin it is what they will do,but they should not act as if they could not avoid it,for they could of avoided it,and then if they could of avoided the sin,then how is there an excuse for their sin.

Maybe you could just say this:

James 1 v 13Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. 14But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. 15Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.

That and one other verse seems to be what you are saying in this post. Haven't read your others yet.

1 Corinthians 10 v 13
13 No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.

 

[Ariel82]

I really pray that folks would stop throwing false accusations and just listen and ask for clarification of what others mean instead.

It gets kind of discouraging to read through the threads some days.

I think I am going to take a break from CC for a few days.

Hope everyone has a blessed night/day.

 

[LoveGodForever]

I suggest the context of the word HIM and study the word OBEY...and remember who translated the word and what they believe......just saying......

HIM is JESUS

OBEY can be translated FOLLOW

The HOLY SPIRIT is given unto ALL that FOLLOW HIM (JESUS)

Hi DCON,

Hope this may make it clearer for you and others. I am not sure what you are disagreeing on.Gb9 was asking for a Bible verse from God's Word about who God gives the Holy Spirit to. So I provided him with...

"And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him." (Acts 5:32)

mailman asked for my interpretation.......

Hi mailmandan,

So great to meet you... its late my end. I am about to sleep now but happy to chat with you latter...... I believe the Word of God just as it says. Only God's true believers receive the Holy Spirit. These are those that follow Jesus (the Word of God) and obey him just as the Word of God says. As they believe God's Word, Jesus gives them power to walk in newness of life. I was just trying to answer someones question they needed some help with. Anyhow hope it helps.

God bless you

Grace777 made some comments about "Obedience to the Faith" I looked up the meaning of this in the Greek and provided this comment back...........

Hi Grace777, just wanted to point out some things before going to sleep. The Greek here is talking about obedience to the whole truth of the Word of God not only one aspect of God's Word but if you like, every Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. It means completely relying on Christ (the Word of God) for salvation

Greek
πίστις
pistis
pis'-tis
From G3982; persuasion, that is, credence ; moral conviction of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher, especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly constancy in such profession; by extension the system of religious truth itself: - assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

God bless you

Now to your comment above. I went to the Greek on the meaning of obey as you said it means follow. I believe they are connected because you cannot follow Jesus without obeying him.

Greek meaning of the word OBEY in this verse means,
πειθαρχέω
peitharcheō
pi-tharkh-eh'-o
From a compound of G3982 and G757; to be persuaded by a ruler, that is, to submit to authority; by analogy to conform to advice: - hearken, obey (magistrates) in the present tense.

We follow Jesus (the Word) by believing and obeying Him. Everything is in context. Hope this helps.

God Bless you

 

[LoveGodForever]

Your assessment is not accurate on the believing part about "all" the word of God for salvation.

I trust you will have a good night's rest. Bless you.

Besides the Greek meanings posted above.....

"But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God." (Matt 4:4)

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." (2Tim 3:16)

God bless you

 

[FranC]

Here I will answer....

No it is not obligatory to do good works either for salvation or to keep salvation.

Good works may or may not be an indicator of salvation.

There are many people that could pass the observable good behaviour test and still not be regenerated and redeemed.

OK UnderGrace,
I'm home now. I have a computer and a bible and everything...

So, let's see what Jesus said:

Mathew 5:17
Jesus did not come to abolish the Law but to fulfill it. What does this mean? it means He came to make it MORE COMPLETE.
And what does that mean? He means for us to accept Law into our hearts. Does this make the Law easier to follow?

Mathew 5:17
You lust after a guy? Too bad. You've just committed adultery.

Mathew 5:21
You hate your Brother? Too bad. You've just committed murder.

So, actually, Jesus made the Law MORE difficult.
Does that sound to you like He doesn't want you to do anything?

Not only does God demand that you do something, He even wants you to mean it!
Kind of scary, isn't it?

This is why some turn to easy believism and cheap grace.
Grace is nice.
Cheap Grace is an affront to God. Jesus didn't go to the cross so we could sit around and say how He did it all and now we could drink our beer, or latte', and do nothing.

Mathew 15:11
What goes into our mouths is not too important. What comes out of it is very important.
Does it seem to you that cheap grace spoken out of the mouth of a man is pleasant to hear? Wouldn't it be nicer to hear the truth?

What is the truth?

Find out. Read the N.T. again and read it with an open mind instead of reading it with the nonsense implanted that we are not REQUIRED to do anything. One poster here cannot even answer a simple question but has to dance and beat around the bush.
Jesus was CLEAR.

Mathew 16:24
If we want to be disciles and follow after Jesus, we are to pick up our cross and follow Him. What does it mean to you that we are to pick up our cross?

Mathew 19:28
Those who have followed Him will sit with Him on the 12 thrones.
What does it mean to FOLLOW Him?

Mathew 25:34-46
Take special note of verse 46. It says that those WHO DID NOT DO will go into eternal punishment.

Matthew 25:34-46 New International Version (NIV)

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

As you can see, it's very important to listen to the words that Jesus spoke.

Here are some more:

Mathew 7:24
Anyone who hears the words of Christ and ACTS upon them is like a wise man who built his house on the rock.


