Not By Works

[FranC]

He cant Fran, because it was invented by deceived men during the reformation, and not found anywhere in the text. After 500 years positional-ism has now been magnified to its greatest level of heresy today by apostates like Billy Graham, Erwin Lucer and a plethora of others...However, all the bible implies, presupposes, and declares, is manifest reality, (in other words faith proven by deeds). One is justified and sanctified by God after coming clean with Him in repentance, whereas all the guile and rebellion have been removed from the heart, and is now a vessel made fit for the Masters use. He/she may not know much, but the wilful vile sins of the flesh have ceased in the baptism of repentance..And the cup maybe small in the beginning, l but it is overflowing with the fountains of living water. Then as we grow in the word we add to our faith the virtues of the Spirit through grace with such things as temperance, knowledge, patience, godliness, and to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness love. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 Peter 1:5-8.....Therefore, advancing onward to Christian maturity, "teleos" (perfection). But if one is abiding faithfully in Christ, his cup is always overflowing, no matter the size of the vessel, and the cup becomes larger as the virtues of the Spirit increase for the purpose of containing these godly ways that are dispensed upon him/her through the Spirit of grace..

.The false prophets somehow have it backwards, and perceive that it was God that plucked out his own eye and cant see you as you are. as if He is a clown playing peek-aboo with sinners pretending He cant see them in their sin, and somehow passes over them and declares them righteous while they are sill unrighteous. That might be the stupidest philosophy Ive ever heard of. Only the flesh could invent such folly... whereas we are the ones who are told to pluck out the minds eyes of lust, meaning to take great measures if necessary to depart from iniquity a all cost to the saving of our soul..We do this by repenting coming clean with God and having a single eye focused on Christ, thus following after His ways, not the ways of vain men looking to make your flesh feel good with flatteries...

Hi Willybob,

Yes, I agree with all you've said.
This is what I've come to call cheap grace. A pastor I know calls it easy believism.
Everything is made easy today. All one has to do is believe --- of course Jesus never said this, nor did the Early Church Fathers or Theologians believe this.

It CAN be true if one understands the word believe, as used in the N.T. it means exactly what you've stated above.
it means to trust and follow and learn from and do as that person does. It is NOT a simple believing of the mind or stating that, yes, I believe in Christ --- No, the believing must seep through into the heart and inner being of a person to the point that they want to BE LIKE CHRIST.

When this happens, that person will no longer argue about whether or not works are necessary. An argument that SHOULD NOT be necessary within the Church, the Body of Christ. it's almost blasphemous to be arguing about this.

I have often posted the Didache, but to no avail.

We have minds here that have been so brainwashed by cheap grace that they no longer even read or understand what is being said.

It's a sad state of affairs when we have to BEG the cheap gracers to ADMIT that GOD REQUIRES us to follow His Laws.
Jesus Himself said He did not come to abolish the Law; in fact, He made it more difficult to follow -- He brought it to heart level.

So if our HEART does not change, to the point where we can say that God must be obeyed, then what has changed?
NOTHING.
And Jesus demands internal change.

The state of our soul is not something we should fool around with....

 

[JIMBO43]

I agree and to interject self and works is to devalue, diminish and reject the finished work of Christ on our behalf.......Paul was clear....ALL who add works to faith to finish off salvation are deemed foolish and bewitched.....His sacrifice is sufficient and belief into said sacrifice is what God desires to obtain salvation......

OH WELL AT LEAST THATS BETTER THEN CONDEMMING WORKERS TO HELL... i guess i should take heart from this

 

[FranC]

Actually I have and is proven by the multitudes of verses that speak to our justification, salvation, positioning of grace etc. that are found in Christ...it is you dude that lives in fantasy land while denying scripture, taking verses out of context and blind to the truth.....the day you find out that you were wrong and then realize your destiny is sealed is when you find yourself before the throne boasting of your works, sinless fairytale and then getting denied and cast.....tragic day for you pal....I suggest you trust ..yea actually trust JESUS before it is too late...

