Not By Works

[Grace777x70]

Maybe this might help as sometimes things can get mis-represented in this mode of communicating on the web.

True "obeying God" in the New Covenant is obeying the gospel message to believe in Christ - just as Peter and Paul preached in Acts 10 & 13.

This is called being "obedient to the faith" - even good moral living / law-abiding priests in the Jewish religion needed to become "obedient to the faith". Act 6:7

Obedience in walking with the Lord after being "obedient to the faith to believe in Christ's work on the cross and resurrection" which brings the forgiveness of sins can be characterized as:

Obedience is the natural outflow out of the new creation in Christ when he/she discovers that they are completely included and represented in the obedience of Christ. ( Rom. 5:19 & 2 Cor. 10:5. )

It is the obedience of Christ that powerfully arrests every thought and demolishes every stronghold in our un-renewed minds as to what really happened to us when e believed the gospel message. That we too have died with Christ and have risen to newness of life with Him..

As we "awake" to who we are in Christ - we will walk out who we really are now in our new creation in Christ. This will show in godly living that expresses the grace and love of our Father and Lord for those around us that need to see Them for who they truly are.

 

[FranC]

1 Corinthians 6:11 reminds us that despite our habitual sinful past, Christians have been washed, sanctified and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
(This has sanctification as an entire, completed event on view.)

And note that in both 1:30 and 6:11, sanctification and justification are mentioned entirely in parallel, apparently as the status conferred on Christians through the work of Christ on the cross.

In Hebrews 10:10, it is said that “we have been sanctified” through the “once for all” (i.e. unique, unrepeatable) sacrifice of Jesus’ body.

Then Hebrews 10:14 goes on to say that by this one sacrifice Jesus “has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified”.

The other references to progressive sanctification in scripture are based upon the understanding that sanctification is first and foremost positional

This post brings up an interesting point. One which is important to understand.
We cannot only read the bible to learn about God, but we also need to study theology.

It takes theologians to understand many biblical concepts which they then pass on to us.

You listed
1 Corinthians 6:11
Hebrews 10:10
Hebrews 10:14

This sounds like the saved person is already sanctified. It sounds good. Just like eternal security sounds good. Too bad it's not true. Nothing is positional with God. He looks at our heart and will judge us by what we have believed and done.

Now I list:

John 17:17
1 Peter 1:2
1 Thessalonians 4:3
1 Thessalonians 5:23
2 Thessalonians 2:13

These all state that sanctification is an ON-GOING process.

In fact, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 states that our salvation DEPENDS on sanctification.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 New International Version (NIV)

Stand Firm
13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits[a] to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.

So which is it? Was Paul incorrect either in one statement or the other?
How to resolve?

This is resolved by doing what hereitcal concepts do not like to do... Consider the entire N.T. as one complete idea.

The complete idea is that we will know at the end of our lives, when we die, whether or not we held on to belief and if we did what we were supposed to.

Here are words JESUS said, not Paul:

John 5:28-29

28“Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice
29and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.


Look at Mathew 5:44-45
This is a very interesting verse that could make you understand, if you wanted to...


Matthew 5:44-45 New International Version (NIV)

44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

Jesus is speaking in the beatitudes and explaining to those persons listening to Him that they must love their enemies IF they want to be sons of the Father.

He doesn't say that all they have to do is believe in Him, HE GIVES THEM INSTRUCTIONS.

We are do DO things in order to be saved.
At the end of the age we will be divided

AT THE END...

Mathew 13:39
JESUS SPEAKING:


Matthew 13:39 New International Version (NIV)

39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.




Please notice that the harvest is at the END OF THE AGE.
NOT NOW in this present time. At the end we will know who held fast the faith.

Hebrews 10:23-24

23Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful.
24And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds,


The bible is a complete book, you CANNOT pick and choose the verses you like to create a doctrine.
There is no way that a "positional" idea could have come about, if SOMEONE did not sit there and LOOK for it because it's what THEY wanted it to say.

I don't mean YOU. I mean whoever MADE UP this concept --- it certainly was NOT one of the early theologians who lived right after Jesus and even knew the Apostles in person.

Maybe we should be giving more credence to them, than to the new heretics that have come our way?

 

[FranC]

Men cannot really see our faith, they can really only see our works.

Men can see our faith.

If I tell my neighbor I'm a believer and she sees me go to Church every Sunday and treat her in a nice way, and who knows what else...

Is this not a testimony of my faith?

WHERE do you get such incorrect ideas from?

 

[dcontroversal]

Men can see our faith.

If I tell my neighbor I'm a believer and she sees me go to Church every Sunday and treat her in a nice way, and who knows what else...

Is this not a testimony of my faith?

WHERE do you get such incorrect ideas from?

JAMES....................
Hebrews.................

 

[FranC]

Hebrews 10:10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.