John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has eternal life,
BUT he who does not OBEY the Son shall not see life but the wrath of God abides on him.


John 5:28-29
The dead in the tombs will hear His voice...
Those who did GOOD DEEDS to a resurrection of life
Those who did evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.


John 14:15
If we love Jesus, we will KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS.


John 14:21
He who has the commandments of Jesus and KEEPS THEM, loves Jesus.



Please read the above scriptures for yourself.
Don't be caught practicing cheap grace.
Jesus gave too much for you to believe the lie.

 

[PeterJens]

i believe in sinless perfection.

I believe in Jesus

This is where I started my quest. We are to walk like Jesus as our example.
Paul, John, Peter all agree with this goal.

So however one works out ones theology, you have to contradict these apostles
which is just making a different outlook.

Interpretation. If Paul says we are delivered from temptation, this implies people
live un-defiled lives. If defilement was not an issue then Jesus would not ask to be
delivered from temptation or that God delivers from temptation and does not push us
beyond that which we cannot handle, ie no excuses.

No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.
1 cor 10:13

This language is in such contrast to we sin every day and cannot help failing.
That is not even close to being tempted and resisting.

So the reference points are different and the issues also.

 

[FranC]

The fact that you use the coined phrase cheap graces is hilarious....the reason...your dogma reeks of cheap grace....as in it is not sufficient to save you or keep you saved...you must help your Jesus keep his word and finish what he said he would finish....what a joke.....BTW.......

There is only ONE Jesus Dcon.
And His grace is not cheap, as you make it out to be.

It's precious and special.
And you make it cheap by not wanting to contribute in your sanctification process.
You DO seem to forget about sanctificaton. You DO like the justification part, don't you?

But after that comes the second part.
It's necessary to do both if we want to end up with God.

When he asks why some did nothing, do you suppose He'll like the asnwer when they say:

But Jesus did it all !!

I don't think He'll like that answer at all.

If you want to do good works, you could start by not calling persons names.
That would make God very happy.

 

[FranC]

Take it up with Paul..he was inspired and your are not....your dogma....faith plus works to obtain or maintain salvation....a lie, false, no power and all who hold to it...called fools and bewitched.....in reality you mock the cross and join your pal who states that Jesus is not enough....no..it is you who mocks the cross and devalues/waters down the blood of Christ by your own cheap labor.....

It's not MY dogma cutie.
It's what the bible teaches.

God does wish you would stop using words like
fools
bewitched
Jesus is not enough
Cheap labor
Cake takers

and all those other unchristianly words you use.

 

[LoveGodForever]

You know the bible is clear....the plenteous in number (many) that come before Jesus and then get cast from his presence are identified by 4 characteristics......

a. They claim to know him (be a Christian)
b. They push their works in his name as their right to enter
c. They push their ability to cast out demons in his name
d. They push their ability to foretell in his name

Most so called Christian religions believe and push the above.....especially the workers for.........they claim to know JESUS...and they push a working for dogma.........

The bible is clear and exactly why Jesus uses a word to describe MANY (PLENTEOUS IN NUMBER) that end up in hell/lake of fire because they believed a false gospel....the same gospel PAUL describes in GALATIANS...a café blend of faith and works.......

I will vehemently stand against this false working for dogma until...

a. JESUS comes or
b. JESUS brings me home

Sorry I am a little puzzled by this message and maybe I am coming in on this a bit late but who you are referring to? You should know me a little better by now to know I do not believe we are saved by Works? Be warned however, faith if it does not produce works is not the faith that God wants us to have and salvation is from sin not in sin. I know what I have written here will be twisted around to mean something it does not mean by some. But God's Sheep hear His Voice.

"But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?" (James 2:20).

God bless you all

 

[FranC]

Proud to be an "easy believer" and a "cheap gracer" because the Gospel message is to good to be true, that people cannot believe it.

Yup.... just like Jesus said few are able to find it because they always have to put themselves in mix of the Good News and it is not about them it is about what Jesus accomplished completely and fully!

Could you please provide some scripture for the above.
Personal opinion doesn't interest me too much.
thanks.

 

[FranC]

If you only have this much faith in God. Then you are still a heathen and need to learn the true gospel of grace.



The Wesley Center Online: Sermon 1 - Salvation By Faith

HOW MUCH faith, according to you, does one need NOT to be a heathen?

Luke 17:6
He replied, "If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, 'Be uprooted and planted in the sea,' and it will obey you.

 

[FranC]

Take it up with Paul..he was inspired and your are not....your dogma....faith plus works to obtain or maintain salvation....a lie, false, no power and all who hold to it...called fools and bewitched.....in reality you mock the cross and join your pal who states that Jesus is not enough....no..it is you who mocks the cross and devalues/waters down the blood of Christ by your own cheap labor.....

Oh I forgot.

I suppose YOU are inspired.

YOU get to know who is and who isn't inspired.
YOU and Paul are inspired.

Pride, pride, pride.
Ego, ego, ego.

The two main reasons for sin.

 

[FranC]

The Gospel is for everyone and is not about our level of intelligence.

