"TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

[Yonah]

Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

Judaizing comes under anathema...Galatians 1 is clear on that. Anyone who claims the Mosaic Covenant is still in effect is in severe doctrinal error.

Regarding my experience with Armstrongism, until I came to this chat room four years ago, I didn't even think about it much. Then, I came into contact with Hebrew Roots/Messianic Jew/"Torah Observers" nuts who were very open about their position that others are in sin for non-observance, particularly of days and meat laws.

I have no doubt that many of them believe the Protestant church is in grave error concerning this issue. They make remarks such as claiming that there are 60,000 different denominations and that is proof that Christianity has strayed off the path. Underneath these sorts of claims is the mentality of someone who thinks he has the spiritual upper hand and is qualified to judge orthodox Christianity.

One such individual made the claim that Reformed theology is Satanic so I have no issue with addressing his Judaizing as heretical and under anathema. He can preach all he wants about tolerance but his remarks show his issues. It is hilarious how it becomes persecution and hatred when someone else addresses his issues, but it is not when he calls an entire sector of Christianity Satanic.

At any rate, notice that I have said the Mosaic Covenant cannot be observed because there is no Levitical priesthood and no Temple. Addtionally, Galatians 3-4 gives the time period that it was in effect. Those who claim to be observing it, and judging others of being in sin for non-observance, are fooling themselves by thinking they are observing it. And, this claim is part and parcel of being a Judaizer. I made the same claim myself...that others were in sin due to their non-observance.

I have no issue with those who simply want to observe some facsimile of festivals or Sabbath as valuable shadows and types but they should not fool themselves into thinking they are observing the Mosaic Covenant because it cannot be observed now.

good to know , however you repeatedly called me a judaizer and the only reason you do so is because I made a statement in open chat calling calvanism what it is and it made you mad. that's fine, I don't need anyone to agree with me, however you have no clue exactly what I believe or why and how I apply what I do believe, so next time you wish to bring a personal attack against me, get your facts straight or leave it be, I find it revealing you would respond to this post.... seems the shoe
fits after all.

 

[sparkman]

Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

I find it amusing how these Torah observer types use the Hebrew proper names in an attempt to show their superior knowledge, and refuse to say "Jesus".

A similar attitude was part of Armstrongism. I was taught to disdain other Christians and their devotion to their Savior. Using the word "Jesus" alone was associated with syrupy sweet Protestantism and didnt portray the virile, masculine image of Jesus that Armstrongites had. So, I never used the name Jesus alone but only used Christ or Jesus Christ. I'm sure Jesus is manly, but the overall attitude of such conventions was wrong. It was accusatory in nature.

I think it's similar to the use of "thee" and "thou" by some of the pious groups of the past. The hope is that others will notice their word choices are different and they think that commends them to God.

I've listened to some Torah observers for years and most never say Jesus. That makes me wonder about them. One of them is saying Jesus occasionally and that gives me some hope he is escaping some of their lunacy.

i am reasonably intelligent like most Christians and could easily learn a handful of Hebrew words and use them continually to make myself appear more holy (or less Gentile which is the same as holiness in their book) but wouldn't that display my contempt for those who don't use Hebrew names? The apostles used the common language of their listeners despite Torah observer claims. I think that's what is going on. They wear their pride like a necklace(like Proverbs says) and want others to know that they are set apart from ordinary "Gentile" Christians.

i am not talking about real Jews in my remarks. I understand the issues with reaching out to Jewish people and how using Yeshua or other Hebrew names helps the Jewish person overcome negative stereotypes about Christianity being only for Gentiles. I am addressing the obvious attempt by some Gentiles pretending to be Jews to exalt their alleged superior spirituality and knowledge. I find it amusing when the person can't even spell in English so it's pretty doubtful their command of Hebrew is good.

Some say I am intolerant and judgmental for commenting on this. If that is true, fine. At least my alleged intolerance isn't covert but is overt. No one accuses me of being subtle. I don't hide my agenda. Paul didn't either when he called Judaizers dogs in Philippians 3 and declared them anathema in Galatians 1.