PAST TENSE and ONCE FOR ALL<----OUR STANDING in CHRIST

Our daily lives is an ongoing process of growth, maturity and transformation......Romans 12:1-2

Biblical, eternal salvation by faith and grace puts us IN CHRIST and then through growth and maturity we bear fruit dia Christ through us as a living sacrifice.......

Read the post above to UnderGrace.
No. 12742.

I took some time off to write it.
Do you think you'll actually read it and think about what I'm saying?
We'll see.

 

[dcontroversal]

Read the post above to UnderGrace.
No. 12742.

I took some time off to write it.
Do you think you'll actually read it and think about what I'm saying?
We'll see.

Sure and got to this point, your first statement of fact which is false.....so...how can I take anything you say of value Fran?

Your statement and the bolded is wrong....

This sounds like the saved person is already sanctified. It sounds good. Just like eternal security sounds good. Too bad it's not true. Nothing is positional with God. He looks at our heart and will judge us by what we have believed and done.

 

[FranC]

The believer is justified, righteous, holy in Christ 1 Cor.1:30


"But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption."

Our flesh has been crucified with Christ and is passing away with the rest of Creation, not evolving into something better.

“I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

We cannot fix our flesh by trying to be good.

What does that mean?
Can you fix your flesh by trying to be bad?

 

[FranC]

Sorry I cannot help but jump in here.

If you do not know that salvation is an absolute free gift then you are believing a different gospel.

I rejoice when anyone receives the free gift.

The works that some does for God as an outpouring of the free gift is between the person and God and not up to me to judge how much or how little it is.

The prodigal son is about rejoicing when a person returns to the Father it is not about salvation.

The Prodigal Son is about a Son who gets his inheritance ahead of time,
Leaves his home and abandons His father,
Goes out into the world and is sorry he did,
Goes back home where his Father is Always waiting for him.

Luke 15:24
THIS SON OF MINE WAS DEAD
AND HAS COME TO LIFE AGAIN


Please notice the AGAIN.
He was saved
He was lost
He was saved again


FURTHER PROOF THAT SALVATON CAN BE LOST.

 

[FranC]

Sure God is fair....all have a base inheritance...the down payment<--the indwelling Holy Spirit and God rewards for faithful service.....some have works of gold, silver and precious stones, some wood, hay and stubble and the prodigal son was a son throughout the whole process and received as a son with a robe and a ring...indicative of authority and covered......

Faithful...rewarded more abundantly and can earn crowns and a greater inheritance

Not as faithful...loses rewards fails to earn crowns and comes into the kingdom with less.....

JESUS said....THOSE who teach and DO called GREAT in the KINGDOM.....THOSE who teach and DON'T DO called LEAST in the kingdom of heaven

Well. We finally agree on something.
But rewards are not the problem.
Getting to heaven is the problem, and to those reading along YOU make it sound like they're nice and safe when this is NOT what Jesus said.

Jesus said to follow Him. We MUST follow Him if He is to prepare a place for us.

I wish you would just confirm this and then you could believe in eternal security all you want to...which, BTW, is also a false doctrine.

 

[FranC]

A simple question...yes or no?

Originally Posted by dcontroversal

Have you moved any trees or mountains yet?

Unlike some, I answer all questions immediately.

NO. I have not moved any literal mountains. Other types, yes.

Have you?

 

[FranC]

???????????

We're both protestant.
Much to your chagrin.

 

[FranC]

I did not say he was...I asked based upon your response......--->? a question mark not and ! exclamation mark....and I never claimed to be inspired......so...................???

Oh. You mean you tell some people that satan is actually their father?
And you were nice enough to JUST ASK me?


Here's what you said:

You seem to accuse me of things I never say nor imply....Satan accuses so is he your daddy?


and you even called him "daddy". Have you no fear of him at all?
And have you no respect for fellow Christians, or even humans I dare say.

We don't have to agree on everything, but we're both serving the same Lord.

 

[FranC]

Some may define a work is any exterior action or deed that complies with trying to fulfill the law, others may say it is obedience to God.

Scripture says,
“This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom he has sent”

Remember scripture very clearly states....

Ephesians 2:8-9 “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

Listen to me Undergrace,,,

A big problem here is with the word BELIEVE.

What does BELIEVE mean?

You see, you're right in what you say above, but you're wrong.

A good deed is fulfilling the Law. Is this a bad thing?
Is it fulfilling the Mosaic Law or the Law Jesus left us with?

WHAT DOES BELIEVE MEAN ANYWAY????

Please find out and let us all know.
Thanks.

 

[dcontroversal]

The Prodigal Son is about a Son who gets his inheritance ahead of time,
Leaves his home and abandons His father,
Goes out into the world and is sorry he did,
Goes back home where his Father is Always waiting for him.

Luke 15:24
THIS SON OF MINE WAS DEAD
AND HAS COME TO LIFE AGAIN


Please notice the AGAIN.
He was saved
He was lost
He was saved again


FURTHER PROOF THAT SALVATON CAN BE LOST.

