Not By Works
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E
So salvation is a reward, Not a grace gift, Salvation must be earned, It is not freely given, Salvation must be purchased by our works, it was not purchased by the redemptive act of God.
Thanks, I will save this post of yours for the next time you deny teaching salvation is earned by works.
By the way, What john said is true,
Those who are saved obey his commands (not perfectly) and it is them who overcome.
How do they overcome?
1 John 4:4
You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.
1 John 5:4
For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
1 John 5:5
Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
Thats how we overcome, By our faith in Christ. Not by works..
Again, Who was it that said they had faith? Yet they think are relying on themselves to overcome?
sad..
E
you just proved how cheep you think grace really is, You just said you had to earn it
You can not earn grace Fran, It must be given to you. Thus you cheapened its value and made it to no affect.
Again, you claim you have faith, You say you do not preach works,
Yet you just preached lack of faith in God, and faiht in self. and works.
make up your mind won't you?
E
I did answer it, Your continued insistence I did not just proves your true unwillingness to discuss
People answer questions with questions all the time.. Which is what I did, Your refusal to respond to them just shows your question was asked to achieve dishonest gain.
ps, I know you do not have to prove your faith to me, You have to prove it to God.
I never asked you to prove your faith to me, You made a claim, That you have faith in God, I asked you to prove your claim.
However, you also have proved you lack of faith to me,, I pray you see this soon..
People answer questions with questions all the time.. Which is what I did, Your refusal to respond to them just shows your question was asked to achieve dishonest gain.
ps, I know you do not have to prove your faith to me, You have to prove it to God.
I never asked you to prove your faith to me, You made a claim, That you have faith in God, I asked you to prove your claim.
However, you also have proved you lack of faith to me,, I pray you see this soon..
E
Cheap gracers?
You have to be in christ first. and that was paid for by Christ and him alone, that was not cheap.
Once your in christ, You are always in christ. in fact you have his assurance, sealed by the HS (eph 1: 13- 14)
Your problem is you think you have to earn the right to be placed in christ. .
You can never earn it fran, Never, you can live the rest of your life and never sin again, and you still will not have earned the right to be called children of God.
You cheapen grace by trying to add your work to the equation, this cheapens the price of the cross.
You have to be in christ first. and that was paid for by Christ and him alone, that was not cheap.
Once your in christ, You are always in christ. in fact you have his assurance, sealed by the HS (eph 1: 13- 14)
Your problem is you think you have to earn the right to be placed in christ. .
You can never earn it fran, Never, you can live the rest of your life and never sin again, and you still will not have earned the right to be called children of God.
You cheapen grace by trying to add your work to the equation, this cheapens the price of the cross.
Gal 3:2 I want to learn only one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by doing the actions of the Law or by believing what you heard?
Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having started out with the Spirit, are you now ending up with the flesh?
Gal 3:4 Did you suffer so much for nothing? (If it really was for nothing!)
Gal 3:5 Does God supply you with the Spirit and work miracles among you because you do the actions of the Law or because you believe what you heard?
Gal 3:6 In the same way, Abraham "believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
Gal 3:7 You see, then, that those who have faith are Abraham's real descendants.
Gal 3:8 Because the Scripture saw ahead of time that God would justify the gentiles by faith, it announced the gospel to Abraham beforehand when it said, "Through you all nations will be blessed."
Gal 3:9 Therefore, those who believe are blessed together with Abraham, the one who believed.
The Righteous Shall Live by Faith
Gal 3:10 Certainly all who depend on the actions of the Law are under a curse. For it is written, "A curse on everyone who does not obey everything that is written in the Book of the Law!"
Gal 3:11 Now it is obvious that no one is justified in the sight of God by the Law, because "The righteous will live by faith."
Gal 3:12 But the Law has nothing to do with faith. Instead, "The person who keeps the commandments will have life in them."
Gal 3:13 The Messiah redeemed us from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse for us. For it is written, "A curse on everyone who is hung on a tree!"
Gal 3:14 This happened in order that the blessing promised to Abraham would come to the gentiles through the Messiah Jesus, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.
Grace is the free gift of Holy Spirit. Who then takes on the responsibility of saving. The comforter, helper, the one is not only within, but alongside.