 

[sparkman]

Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

good to know , however you repeatedly called me a judaizer and the only reason you do so is because I made a statement in open chat calling calvanism what it is and it made you mad. that's fine, I don't need anyone to agree with me, however you have no clue exactly what I believe or why and how I apply what I do believe, so next time you wish to bring a personal attack against me, get your facts straight or leave it be, I find it revealing you would respond to this post.... seems the shoe
fits after all.

Havent you said that those who don't keep the Sabbath are sinning? If not, then what is your position on that? I remember this being a lengthy discussion in the Bible Study room. Regardless, this isn't about you strictly as there are a lot of different individuals on this site that claim the Mosaic Covenant/Law is in effect and that those who aren't keeping the Sabbath, festivals and clean meat laws are sinning.

Some are basically evangelizing. One individual bragged to me that several had accepted the Sabbath due to his efforts. He was as prideful as if he had led someone to Jesus. This issue is a blight upon Christianity.

Concerning your claim that Reformed theology is Satanic, I'm not discussing that with someone who is obviously not equipped for such a discussion. Keep patting yourself on the back for being your co-savior and convincing yourself that God really doesn't choose, elect or predestine for salvation. I'm not double jointed so I can't pat myself on the back, and I'm not blind so I can't ignore what Scripture clearly says.

By the way, I'd appreciate seeing the proof you have that Michelle Obama is really a guy. That makes me laugh every time I think about it Sabbathkeepers and their conspiracy theory mentalities crack me up lol.

And, did you ever read Romans 13? Your continual disrespect towards governmental authorities doesn't indicate it. I was no fan of Obama either but there are parameters Scripture assigns regarding this issue.

 

[Muzungu256]

Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

I find it amusing how these Torah observer types use the Hebrew proper names in an attempt to show their superior knowledge, and refuse to say "Jesus".

this kind of annoys me too for some reason lol im petty but its like why not just say Jesus in your own language why use foreign language.................

 

[sparkman]

Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

I notice it's also a common retort by them that "I will keep MY FATHER'S commandments" as if 1) you are disobedient or 2) he is not your Father. As an Armstrongite I wasn't dumb enough to make such remarks but the attitude was definitely there.

 

[kinda]

Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

Where is the love?

 

[Muzungu256]

Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

I notice it's also a common retort by them that "I will keep MY FATHER'S commandments" as if 1) you are disobedient or 2) he is not your Father. As an Armstrongite I wasn't dumb enough to make such remarks but the attitude was definitely there.

what exactly is armstrongite?????????? what churches are these............ and what would you recommend what church to attend?????? i know herbert armstrong started 'church of God' didnt he?

 

[Rockrz]

Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

I made a statement in open chat calling calvanism what it is and it made you mad.

Hey, anyone who made one of calvin's followers upset is a good chap in my book!

Where is the love?

Did you check behind the couch?

It might be back there with your stinky socks...

 

[sparkman]

Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

Hey, anyone who made one of calvin's followers upset is a good chap in my book!

Did you check behind the couch?

It might be back there with your stinky socks...

Pretty funny but notice those who criticize Calvinism often misspell it so that shows you the depth of their ignorance. If I was going to criticize a theology I think I would at least know how to spell it.



I prefer the label "Reformed Theology" or monergism anyways.

 

[sparkman]

Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

what exactly is armstrongite?????????? what churches are these............ and what would you recommend what church to attend?????? i know herbert armstrong started 'church of God' didnt he?

An Armstrongite is a follower of Herbert Armstrong's teachings. My mom was a member of his organization and I had the misfortune of being involved with them as a young man. There are Armstrongite organizations today including United Church of God, Philadelphia Church of God, Restored Church of God and Living Church of God.

Armstrongites are Judaizers who claim nonobservers are in sin. They also claim that they will become fully God in the resurrection and that they are the true church.


I recommend Evangelical Free Church of America, Christian and Missionary Alliance, Grace Brethren, or Reformed Baptists. There are also good church finders on 9marks and Acts 29 network sites.

Evangelical Free Church of America is my favorite of the bunch.

 

[sparkman]

Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

Where is the love?

Might ask your Sabbathkeeping buddy Yonah. He claims Reformed theology is Satanic and also spends time degrading the church by pointing to denominationalism and how much error has crept into it. This is typical Sabbathkeeper ranting and I'm guessing you've been around them enough to know what I'm saying is true. Sabbathkeepers know I'm right on this.