Like, What makes you think Willybob DOESN'T trust Jesus?
What has he said that is wrong?

Do you think he should trust YOU?

You have verses confused Dcon. You make them say what YOU want them to say.
You don't read them simply and accept the significance.

Take each verse at face value and see what happens....

 

[FranC]

This is what believers in the grace of our Lord Jesus have to say about "sanctification"..the word itself means = "to be set apart"

We are perfectly sanctified in Christ now....very true....we as an identity the new creation in Christ will never be more holy then we are now.

However there is a "sanctifying" of our behavior that is on-going that reflects our true nature in Christ...so in essence...we are becoming outwardly who we really are in our inner man which is in Christ.

This involves the renewing of the mind to walk out what already is in the new creation that is one spirit with Christ now. The Holy Spirit transforms us as we behold the glory/goodness of the Lord as in a mirror. We participate in this with Him. 2 Cor. 3:17-18

God sets apart ( sanctifies ) our attitudes and actions outwardly but you are 100% set apart ( sanctified ) as a person..the real you in your inner man..the new creation in Christ.

Hebrews 10:14 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

( who are sanctified this is present passive..passive is that something is being done to you ...the Spirit of the Lord in us changing us. )

Here is what Jesus told Paul on the road to Damascus....having been sanctified ( perfect passive ).

Perfect tense =The perfect tense in Greek is used to describe a completed past action which produced results which are still in effect all the way up to the present. This is continuously happening in the present.

Passive means something is being done to you - you are not doing it.
Acts 26:17 (NASB)

[SUP]18 [/SUP] to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.' (perfect passive )

It is obvious from scripture that we are to walk out the holiness that is in us.

There is a difference between us as a person being "set apart" ( sanctified in our spirit ) and "setting apart " ( sanctifying ) our behavior.

1 Peter 1:15-16 (NASB)
[SUP]15[/SUP] but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior;

[SUP]16 [/SUP] because it is written, "YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY."

We are holy because He is holy! Christ makes us holy.

You love tenses Grace.
When they suit you.

Please read my reply to UnderGrace where I show a FUTURE tense for SANCTIFICATION and how we get it at the END OF THE AGE, not NOW.

 

[gb9]

Listen to me Undergrace,,,

A big problem here is with the word BELIEVE.

What does BELIEVE mean?

You see, you're right in what you say above, but you're wrong.

A good deed is fulfilling the Law. Is this a bad thing?
Is it fulfilling the Mosaic Law or the Law Jesus left us with?

WHAT DOES BELIEVE MEAN ANYWAY????

Please find out and let us all know.
Thanks.

since you do not bother to look things up, you know, try to find actual facts, I will give the definition of pisteuo, the greek word for believe in the N.T.

to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in.

satisfied??

 

[FranC]

Amen........thanks be to God.......and his finished work in Jesus ............all praise goes to JESUS....those who push works and sinless perfectionism deny Christ, devalue his work and sacrifice.......and trample the blood of Jesus under their feet........

Could you please enlighten us...?

WHAT IS THE FINISHED WORK OF CHRIST?

Thanks.

 

[dcontroversal]

OH WELL AT LEAST THATS BETTER THEN CONDEMMING WORKERS TO HELL... i guess i should take heart from this

False dogmas condemn to hell....a failure to come the one and only true way condemns to hell.....not trusting JESUS biblically condemns to hell......so....what is your point bro.....?

 

[FranC]

Hi Grace777,

I really do not understand what your talking about above and cannot understand what you have written above and how you think it supports what you are accusing me of taking God's Word out of context. Please forgive me, maybe I am slow. Sometimes this is a problem of mine.

What is it exactly you are accusing me of taking out of context and how does what you have written above support your case in reference to message 12663 and Acts 5:32?