Now, He will never leave us as far as our spirit. But, if we sin...His "alongside" of us...we call the anointing...may lift for a time until we repent.
It takes a lot for the anointing to lift. Remember, Jesus (God) came into sinful flesh. Why would not Holy Spirit remain in our imperfected soul? Our spirit is different. It's like the egg of the woman...receiving the implanted word or seed...and begins growth to make our soul, our identity, one with what we already have in our spirit. Then are we Sons...otherwise still sheeplike...following laws...getting lost...needing saved.
Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having started out with the Spirit, are you now ending up with the flesh?
Gal 3:4 Did you suffer so much for nothing? (If it really was for nothing!)
Gal 3:5 Does God supply you with the Spirit and work miracles among you because you do the actions of the Law or because you believe what you heard?
Gal 3:6 In the same way, Abraham "believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
Gal 3:7 You see, then, that those who have faith are Abraham's real descendants.
Gal 3:8 Because the Scripture saw ahead of time that God would justify the gentiles by faith, it announced the gospel to Abraham beforehand when it said, "Through you all nations will be blessed."
Gal 3:9 Therefore, those who believe are blessed together with Abraham, the one who believed.
The Righteous Shall Live by Faith
Gal 3:10 Certainly all who depend on the actions of the Law are under a curse. For it is written, "A curse on everyone who does not obey everything that is written in the Book of the Law!"
Gal 3:11 Now it is obvious that no one is justified in the sight of God by the Law, because "The righteous will live by faith."
Gal 3:12 But the Law has nothing to do with faith. Instead, "The person who keeps the commandments will have life in them."
Gal 3:13 The Messiah redeemed us from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse for us. For it is written, "A curse on everyone who is hung on a tree!"
Gal 3:14 This happened in order that the blessing promised to Abraham would come to the gentiles through the Messiah Jesus, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.
Grace is the free gift of Holy Spirit. Who then takes on the responsibility of saving. The comforter, helper, the one is not only within, but alongside.
Now, He will never leave us as far as our spirit. But, if we sin...His "alongside" of us...we call the anointing...may lift for a time until we repent.
It takes a lot for the anointing to lift. Remember, Jesus (God) came into sinful flesh. Why would not Holy Spirit remain in our imperfected soul? Our spirit is different. It's like the egg of the woman...receiving the implanted word or seed...and begins growth to make our soul, our identity, one with what we already have in our spirit. Then are we Sons...otherwise still sheeplike...following laws...getting lost...needing saved.
E
1. Your the one who called God a liar
2. I did use scripture. I used John 6, I used John 3, I used 1 john, and manny other passages.. If you would read you would see it (or maybe you do not know scripture well enough to know when it is being used?)
matt 24 13 is not speaking of eternal salvation, it is talking about those in great tribulation, who will endure great tribulation such as has never been seen before, He is telling them whoever endures to the end of that tribulation (the point of when he returns to put an end to it) will be saved.
now, what was that about you not preaching works again? Enduring is a work.. if you have to endure to be saved eternally then we are not saved by grace, but by works..I can boast of saving myself, I can declare to God I earned my right to enter heaven because I did the hard work of enduring, IE, I saved myself God, I did not need the cross
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, [SUP]9[/SUP]not of works, lest anyone should boast.
You want to boast of saving yourself. feel free. but good luck!
2. I did use scripture. I used John 6, I used John 3, I used 1 john, and manny other passages.. If you would read you would see it (or maybe you do not know scripture well enough to know when it is being used?)
matt 24 13 is not speaking of eternal salvation, it is talking about those in great tribulation, who will endure great tribulation such as has never been seen before, He is telling them whoever endures to the end of that tribulation (the point of when he returns to put an end to it) will be saved.
now, what was that about you not preaching works again? Enduring is a work.. if you have to endure to be saved eternally then we are not saved by grace, but by works..I can boast of saving myself, I can declare to God I earned my right to enter heaven because I did the hard work of enduring, IE, I saved myself God, I did not need the cross
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, [SUP]9[/SUP]not of works, lest anyone should boast.
You want to boast of saving yourself. feel free. but good luck!
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Hello PennEd
Doing OK. Could be better. Could be worse. My best wishes to you and yours also.
I'm rather shocked at how scripture is not understood.
Let's start at Mathew 5:20, as you wish.