Their narrative is driven by a paranoid mindset that claims NonSabbatarians have been fooled by a false religious system originating with either Constantine or the Roman Catholic Church usually. Their belief system represents the true faith that the rest of us have deviated from. Blah blah blah.

 

[sparkman]

Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

Another inconsistency is whining about being persecuted after heaving boulders at other people.

Observers openly criticize others but when their issues are addressed, they assume the posture of the persecuted faithful remnant. I saw that played out on a regular basis with Armstrongism. Armstrong gets on nationwide TV calling Christians "dumb sheep headed to the slaughter". But if any Christian apologetics group addressed their issues they became "the persecuted faithful little flock".

This behavior isn't limited to Armstrongism.

 

[kisharena80]

Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

Yes, but this is a separate issue. The "traditions of the elders" aren't something that held any authority.

Prior to the New Covenant made in Christ's blood, the Mosaic Covenant had authority. It has no authority now. See the verses I listed in the initial post.

My simple question would be, do you think those who don't observe the Saturday Sabbath, festivals and clean meat laws are in sin?

Or, do you think those observances were shadows and types that pointed to spiritual realities?

As an ex-Sabbath, festival, clean meat law observer, I am convicted of the second position..they were shadows and types pointing toward spiritual realities.

The Sabbath pointed to Christ as our spiritual rest. The festivals pointed to aspects of Christ's redeeming work. The clean meat laws pointed to the spiritual reality of avoiding spiritual uncleanness or sin.

Maybe you would hold the same view...I can't tell for sure given your wording.

This reminds me of another inconsistency...the claim that clean meat laws must be observed, but not all the other unclean laws. For instance, despite what they claim, it defiled a person to touch a monstrous woman, and this was NOT restricted to the priesthood or sexual touching.

But, how many Torah observers avoid contact with their wives or daughters for the prescribed period? Do they require the menstruating women in their fellowships to identify themselves?

No, usually not. Instead, they try to reason around these commandments by claiming that they only applied to the priest and not the general Israelite, or they try to claim it was speaking of sexual intercourse.

Or, do they destroy all cooking utensils that touched an unclean animal, as is required in the same sections that teach about unclean meats? Do they buy new stoves that have never been used to cook any unclean animal? Do they eat at any restaurants that also cook unclean meat? No, rarely do they do this.

But, all of this would be consistent with observing the Torah. And, this isn't a matter of man's tradition. It can be reasonably inferred from the Scriptures.

So can the commandment for all men to go to Jerusalem 3 times a year for the festivals. And, practicality is not a consideration with regards to Torah.

The reason that so many Torah observers claim that Torah is easy to observe is because they don't really observe it. They observe their pick and choose, cafeteria plan version of it.

Acts 15 and Galatians 5 called it a "yoke of bondage" and the metaphor of slavery is also used in regards to observing it. Basically, they are calling the apostles liars by claiming Torah is easy to observe.

Usually what they try to do is claim that the Scriptures I referenced are talking about the "Oral Law of Moses" or "traditions of the elders". This isn't true as the phrase "law of Moses" is used in both Acts 15 and by Paul in I Corinthians to refer to the written law..specifically Deuteronomy, where he said that an ox should not be muzzled when treading out grain, and he referred to the "law of Moses". It comes from Deuteronomy, therefore it's not any part of any written tradition, despite claims I've heard from "Torah Observers" here.

Compare Deuteronomy 25:4 with I Corinthians 9:9 with Acts 15:5.

This is just one of the tactics "Torah Observer" teachers attempt to use to claim that Torah must be observed..and their focus is particularly on meats and days.

I also find it amusing that some of my friends claim to be Torah Observers, but they don't follow what the Torah says with regards to cleaning their house completely of all leaven, AND living in a Sukkoth or booth for the Feast of Tabernacles. Instead, many of them don't clean their house of all leaven, and they live in nice comfortable hotel rooms instead of a booth or tabernacle during the festival. Some build SYMBOLIC booths but they don't occupy them like the Mosaic Covenant required.