You have seen the original Greek meaning of the words "obey" and "obedience to the faith" in the earlier scriptures you quoted. This was backed up with other scriptures (Matt 4:4; 2Tim 3:16) from the Word of God which support the Greek meaning of the Word "obey" and "obedience to the faith". Now your saying that God's Word does not mean what it says? All I can say to the above is that I believe God's Word and we ought to obey God rather than man. Which is in context to Acts 5:32
"Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men." (Act 5:29)

God's sheep hear His Voice (not another's interpretation of it)

God bless you

You're not slow LoveGodForever.

You understand very well.

The Greek only helps when it helps to twist scripture to make it say what someone wants it to say and not what it actually says.
Too much talk of tenses and the such instead of simply understanding God's Word.

It would seem that only Greek scholars could understand the bible.

I love your last sentence...
Amen.

 

[dcontroversal]

Could you please enlighten us...?

WHAT IS THE FINISHED WORK OF CHRIST?

Thanks.

No offence, but it does no good to engage you....you consistently reject all truth not hammered on your anvil and to be honest....you and I having dialogue is a waste of time as we have covered the legal implications of the words of Christ numerous times to only be swept under the table in favor of religion over truth.......

 

[FranC]

Many cannot accept that we're to have empty hands of faith. To them it seems too simple, which is why they believe they must do something also. They try to get to God on their own terms (broad way), not on His terms.

1 Cor 1:18: "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God"

It's like a person hanging from monkey bars with hell below them... Jesus tells them to let go of the bars and He will catch them, so they won't fall into hell. But the person instead chooses to cling to those monkey bars, so in doing this they reject Jesus as being sufficient to save them. When they cling to their works to save them, they reject Him.

Why is it, Katy-Follower that "your side" is Always talking about hell???

Just like Others here, YOU must be God and know who is saved and who isn't.

Did you ever read Mathew chapter 7?

HOW YOU judge YOU will be judged.
Think about that when you're praying today.

And stop playing God.
Serve Him instead with no fear of saying that you are.

 

[dcontroversal]

Like, What makes you think Willybob DOESN'T trust Jesus?
What has he said that is wrong?

Do you think he should trust YOU?

You have verses confused Dcon. You make them say what YOU want them to say.
You don't read them simply and accept the significance.

Take each verse at face value and see what happens....

Keep believing what you will Fran.....you and sponge want to trust your works and sinless perfectionism....have a ball.....Jesus could post the truth and you would deny it in favor of religion.......consistently proven by the truth posted by many......

 

[UnderGrace]

The entire Gospel of John is built on believing in the finished work of the cross and being born again in Christ!

[SUP]15[/SUP]that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
[SUP]16[/SUP]“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [SUB]ESV
[/SUB]
Believing is an action that one does, not an object or thing that one possesses; thus, the use of the word believing.
John uses the verb form to emphasize the act that is necessary for someone to be saved requires total dependence on the work of another.

That work is that Jesus, in His perfection, He having fulfilled the law, took on all our sins to atone, pay the debt and restore fellowship with the Father and was resurrected to new life.

By believing in that completed work, He becomes the propitiation for our sins when we accept/believe what he has done for us by faith on a personal level, we are justified and sanctified forever!

John did indicate that believing can be superficial when it is merely intellectual without resulting in true salvation (John 2:23- 24; 6:66; 12:42-43; see Jas 2:19).

Listen to me Undergrace,,,

A big problem here is with the word BELIEVE.

What does BELIEVE mean?

You see, you're right in what you say above, but you're wrong.

A good deed is fulfilling the Law. Is this a bad thing?
Is it fulfilling the Mosaic Law or the Law Jesus left us with?

WHAT DOES BELIEVE MEAN ANYWAY????

Please find out and let us all know.
Thanks.

 

[dcontroversal]

You love tenses Grace.
When they suit you.

Please read my reply to UnderGrace where I show a FUTURE tense for SANCTIFICATION and how we get it at the END OF THE AGE, not NOW.