Jesus was saying how He did not come to abolish the Law.
He says that he came to fulfill the Law. Fulfill means to make complete. I'm sure you now this.
Mathew 5:17
So, how is the Law made complete?
By moving it from a heart of stone to a heart of flesh.
Ezekiel 36:26
Or, as someone here has stated, from the external to the internal.
Not the smalles stroke or letter will pass from the Law. IOW, we are not to trivialize the Law - it's as important as it has ALWAYS been. God did NOT give the commadments and then decided to take them away.
God is the same Yesterday, today and Tomorrow.
Hebrews 13:8
Whoever ANNULS one of the LEAST OF THESE COMMANDMENTS, and also teaches Others to do the same, will e called the least in the Kingdom
Mathew 5:19a
But who hold these commandments and teachings in high regard, will find Honor in the Kingdom.
Mathew 5:19b
UNLESS YOU DO EVEN BETTER THAN THE PHARISSES IN THE MATTER OF LIVING RIGHTEOUSLY, YOU WILL KNOW NOTHING ABOUT ENTERNG THE KINGDOM.
Mathew 5:20
verse 20 is saying that we MUST DO BETTER than the Pharisees.
We MUST move the commandments from our mind to our hearts.
Then Jesus goes on to show us HOW we are to do this.
Now lust goes beyong physical action, but becomes a HEART action or matter.
Mathew 5:27-28
Is this difficult to understand?
Please take the time to read Mathew again and understand it in context, as you yourself have said.
Jesus did NOT make following the commandments easier, He made it MORE DIFFICULT.
Someone else on this thread had the same idea as you.
It's incorrect if the bible is read at face value and not made to say what WE might want it to say.
Doing OK. Could be better. Could be worse. My best wishes to you and yours also.
I'm rather shocked at how scripture is not understood.
Let's start at Mathew 5:20, as you wish.
Jesus was saying how He did not come to abolish the Law.
He says that he came to fulfill the Law. Fulfill means to make complete. I'm sure you now this.
Mathew 5:17
So, how is the Law made complete?
By moving it from a heart of stone to a heart of flesh.
Ezekiel 36:26
Or, as someone here has stated, from the external to the internal.
Not the smalles stroke or letter will pass from the Law. IOW, we are not to trivialize the Law - it's as important as it has ALWAYS been. God did NOT give the commadments and then decided to take them away.
God is the same Yesterday, today and Tomorrow.
Hebrews 13:8
Whoever ANNULS one of the LEAST OF THESE COMMANDMENTS, and also teaches Others to do the same, will e called the least in the Kingdom
Mathew 5:19a
But who hold these commandments and teachings in high regard, will find Honor in the Kingdom.
Mathew 5:19b
UNLESS YOU DO EVEN BETTER THAN THE PHARISSES IN THE MATTER OF LIVING RIGHTEOUSLY, YOU WILL KNOW NOTHING ABOUT ENTERNG THE KINGDOM.
Mathew 5:20
verse 20 is saying that we MUST DO BETTER than the Pharisees.
We MUST move the commandments from our mind to our hearts.
Then Jesus goes on to show us HOW we are to do this.
Now lust goes beyong physical action, but becomes a HEART action or matter.
Mathew 5:27-28
Is this difficult to understand?
Please take the time to read Mathew again and understand it in context, as you yourself have said.
Jesus did NOT make following the commandments easier, He made it MORE DIFFICULT.
Someone else on this thread had the same idea as you.
It's incorrect if the bible is read at face value and not made to say what WE might want it to say.
This idea is a very potent one, if it is true.
But God demonstrated how He works with Israel. He saved them from the Egyptians, blessed
them, became their King, yet as soon as Moses was gone, they are happy to commit idolatry
and betray the very God who saved them.
Paul uses this as an illustration of God saves us but does not bind us against our will, in fact
quite the opposite. We are to prove to Him our love and loyalty by our obedience.
They all ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did.
1 Cor 10:3-6
So Paul is saying the behaviour of the Israelites are examples for us, so we set our hearts on good
things. God allows us to set our hearts where we choose and we reap the harvest.
But God demonstrated how He works with Israel. He saved them from the Egyptians, blessed
them, became their King, yet as soon as Moses was gone, they are happy to commit idolatry
and betray the very God who saved them.