Some might use their climate as an excuse..that it is cold in September or October...firstly, the Law requires that they go to Jerusalem, and if they don't, they are in violation of the commandment. Second, you're the one who is claiming that keeping the Mosaic Covenant isn't a burden, so build your Sukkoth and occupy it for 7 days. Hotel rooms are not a substitute. You have no authorization to change God's laws whatsoever, and if the Mosaic Covenant is in effect, you aren't allowed to modify it. And, make sure you bring your money to buy your sin offering animals, and good luck finding the Temple because it's not there anymore, and good luck finding a real Levitical priest to offer it, because the geneology records were destroyed in AD70 and no one can prove their Levitical priesthood status.

So, quit making excuses, "Torah Observers".

Oh gosh Sparkman do I sense a hint of smartasm in this post

 

[Muzungu256]

Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

kisharena80 is really pretty

 

[LoveGodForever]

Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

Hello Everyone

Let me say I am amazed at this particular thread as there seems to be a lot of misinformation being spread. I would like to suggest it is because people do not actually understand what the meaning of Torah is. I would like to suggest that everyone that professes to be a Jew or a Christian is a Torah believer. So why do I say this?

What does the Word Torah mean?

"Torah" also called "Pentateuch from the Greek" is the first five books of the Bible (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy). These are also called the book of Moses as they were written by Moses.

Torah

Level: Basic
[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD] • Torah in the narrowest sense refers to the first five books of the Bible
• In a broader sense, Torah includes all Jewish law and tradition
• Torah was given to Moses in written form with oral commentary
• The oral component is now written in the Talmud
• There are additional important writings

The word "Torah" is a tricky one, because it can mean different things in different contexts. In its most limited sense, "Torah" refers to the Five Books of Moses: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy. But the word "torah" can also be used to refer to the entire Jewish bible (the body of scripture known to non-Jews as the Old Testament and to Jews as the Tanakh or Written Torah), or in its broadest sense, to the whole body of Jewish law and teachings.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Written Torah

To Jews, there is no "Old Testament." The books that Christians call the New Testament are not part of Jewish scripture. The so-called Old Testament is known to us as Written Torah or the Tanakh.
This is a list of the books of Written Torah, in the order in which they appear in Jewish translations, with the Hebrew name of the book, a translation of the Hebrew name (where it is not the same as the English name), and English names of the books (where it is not the same as the Hebrew name). The Hebrew names of the first five books are derived from the first few words of the book. The text of each book is more or less the same in Jewish translations as what you see in Christian bibles, although there are some occasional, slight differences in the numbering of verses and there are some significant differences in the translations.


TORAH (The Law):

• Bereishith (In the beginning...) (Genesis)
• Shemoth (The names...) (Exodus)
• Vayiqra (And He called...) (Leviticus)
• Bamidbar (In the wilderness...) (Numbers)
• Devarim (The words...) (Deuteronomy)

NEVI'IM (The Prophets):

• Yehoshua (Joshua)
• Shoftim (Judges)
• Shmuel (I &II Samuel)
• Melakhim (I & II Kings)
• Yeshayah (Isaiah)
• Yirmyah (Jeremiah)
• Yechezqel (Ezekiel)
• The Twelve (treated as one book):
  • Hoshea (Hosea)
  • Yoel (Joel)
  • Amos
  • Ovadyah (Obadiah)
  • Yonah (Jonah)
  • Mikhah (Micah)
  • Nachum
  • Chavaqquq (Habbakkuk)
  • Tzefanyah (Zephaniah)
  • Chaggai
  • Zekharyah (Zechariah)
  • Malakhi

KETHUVIM (The Writings):

• Tehillim (Psalms)
• Mishlei (Proverbs)
• Iyov (Job)
• Shir Ha-Shirim (Song of Songs)
• Ruth
• Eikhah (Lamentations)
• Qoheleth (the author's name) (Ecclesiastes)
• Esther
• Daniel
• Ezra & Nechemyah (Nehemiah) (treated as one book)
• Divrei Ha-Yamim (The words of the days) (Chronicles)

Written Torah is often referred to as the Tanakh, which is an acrostic of Torah, Nevi'im and Ketuvim.

This is just a cut and paste but you can find more information from (Wiki) or other websites if your interested.

So if your saying that as a Christians who follow Jesus, we should not believe the first five books of the Bible written by Moses (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy) then you need to be very careful because God tells us that...