You of all people (based upon your boast of understanding English rather well) should know that much is lost in translation....The N.T. was inspired in GREEK with all of it's nuance and flavor........we would be fools to not pay attention to the verb tense that was inspired and possibly lost in translation......

 

[gb9]

there you go fran. 2 definitions of belief. comments??

 

[JIMBO43]

False dogmas condemn to hell....a failure to come the one and only true way condemns to hell.....not trusting JESUS biblically condemns to hell......so....what is your point bro.....?

My point is if believing repentance will keep me saved is a sin then is that a sin that i will be sent to hell for.. or will i just lose browny points becoz i also believe that faith keeps you saved...


Now am i sinning by saying This..

Its Jesus who keeps us saved after God has handed us over.... providing we obey his teachings Jesus says if you follow me and obey my commands i will know you are truly one of mine..


Jesus doesnt say here i will make you obey my commands or i will do the obeying for you...on your behalf..


He ask us to do that work for ourselfs..


Now looking at this from my point of view am i worthy of promoting a false doctrin on purpose and that i will go to hell for believing this..

or i am of the devil ?

 

[FranC]

1 Cor 1:26-31: "For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, that no flesh should glory in His presence. But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption— that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the Lord.”

What interesting concepts.
I may never leave here...

So who's blowing their horn?

YOU are blowing a really empty horn. Telling new Christians that might be reading along that they are to do NOTHING BUT BELIEVE when the N.T. says otherwise.

Luckily, persons could read for themselves and do not have to listen to our posts here on this thread.


James 1:22-23 New International Version (NIV)

22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.
23 Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror

Are you only listening to the word, or are you DOING what you hear?
Are you DECEIVING yourself?

 

[UnderGrace]

Alas, you are right, there is more than enough information in this thread that lays out very clearly true salvation in Jesus!

That people push against the true simple Gospel clearly spelled out in scripture is baffling to me.

They make the work of Jesus necessary but not sufficient,

The twist is that if it is not sufficient then ultimately it was not necessary. There is no middle ground.

The works based group never want to see this.

No offence, but it does no good to engage you....you consistently reject all truth not hammered on your anvil and to be honest....you and I having dialogue is a waste of time as we have covered the legal implications of the words of Christ numerous times to only be swept under the table in favor of religion over truth.......

 

[UnderGrace]

Your words show that you find the true Gospel offensive, Jesus said it would be.

The Word (Jesus) is telling you to believe in His sacrifice and be born again in Him, eternally saved because of His righteousness.

What interesting concepts.
I may never leave here...

So who's blowing their horn?

YOU are blowing a really empty horn. Telling new Christians that might be reading along that they are to do NOTHING BUT BELIEVE when the N.T. says otherwise.

Luckily, persons could read for themselves and do not have to listen to our posts here on this thread.


James 1:22-23 New International Version (NIV)

22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.
23 Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror

Are you only listening to the word, or are you DOING what you hear?
Are you DECEIVING yourself?

 

[FranC]

Hello Grace777

It really does baffle me that you feel you need to write assays that have no meaning to try and change the simple meaning of God's Word. I will leave this to you and God. The text is actually very simple my friend and God Word is exactly as it is written...

"And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him." (Acts 5:32)

The original Greek says exactly the same thing and everyone is free to look it up for themselves.

God's Sheep hear His Voice

God bless you my friend

 

[JIMBO43]

Alas, you are right, there is more than enough information in this thread that lays out very clearly true salvation in Jesus!

That people push against the true simple Gospel clearly spelled out in scripture is baffling to me.

They make the work of Jesus necessary but not sufficient,

The twist is that if it is not sufficient then ultimately it was not necessary. There is no middle ground.

The works based group never want to see this.

atlas 4000 years of wars hate and peace and you wreckon one thread like this can cure everything...

thats why hearers of the word only will be everbodies ruin...