Paul uses this as an illustration of God saves us but does not bind us against our will, in fact
quite the opposite. We are to prove to Him our love and loyalty by our obedience.
They all ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did.
1 Cor 10:3-6
So Paul is saying the behaviour of the Israelites are examples for us, so we set our hearts on good
things. God allows us to set our hearts where we choose and we reap the harvest.
The Prodigal Son is about a Son who gets his inheritance ahead of time,
Leaves his home and abandons His father,
Goes out into the world and is sorry he did,
Goes back home where his Father is Always waiting for him.
Luke 15:24
THIS SON OF MINE WAS DEAD
AND HAS COME TO LIFE AGAIN
Please notice the AGAIN.
He was saved
He was lost
He was saved again
FURTHER PROOF THAT SALVATON CAN BE LOST.
This is absolute rubbish. You CAN fall away from faith for awhile, then return to God once again. It happens every single day. The story of the prodigal son is NOT about being saved, losing it, and gaining it again.. I think UnderGrace's post sums up very nicely, exactly what the tale of the prodigal son is about.. here it is.. Post #12831.
original quote by UnderGrace:
It is an erroneous assumption to believe that the parable is teaching about salvation that is given and then lost. This parable was launched because Jesus was accused of eating with sinners. He was talking to scribes and Pharisees. Context is always important!
As well, the inheritance in this instance is not analogous to salvation.
The younger son has done the unthinkable and asked for his inheritance before his father has died.
Salvation is inherited as a gift, it not something that is due to us under law.
In the story, the inheritance was something due to the son under Jewish law upon his father’s death.
The parable is driving home a point about the father -- the father who forgives, who is merciful and gracious. He told it to contrast God’s love to that of the religious leaders of that day who were in the audience.
You fail to realize that it is the younger brother who ultimately is sinning more gravely.
E
This example would be great, if it was not so flawed.
Israel survived, It lived all through their unbelief, it suffered at the hands of Assyria, babylon, media and persia, greece and rome, It sufferes even today yet it is alive.
When God makes a promise he keeps it, inspite of ourselves.
the people who left egypt and never entered, they were never saved, They complained from day one, they never had faith in God. thats why they never entered,
But the nation, and gods promise concerning that nation, It survives even till today.
Try to stop looking for examples which prove you are more powerful than God and can cause hi to not keep his promises,
And start looking for how graceful God really is
Many people (including myself at one time) like to look at the OT and see how judgmental God is, When we actually look at it, We see just how merciful God is..
Here we go again:
1. You know exactly what I do and all about me.
2. I'm ignorant, or at least my reply is (so I guess i must be too)
3. WE ARE TO GIVE VERSES!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hoorah! WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO START?????????????
4. Verb tense, verbiage, and context. How's about giving it a try. LIST SOME SCRIPTURE.
I'm sure you've noticed that if someone posts scripture, I DO respond to it.
Basically so those reading along could KNOW THE TRUTH.
5. You're telling me Jesus is casting me aside. I thought YOUR SIDE said that JESUS NEVER tosses anybody aside.
WHICH IS IT??????????
6. Oooops. I'm going to find out something A DAY TOO LATE.
A nice way of saying I'm going to HELL. AGAIN.
At least you found a nicer way of saying it.
You still have never explained why you talk so much about HELL.
I'm not even a believer of eternal security and I NEVER talk about hell, unless YOU bring it up.
Funny.
1. You know exactly what I do and all about me.
2. I'm ignorant, or at least my reply is (so I guess i must be too)
3. WE ARE TO GIVE VERSES!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hoorah! WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO START?????????????
4. Verb tense, verbiage, and context. How's about giving it a try. LIST SOME SCRIPTURE.
I'm sure you've noticed that if someone posts scripture, I DO respond to it.
Basically so those reading along could KNOW THE TRUTH.
5. You're telling me Jesus is casting me aside. I thought YOUR SIDE said that JESUS NEVER tosses anybody aside.
WHICH IS IT??????????
6. Oooops. I'm going to find out something A DAY TOO LATE.
A nice way of saying I'm going to HELL. AGAIN.
At least you found a nicer way of saying it.
You still have never explained why you talk so much about HELL.
I'm not even a believer of eternal security and I NEVER talk about hell, unless YOU bring it up.
Funny.