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. " (2Tim 3:16)

"And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God. (Matt 4:4; Luke 4:4)

Hello Everyone

Let me say I am amazed at this thread particular thread as there seems to be a lot of misinformation being spread. I would like to suggest it is because people do not actually understand what the meaning of Torah is. I would like to suggest that everyone that professes to be a Jew or a Christian is a Torah observer. So why do I say this?

What does the Word Torah mean?

Torah also called "Pentateuch from the Greek" is the first five books of the Bible (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy). These are also called the book of Moses as they were written by Moses.

Torah

Level: Basic
[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD] • Torah in the narrowest sense refers to the first five books of the Bible
• In a broader sense, Torah includes all Jewish law and tradition
• Torah was given to Moses in written form with oral commentary
• The oral component is now written in the Talmud
• There are additional important writings

The word "Torah" is a tricky one, because it can mean different things in different contexts. In its most limited sense, "Torah" refers to the Five Books of Moses: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy. But the word "torah" can also be used to refer to the entire Jewish bible (the body of scripture known to non-Jews as the Old Testament and to Jews as the Tanakh or Written Torah), or in its broadest sense, to the whole body of Jewish law and teachings.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Written Torah

To Jews, there is no "Old Testament." The books that Christians call the New Testament are not part of Jewish scripture. The so-called Old Testament is known to us as Written Torah or the Tanakh.
This is a list of the books of Written Torah, in the order in which they appear in Jewish translations, with the Hebrew name of the book, a translation of the Hebrew name (where it is not the same as the English name), and English names of the books (where it is not the same as the Hebrew name). The Hebrew names of the first five books are derived from the first few words of the book. The text of each book is more or less the same in Jewish translations as what you see in Christian bibles, although there are some occasional, slight differences in the numbering of verses and there are some significant differences in the translations.


TORAH (The Law):

• Bereishith (In the beginning...) (Genesis)
• Shemoth (The names...) (Exodus)
• Vayiqra (And He called...) (Leviticus)
• Bamidbar (In the wilderness...) (Numbers)
• Devarim (The words...) (Deuteronomy)

NEVI'IM (The Prophets):

• Yehoshua (Joshua)
• Shoftim (Judges)
• Shmuel (I &II Samuel)
• Melakhim (I & II Kings)
• Yeshayah (Isaiah)
• Yirmyah (Jeremiah)
• Yechezqel (Ezekiel)
• The Twelve (treated as one book):
  • Hoshea (Hosea)
  • Yoel (Joel)
  • Amos
  • Ovadyah (Obadiah)
  • Yonah (Jonah)
  • Mikhah (Micah)
  • Nachum
  • Chavaqquq (Habbakkuk)
  • Tzefanyah (Zephaniah)
  • Chaggai
  • Zekharyah (Zechariah)
  • Malakhi

KETHUVIM (The Writings):

• Tehillim (Psalms)
• Mishlei (Proverbs)
• Iyov (Job)
• Shir Ha-Shirim (Song of Songs)
• Ruth
• Eikhah (Lamentations)
• Qoheleth (the author's name) (Ecclesiastes)
• Esther
• Daniel
• Ezra & Nechemyah (Nehemiah) (treated as one book)
• Divrei Ha-Yamim (The words of the days) (Chronicles)

Written Torah is often referred to as the Tanakh, which is an acrostic of Torah, Nevi'im and Ketuvim.

This is just a cut and paste but you can find more information from (Wiki) or other websites if your interested.

So if your saying that as a Christians who follow Jesus, we should not believe the first five books of the Bible written by Moses (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy) then you need to be very careful because God tells us that...

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. " (2Tim 3:16)

"And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God. (Matt 4:4; Luke 4:4)

"Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away." (Matt 24:35)

In fact nearly everything written in the New Testament comes from the Old Testament and together these make up our Christian Bible (the Word of God). Ok sorry for the long post hope this my help those that may be confused as to what that Torah actually is.

God bless you all

 

[LoveGodForever]

Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

sorry about the double cut and paste for the Torah meaning in the last thread... ran out of time edit it out

God bless

 

[sparkman]

Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

Hello Everyone

Let me say I am amazed at this particular thread as there seems to be a lot of misinformation being spread. I would like to suggest it is because people do not actually understand what the meaning of Torah is. I would like to suggest that everyone that professes to be a Jew or a Christian is a Torah believer. So why do I say this?