It is simple though, which why it is a stumbling block and a rock of offense, sadly people believe they can be good enough either to attain salvation or keep it.

Undergrace,


YOU said JESUS spoke of the beatitudes so we could realize that we could not keep them.

Are you serious when you say things like this?

Have you studied the book of Mathew?
You think Jesus said things HE DIDN'T MEAN?

What else do you believe so that your own needs may be soothed.

JESUS MEANT EVERYTHING HE SAID.

He didn't leave heaven and come down here to be crucified so He could talk about things YOU COULDN'T DO.

And, when you say things that are very strange, you're going to have to back them up with scripture.
YOU are not the Word of God.

 

[dcontroversal]

There is only ONE Jesus Dcon.
And His grace is not cheap, as you make it out to be.

It's precious and special.
And you make it cheap by not wanting to contribute in your sanctification process.
You DO seem to forget about sanctificaton. You DO like the justification part, don't you?

But after that comes the second part.
It's necessary to do both if we want to end up with God.

When he asks why some did nothing, do you suppose He'll like the asnwer when they say:

But Jesus did it all !!

I don't think He'll like that answer at all.

If you want to do good works, you could start by not calling persons names.
That would make God very happy.

we have already covered sanctification and you reject that it is dual in usage..one applied to position and the other applied unto our daily physical life...so no sense in wasting my time covering it yet again to only have you reject it and push works for salvation

 

[dcontroversal]

Oh I forgot.

I suppose YOU are inspired.

YOU get to know who is and who isn't inspired.
YOU and Paul are inspired.

Pride, pride, pride.
Ego, ego, ego.

The two main reasons for sin.

You seem to accuse me of things I never say nor imply....Satan accuses so is he your daddy?

 

[FranC]

The works were the result of the FAITH he already had...not the source of the faith and that is exactly what you see to be oblivious to........NO ONE is saved BY works......they are saved by FAITH.....maybe one day you will lose the baggage of your false religion and see before you make the plenteous in number group that blends faith and works as the means of instead of works being the result of faith

Hey Dcon
We're from the same religion.
Does this bother you?
If so, YOU could switch.

WHY did Abraham have to do anything at all, which is what YOU preach,
If anyway Jesus was GOING TO DO IT ALL AND FINISH THE WORK.

What work do you think Jesus finsihed anyway?
YOUR work or
HIS work?

Find out.

 

[dcontroversal]

HOW MUCH faith, according to you, does one need NOT to be a heathen?

Luke 17:6
He replied, "If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, 'Be uprooted and planted in the sea,' and it will obey you.

Have you moved any trees or mountains yet?

 

[dcontroversal]

Hey Dcon
We're from the same religtion.
Does this bother you?
If so, YOU could switch.

WHY did Abraham have to do anything at all, which is what YOU preach,
If anyway Jesus was GOING TO DO IT ALL AND FINISH THE WORK.

What work do you think Jesus finsihed anyway?
YOUR work or
HIS work?

Find out.

Maybe you should figure it out....then you can trust him in faith for total salvation........instead of attempting to work your way there......and sorry....I never was a Catholic.....so..no..we are not of the same religion

 

[FranC]

Wow FranC, didn't realise your reading comprehension was so impaired.

I didn't ask you to play God. Just to recognize that God looks at people's heart and that there is a difference between Jacob and Esau, but I realize it may be too hard for you to understand.

So I will answer your "simple question"

Yes God requires we obey Him and do good works.

However those works do not give us eternal life or the ability to call Him Abba father.

If we do it out of fear, we are slaves.

If we do it to earn a reward, we are bond servants.

If we do it because love and the Holy spirit lead us and allows us to call God Abba, father...then we are heirs of eternal life with Jesus.

Thank you. I do appreciate it.

NOW we could maybe talk about WHY we do the good works.

It's nice to establish that GOD REQUIRES US TO DO GOOD WORKS.

The WHY is also very important.
But we cannot allow those reading along who may be new Christians to believe they must DO NOTHING and still be saved.
The New Testament does not teach this.

BTW, we play God when we want to declare who is saved and who is not; who has enough faith and who doesn't.

We are allowed to judge the works of Others (their actions) but we are not allowed to judge the state of their soul.
Only God knows that.

Wow. I must really be horrible with English - I've been accused twice today of not understanding it.
Those professors of mine must have been some real idiots to give me such high grades.

 

[dcontroversal]

Sorry I am a little puzzled by this message and maybe I am coming in on this a bit late but who you are referring to? You should know me a little better by now to know I do not believe we are saved by Works? Be warned however, faith if it does not produce works is not the faith that God wants us to have and salvation is from sin not in sin. I know what I have written here will be twisted around to mean something it does not mean by some. But God's Sheep hear His Voice.

"But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?" (James 2:20).

God bless you all

Not directed at you bro......and we seem to hold to the same truths.......I have consistently said that the fruit and works we bear are the result of the salvation we already possess by faith.......this was a generalized statement of truth for ALL who will add faith and works in a café blend pseudo salvation that is not the gospel of a same kind that Paul preached...Galatians 1 and 3