FALSE........

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

 

[dcontroversal]

Oh. You mean you tell some people that satan is actually their father?LIE
And you were nice enough to JUST ASK me?


Here's what you said:

You seem to accuse me of things I never say nor imply....Satan accuses so is he your daddy?


and you even called him "daddy". Have you no fear of him at all?
And have you no respect for fellow Christians, or even humans I dare say.

We don't have to agree on everything, but we're both serving the same Lord.

Never said he was.....you seem to have no problem lying or misrepresenting the facts........and obviously don't know the difference between a question or a statement of fact

 

[UnderGrace]

Really, the pharisees were believing exactly the same thing and Jesus called them white washed tombs!

Men can see our faith.

If I tell my neighbor I'm a believer and she sees me go to Church every Sunday and treat her in a nice way, and who knows what else...

Is this not a testimony of my faith?

WHERE do you get such incorrect ideas from?

 

[FranC]

In order to rightly divide the word of God we need to look at scripture in context of the Old and New Covenants and the fact that all scripture is written "for" us to but not "to" us.

Don't take someone else's medicine and come into the New Covenant and believe in the gospel.

I know you will ignore these truths but I will post them anyway in the event that it will help others reading this thread.

All context starts and ends with the revelation of the risen Christ Himself. All scripture must be filtered through the finished work of Christ in order to get the context needed when reading all scripture and this means the Lord's words too.

Jesus told the rich young ruler to keep the commandments to have eternal life but is that how we are saved today? No, Jesus used the Law to expose the ruler's need for a Savior because he loved money and had actually broken the 1st commandment.

Here is a scripture that says that if anyone who has ever sinned against God will be blotted out of the book. This means that all of us have been blotted out of God's book for who has not ever sinned? No one.

Exodus 32:33 (NASB)
[SUP]33 [/SUP] The LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.


This is a true statement but it is not the ultimate statement of truth because what Christ did on the cross and resurrection trumps this truth.

Everything in the bible is truly stated but not everything is a statement of ultimate truth.

We are as reliant on the Holy Spirit to reveal Christ in the scriptures to us as Mary was reliant on the Holy Spirit to conceive Jesus in her womb.

You're starting to really frighten me with this "ultimate truth" idea of yours.
Did you come up with this for all the parts of the OT and NT that you personally do not agree with?
I guess we all need something to soothe our feathers.

And what do you mean by:
"scripture is written for us but not to us"

WHO exactly was scripture writtten to?

Do you not believe that even what Jesus told the Apostles is ALSO for us? (except in very few cases where he specifically meant His words for them, but it's APPARENT from the verse).

Everything Jesus said is FOR us and TO us.
Even the O.T.
Israel was "SON" to God, so everything He tells Israel, is also meant for us.

If not, we could just throw away the O.T. and do without it since we are not Jews.

THE RICH YOUNG RULER

Jesus told him to go sell everything because He knew he wouldn't.

We ALL have things we are tied to in this life. Jesus meant to show the Young man that there was something he loved more than God. We are to put God first. Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and HIS righteousness...
Mathew 6:33

Jesus also knew that everyone needs a savior. He came to save the world, all those who would accept His sacrifice.

 

[UnderGrace]

Let me just say that every argument you pose in its final conclusion, or ultimately, nullifies the work on the cross.

If there was any work we could do towards our salvation then the death and resurrection of Jesus was not needed.

It is a grave thing to diminish, in any capacity, what Jesus has accomplished on our behalf.

Listen to me Undergrace,,,

A big problem here is with the word BELIEVE.

What does BELIEVE mean?

You see, you're right in what you say above, but you're wrong.

A good deed is fulfilling the Law. Is this a bad thing?
Is it fulfilling the Mosaic Law or the Law Jesus left us with?

WHAT DOES BELIEVE MEAN ANYWAY????

Please find out and let us all know.
Thanks.

 

[dcontroversal]

Let me just say that every argument you pose in its final conclusion, or ultimately, nullifies the work on the cross.

If there was any work we could do towards our salvation then the death and resurrection of Jesus was not needed.

It is a grave thing to diminish, in any capacity, what Jesus has accomplished on our behalf.

I agree and to interject self and works is to devalue, diminish and reject the finished work of Christ on our behalf.......Paul was clear....ALL who add works to faith to finish off salvation are deemed foolish and bewitched.....His sacrifice is sufficient and belief into said sacrifice is what God desires to obtain salvation......

 

[JIMBO43]

Let me just say that every argument you pose in its final conclusion, or ultimately, nullifies the work on the cross.

If there was any work we could do towards our salvation then the death and resurrection of Jesus was not needed.

It is a grave thing to diminish, in any capacity, what Jesus has accomplished on our behalf.

The works we must do as believers is to believe and thatS that............... Jesus does not force your hand in this work... you choose to follow Jesus doesnt put you on a leash..

Which this statement of yours does.