King James Bible ONLY? Or NOT?
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I see your point on me being inconsistent but I'm actually not being inconsistent and I'm not making the oil irrelevant. I view the candlestick in the same way a you view the lamp stand, a lamp holder with oil flowing through it to illuminate a lamp. I don't know why the KJV translators chose candlestick instead lamp stand, but no matter what the reason, both mean the same - an apparatus that holds a lamp whether it be a wax candle, a light bulb or an oil lamp. I'm not claiming that a wax candle is a better analogy, when the KJV uses the word candlestick or candle it is not talking about a wax candle.
Now, I don't take that approach, because I also understand that slight changes in wording can be understood adequately. You have argued previously that the exact words of the KJV are critical, and that minor variations in wording "can't be used by the Holy Spirit" (I disagree with your assessment, by the way). With regard to being able to speak through the text using words which are "not quite accurate", either the Holy Spirit can or He can't. You're arguing both sides of the same issue, and I call you to be consistent. Your dogmatic approach with other passages now undermines your position here.
I'm still just as dogmatic here
. If we don't give the Spirit of truth the right words, he isn't going to be able to guide us into all truth... this is a riddle meaning that as we read the bible the Spirit of truth will bring other scripture to our minds as we read. If the word we read doesn't coalesce then Spirit can't bring those truths to our minds.John 16:13 KJV
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Our minds automatically think wax candle when we think of a candle because that's the most common meaning of candle, but candle comes from the Latin word candere which means to glow, shine or shoot out light.
candle (n.)
Old English candel "lamp, lantern, candle," an early ecclesiastical borrowing from Latin candela "a light, torch, candle made of tallow or wax," from candere "to shine," from PIE root *kand- "to glow, to shine, to shoot out light" (source also of Sanskrit cand- "to give light, shine," candra- "shining, glowing, moon;" Greek kandaros "coal;" Welsh cann "white;" Middle Irish condud "fuel").Do I think lamp stand would be a better word... yes I do, but who am I to decide the words that God uses in his word. Just because I think another word would have been better deosn't mean another word would serve God's purposes. There is a reason why the KJV translators used candle and candlestick, but I don't know that reason yet... I'm sure there is a golden nugget hidden in those words though.
Oh, please...
Sure, from the context it is cleare that it is not a candle, thats why the word is wrong here. Lamp is the right one.
Vacation update - tropical storm Cindy has caused the beaches to be closed for 3 days now!
Can we are to disagree on the candle/candlestick?
Vacation update - tropical storm Cindy has caused the beaches to be closed for 3 days now!
Great! More time for the Bible!
Do I think lamp stand would be a better word... yes I do, but who am I to decide the words that God uses in his word. Just because I think another word would have been better deosn't mean another word would serve God's purposes. There is a reason why the KJV translators used candle and candlestick, but I don't know that reason yet... I'm sure there is a golden nugget hidden in those words though.
Right. That kind of thinking leads man to be the final authority on what God said. Man is required to read, study, believe, and live it. Man is not to determine which word is the best fit because it sounds better, or it's easier to read and understand.
God gave us the ability to think for ourselves. Repeatedly you obliquely assert that the KJV translators are the final authority for all time, and effectively avow checking our brains at the door on the way in. It has been demonstrated that some KJV words are not current in their meanings. That has nothing to do with the reader being the final authority, but with the reality that language changes over time. Even if "candlestick" were the current term for what we would call a "lampstand" (which I doubt), it is still not the correct term today.
It's not easy to explain, the words in the bible are just words but there is a spirit behind those words... that is what I am calling Jesus. What is your take on the verse below?
John 6:63 KJV
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Our minds automatically think wax candle when we think of a candle because that's the most common meaning of candle, but candle comes from the Latin word candere which means to glow, shine or shoot out light.
candle (n.)
Do I think lamp stand would be a better word... yes I do, but who am I to decide the words that God uses in his word. Just because I think another word would have been better deosn't mean another word would serve God's purposes. There is a reason why the KJV translators used candle and candlestick, but I don't know that reason yet... I'm sure there is a golden nugget hidden in those words though.
That which glows to also be raised up; made sure it is seen..
When a word is updated and changed, it has great significance to the overall word of truth. I give no credit to the translators but to God who promised to preserve His pure words for us. My trust is in God not man or myself.
The Holy Spirit's job within us is not to help us determine which word to go with, but to help understand the word that is given. It all starts with having faith that the words are right and of God.
You know that John uses very simple Greek and so very simple sentences, its everywhere in his writings.
So even it is said simply, it means a little deeper thing - teachings of Christ bring life and are spiritual.
I doubt that candlestick was ever the current term, even in 1611 but consider this. If the bible is an esoteric book (which it is) and it's written so that the true meaning is hidden in the symbolic language does it make sense that the hidden meaning would still be maintained if the language is updated to modern language?
Although I agree with you, I think that it goes further. Jesus is talking about eating his flesh and drinking his blood. The "spirit" of those words, eating his flesh and drinking his blood do bring life... Do you see what I mean? The letter is the words he spoke, but the spirit and life of those words are the hidden meaning of those words.
In this hidden meaning is where we find the spirit or personality of Christ, it goes WAY beyond the letter. This is what I'm trying to show, this is where the spirit of Christ is found.
Esoteric is diametrically opposed to the meaning of God's purposes for His Word. God's Word is for the masses and even a child can enter in. It is to be understood plainly; study not withstanding. But it is never to be purposed to be "Abstruse"; intended for only a small group whom God would have thought would be His elect in a specialized knowledge to understand. That premise, which gives voice to your next statement of "Hidden Meanings," is without clout or influence due to the fact the premise is lacking sober judgement. Modern language then, is not abstracting from any magical words of hidden repute, but is applying itself to the actual words connotations. This is not losing its meaning, it is shedding a different light on the meaning at hand still holding to the literal connotation.
The fact that God's word is hdden from the world and revealed to his own is found in John 14:23. Verse 23 gives the how... and this verse itself is esoteric in that you have to know what "His Words" are.
John 14:22-23 KJV
Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
[23] Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
You have gone from the NIV to the KJV... I have been reading and studying the KJV since the age of 13 and I am now 71... I have heard preacher after preacher speak from it over 58 years and in all that time not one ever said God's Spirit resides in the KJV... My KJV is composed of leather, paper and ink... The Spirit is not in the words but in the God who said them, and his Son the Lord Jesus Christ who lived and taught them and the Holy Spirit that reveals these truths to us sinful mortals... Do not get me wrong every word of God is precious but unless this cold and stony heart is changed to a heart of flesh by divine intervention, the words of God in any translation don't mean a thing... Remember the admonition of Paul to Timothy, I think you are sadly lacking in rightly dividing the word of truth... Brother Glen
2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
You/ve been in the KJV all your life, do you believe every single word in that KJV is right?
Funny story, the KJV Bible does not refer to us after conversion as sinful mortals....guess in all that studying this passed you by.
Anyone who has to tell people how many years they have studied or how many cemetery degrees they have or what bible college they went to is trying to establish control over another.