What does the Word Torah mean?

"Torah" also called "Pentateuch from the Greek" is the first five books of the Bible (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy). These are also called the book of Moses as they were written by Moses.

Torah

Level: Basic
[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD] • Torah in the narrowest sense refers to the first five books of the Bible
• In a broader sense, Torah includes all Jewish law and tradition
• Torah was given to Moses in written form with oral commentary
• The oral component is now written in the Talmud
• There are additional important writings

The word "Torah" is a tricky one, because it can mean different things in different contexts. In its most limited sense, "Torah" refers to the Five Books of Moses: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy. But the word "torah" can also be used to refer to the entire Jewish bible (the body of scripture known to non-Jews as the Old Testament and to Jews as the Tanakh or Written Torah), or in its broadest sense, to the whole body of Jewish law and teachings.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Written Torah

To Jews, there is no "Old Testament." The books that Christians call the New Testament are not part of Jewish scripture. The so-called Old Testament is known to us as Written Torah or the Tanakh.
This is a list of the books of Written Torah, in the order in which they appear in Jewish translations, with the Hebrew name of the book, a translation of the Hebrew name (where it is not the same as the English name), and English names of the books (where it is not the same as the Hebrew name). The Hebrew names of the first five books are derived from the first few words of the book. The text of each book is more or less the same in Jewish translations as what you see in Christian bibles, although there are some occasional, slight differences in the numbering of verses and there are some significant differences in the translations.


TORAH (The Law):

• Bereishith (In the beginning...) (Genesis)
• Shemoth (The names...) (Exodus)
• Vayiqra (And He called...) (Leviticus)
• Bamidbar (In the wilderness...) (Numbers)
• Devarim (The words...) (Deuteronomy)

NEVI'IM (The Prophets):

• Yehoshua (Joshua)
• Shoftim (Judges)
• Shmuel (I &II Samuel)
• Melakhim (I & II Kings)
• Yeshayah (Isaiah)
• Yirmyah (Jeremiah)
• Yechezqel (Ezekiel)
• The Twelve (treated as one book):
  • Hoshea (Hosea)
  • Yoel (Joel)
  • Amos
  • Ovadyah (Obadiah)
  • Yonah (Jonah)
  • Mikhah (Micah)
  • Nachum
  • Chavaqquq (Habbakkuk)
  • Tzefanyah (Zephaniah)
  • Chaggai
  • Zekharyah (Zechariah)
  • Malakhi

KETHUVIM (The Writings):

• Tehillim (Psalms)
• Mishlei (Proverbs)
• Iyov (Job)
• Shir Ha-Shirim (Song of Songs)
• Ruth
• Eikhah (Lamentations)
• Qoheleth (the author's name) (Ecclesiastes)
• Esther
• Daniel
• Ezra & Nechemyah (Nehemiah) (treated as one book)
• Divrei Ha-Yamim (The words of the days) (Chronicles)

Written Torah is often referred to as the Tanakh, which is an acrostic of Torah, Nevi'im and Ketuvim.

This is just a cut and paste but you can find more information from (Wiki) or other websites if your interested.

So if your saying that as a Christians who follow Jesus, we should not believe the first five books of the Bible written by Moses (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy) then you need to be very careful because God tells us that...

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. " (2Tim 3:16)

"And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God. (Matt 4:4; Luke 4:4)

Hello Everyone

Let me say I am amazed at this thread particular thread as there seems to be a lot of misinformation being spread. I would like to suggest it is because people do not actually understand what the meaning of Torah is. I would like to suggest that everyone that professes to be a Jew or a Christian is a Torah observer. So why do I say this?

What does the Word Torah mean?

Torah also called "Pentateuch from the Greek" is the first five books of the Bible (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy). These are also called the book of Moses as they were written by Moses.

Torah

Level: Basic
[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD] • Torah in the narrowest sense refers to the first five books of the Bible
• In a broader sense, Torah includes all Jewish law and tradition
• Torah was given to Moses in written form with oral commentary
• The oral component is now written in the Talmud
• There are additional important writings

The word "Torah" is a tricky one, because it can mean different things in different contexts. In its most limited sense, "Torah" refers to the Five Books of Moses: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy. But the word "torah" can also be used to refer to the entire Jewish bible (the body of scripture known to non-Jews as the Old Testament and to Jews as the Tanakh or Written Torah), or in its broadest sense, to the whole body of Jewish law and teachings.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Written Torah

To Jews, there is no "Old Testament." The books that Christians call the New Testament are not part of Jewish scripture. The so-called Old Testament is known to us as Written Torah or the Tanakh.
This is a list of the books of Written Torah, in the order in which they appear in Jewish translations, with the Hebrew name of the book, a translation of the Hebrew name (where it is not the same as the English name), and English names of the books (where it is not the same as the Hebrew name). The Hebrew names of the first five books are derived from the first few words of the book. The text of each book is more or less the same in Jewish translations as what you see in Christian bibles, although there are some occasional, slight differences in the numbering of verses and there are some significant differences in the translations.


TORAH (The Law):

• Bereishith (In the beginning...) (Genesis)
• Shemoth (The names...) (Exodus)
• Vayiqra (And He called...) (Leviticus)
• Bamidbar (In the wilderness...) (Numbers)
• Devarim (The words...) (Deuteronomy)

NEVI'IM (The Prophets):

• Yehoshua (Joshua)
• Shoftim (Judges)
• Shmuel (I &II Samuel)
• Melakhim (I & II Kings)
• Yeshayah (Isaiah)
• Yirmyah (Jeremiah)
• Yechezqel (Ezekiel)
• The Twelve (treated as one book):
  • Hoshea (Hosea)
  • Yoel (Joel)
  • Amos
  • Ovadyah (Obadiah)
  • Yonah (Jonah)
  • Mikhah (Micah)
  • Nachum
  • Chavaqquq (Habbakkuk)
  • Tzefanyah (Zephaniah)
  • Chaggai
  • Zekharyah (Zechariah)
  • Malakhi

KETHUVIM (The Writings):

• Tehillim (Psalms)
• Mishlei (Proverbs)
• Iyov (Job)
• Shir Ha-Shirim (Song of Songs)
• Ruth
• Eikhah (Lamentations)
• Qoheleth (the author's name) (Ecclesiastes)
• Esther
• Daniel
• Ezra & Nechemyah (Nehemiah) (treated as one book)
• Divrei Ha-Yamim (The words of the days) (Chronicles)

Written Torah is often referred to as the Tanakh, which is an acrostic of Torah, Nevi'im and Ketuvim.

This is just a cut and paste but you can find more information from (Wiki) or other websites if your interested.

So if your saying that as a Christians who follow Jesus, we should not believe the first five books of the Bible written by Moses (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy) then you need to be very careful because God tells us that...

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. " (2Tim 3:16)

"And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God. (Matt 4:4; Luke 4:4)

"Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away." (Matt 24:35)

In fact nearly everything written in the New Testament comes from the Old Testament and together these make up our Christian Bible (the Word of God). Ok sorry for the long post hope this my help those that may be confused as to what that Torah actually is.

God bless you all

Firstly, the Torah is inspired Scripture and contains moral and spiritual principles that a spirit-led Christian can be guided by. And there are many shadows and types that are contained within the Torah that are valuable to us all. No one is claiming otherwise. The issue that is being addressed is whether the Torahs commandments to ancient Israel are requirements for believers today and the Scriptures I mentioned in the initial thread answer that: NO.

Christians do not have to keep the Sabbath, festivals, clean meat laws. And, those who claim they are keeping Torah are in denial because they CAN'T and they DON'T. There is no Levitical priesthood to offer their sacrifices and there is no Temple or tabernacle to offer them in. These things, along with the land of Palestine itself, are integral to keeping Torah. All that Judaizers are doing is CLAIMING to observe Torah while only observing, at best, a subset of Torah in an incomplete and arbitrary fashion while proclaiming themselves to be obedient to God and looking down on "Gentile Christians"; if they consider them believers at all.

Here is a good video that refutes the idea that Moses received an Oral Law or Halakh that is no longer in effect and this is what Acts 15 and Galatians is talking about:


https://askdrbrown.org/library/what-about-oral-law-0

By the way Dr. Michael Brown is a PhD in Semitic Languages and is an observant Messianic Jew but does not claim Torah is binding. Judaizers dislike him for that reason. They also don't like him because he exposes their Hebrew pictographic alphabet assertions for the foolishness it is.

Additionally during Josiah's time the written Torah was lost so what chance is there that a parallel Oral Law survived that period? None.

I have heard the Judaizers attempt to make these claims before and they are bogus.

 

[LoveGodForever]

Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

Firstly, the Torah is inspired Scripture and contains moral and spiritual principles that a spirit-led Christian can be guided by. And there are many shadows and types that are contained within the Torah that are valuable to us all. No one is claiming otherwise. The issue that is being addressed is whether the Torahs commandments to ancient Israel are requirements for believers today and the Scriptures I mentioned in the initial thread answer that: NO.

Christians do not have to keep the Sabbath, festivals, clean meat laws. And, those who claim they are keeping Torah are in denial because they CAN'T and they DON'T. There is no Levitical priesthood to offer their sacrifices and there is no Temple or tabernacle to offer them in. These things, along with the land of Palestine itself, are integral to keeping Torah. All that Judaizers are doing is CLAIMING to observe Torah while only observing, at best, a subset of Torah in an incomplete and arbitrary fashion while proclaiming themselves to be obedient to God and looking down on "Gentile Christians"; if they consider them believers at all.

Here is a good video that refutes the idea that Moses received an Oral Law or Halakh that is no longer in effect and this is what Acts 15 and Galatians is talking about:

By the way Dr. Michael Brown is a PhD in Semitic Languages and is an observant Messianic Jew but does not claim Torah is binding. Judaizers dislike him for that reason. They also don't like him because he exposes their Hebrew pictographic alphabet assertions for the foolishness it is.

Additionally during Josiah's time the written Torah was lost so what chance is there that a parallel Oral Law survived that period? None.

I have heard the Judaizers attempt to make these claims before and they are bogus.

Hello Sparkman,

So nice to meet you here. I think the Key message should be that "Man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. The Torah or the first five books of the Bible (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy) are very much apart of the Old and New Testament otherwise God would not have given them to us.

If your referring to the Books of Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy which mainly describe the laws of Moses that are included in the sanctuary service, animal sacrifice for the sins of God's people, the ceremonial, civil and health laws as well as holy days, feasts and festivals, much of these (not all) were a shadow or type outlining the plan of salvation (much of this is related to the old covenant before Jesus came and is not applicable to Christians today who follow the new covenant).

Much of these pointed to the coming of Jesus as the Lamb of God which takes away the sins of the world (John 1:29;36) His work on earth as our sacrifice for our sins, his resurrection and work as our great high priest in the Sanctuary made by God in Heaven (Hebrews). I agree with much you say above so probably do not need to say much more. But you make a mistake if you think that types and shadows outlining the plan of salvation in Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy is referring to God's 4th commandment (Ex 20:8-11). The above books were written by Moses to outline the plan of salvation after the fall of mankind and pointed to the new covenant we now have in Christ.

May God bless you

 

[oldethennew]

Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

good to know , however you repeatedly called me a judaizer and the only reason you do so is because I made a statement in open chat calling calvanism what it is and it made you mad. that's fine, I don't need anyone to agree with me, however you have no clue exactly what I believe or why and how I apply what I do believe, so next time you wish to bring a personal attack against me, get your facts straight or leave it be, I find it revealing you would respond to this post.... seems the shoe
fits after all.

===========================================
please, Jonah, don't take offence, this person has obviously been abused in
ways that some can never comprehend, and of course, it all started at his a home/life.
denial is one of satan's greatest form of deception in order to get one to follow
his demented ways...

much prayer is needed here in order to beseech our Heavenly Father to intervene for healing...

may God Bless You for your kind ways in not being one of satan's accursers...
we commend your for your strength and courage and Love...

 

[Muzungu256]

Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

this claim is very common in the trinity denier etc circles:

"Christadelphians believe the doctrines they reject were introduced into Christendom after the 1st century in large part through exposure to pagan Greek philosophy,[106] and cannot be substantiated from the Biblical texts"

im so tired of hearing that everything is pagan greek philosophy, these christadelphians say devil doesnt evil exist its also made up from pagan cultures lol.............. those faithful church fathers surely corrupted christianity fast, took them less than 100 years.......... do they have any evidence of this i wonder