Not By Works
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Amen...our loving Father no more throws His beloved children into hell then Daffy Duck and Donald Duck are the 2 witnesses in the book of Revelation.
All works-based religions say this - that our Father throws His children into hell. They do not know Him nor so they know the gospel of the grace of God in Christ yet.
- but they will. The Lord is showing His people the true gospel and it is setting people free - free to love Him and others. Free to walk free of all sin - and yes this includes malice and the slandering of others in the body of Christ that some pastors and us other Christians do.
This is why I don't like labels. If Calvin believed the sky is red then would I be accused of also believing this? Would I be associated with everything he believes, by wrongful assumption? In the same way, if I agree with what Dcon says on something, would that then make me a Dcon-ist? 
Honestly did not know anything about Calvin until a thread I read on here. I don't follow men and their views. But if I believe there will be a rapture does that make me a follower of Darby, just because he believed the same thing? I've been called a follower of him before, but I still don't know what he actually believes. I don't research these men and their beliefs, because I'm a follower of Jesus. These men were not crucified for me. As the scriptures say... 1 Cor 1:10-17.
I just read the scriptures, I don't just copy and paste what these men believe.
You make assumptions about what I believe. When did I ever say that God plays people like chess pieces and selects those He wants to throw into hell? As the scriptures say "whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life" (John 3:16) and that "the Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9).
The problem arises when one doesn't acknowledge that those who have been born of the Spirit are changed and don't then become atheists that reject God. Scripture makes clear that "many will come out from among us and they were not of us, otherwise they would've stayed with us" (1 John 2). Only those who have had that inner change will endure. Sure, some believers might drift into the world/backslide, but God calls them back. I'm actually a prodigal (daughter), and He brought me back in a dramatic way. Wasn't pleasant either. I plan on sharing it in a blog post soon... but I can tell you that even during my backsliding I never stopped believing. I often had people approach me asking me if I were a christian. A colleague even back then could see by my nature that I was a believer and he just knew I was his spiritual sister.
How can you say that eternal security is demonic? You call a promise of God demonic? That's really worrying that you believe this. When I was saved at 11 years old I instantly had that assurance, I just knew I had eternal life. Didn't read views of men back then.
I can tell you're very passionate about scripture and what you believe. Also that you're in beautiful Italy and choosing to share on the forums here rather than be on the beach too. I have great memories from Firenze and remember staying at the hotel "Sant' Anna in Camprena" which used to be a monastery. It's near Pienza, in the province of Siena. A beautiful part of Italy and hope to get back there someday. I have so many memories there.... and I love Italian wine, particularly Valpolicella wine, which comes from the Veneto area.
It's a shame there is division on so many things, particularly God's promises. That scripture I shared was God's word, not mine, I just highlighted words He used, to make the message clear.
I wonder if you're catholic because you asked a question MANY pages back (lol) which is a very common question I've only ever heard asked by two particular groups of people..... universalists and catholics. And clearly you're not universalist from what I've read in your posts. Or maybe you used to be Catholic and now are part of a church that has embraced catholic teachings, so you're not completely rid of all of their teachings.
Can you share your born again experience?... how you believe a person is born again.
Thanks Fran
Honestly did not know anything about Calvin until a thread I read on here. I don't follow men and their views. But if I believe there will be a rapture does that make me a follower of Darby, just because he believed the same thing? I've been called a follower of him before, but I still don't know what he actually believes. I don't research these men and their beliefs, because I'm a follower of Jesus. These men were not crucified for me. As the scriptures say... 1 Cor 1:10-17.
I just read the scriptures, I don't just copy and paste what these men believe.
You make assumptions about what I believe. When did I ever say that God plays people like chess pieces and selects those He wants to throw into hell? As the scriptures say "whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life" (John 3:16) and that "the Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9).
The problem arises when one doesn't acknowledge that those who have been born of the Spirit are changed and don't then become atheists that reject God. Scripture makes clear that "many will come out from among us and they were not of us, otherwise they would've stayed with us" (1 John 2). Only those who have had that inner change will endure. Sure, some believers might drift into the world/backslide, but God calls them back. I'm actually a prodigal (daughter), and He brought me back in a dramatic way. Wasn't pleasant either. I plan on sharing it in a blog post soon
... but I can tell you that even during my backsliding I never stopped believing. I often had people approach me asking me if I were a christian. A colleague even back then could see by my nature that I was a believer and he just knew I was his spiritual sister.How can you say that eternal security is demonic? You call a promise of God demonic?
That's really worrying that you believe this. When I was saved at 11 years old I instantly had that assurance, I just knew I had eternal life. Didn't read views of men back then.I can tell you're very passionate about scripture and what you believe. Also that you're in beautiful Italy and choosing to share on the forums here rather than be on the beach too. I have great memories from Firenze and remember staying at the hotel "Sant' Anna in Camprena" which used to be a monastery. It's near Pienza, in the province of Siena. A beautiful part of Italy and hope to get back there someday. I have so many memories there
.... and I love Italian wine, particularly Valpolicella wine, which comes from the Veneto area.It's a shame there is division on so many things, particularly God's promises. That scripture I shared was God's word, not mine, I just highlighted words He used, to make the message clear.
I wonder if you're catholic because you asked a question MANY pages back (lol
) which is a very common question I've only ever heard asked by two particular groups of people..... universalists and catholics. And clearly you're not universalist from what I've read in your posts. Or maybe you used to be Catholic and now are part of a church that has embraced catholic teachings, so you're not completely rid of all of their teachings.Can you share your born again experience?... how you believe a person is born again.
Thanks Fran
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A
She did Katy.,,pages ago, you should search for and read it.
She grew up Catholic, but has had a born again experience and attends a Wesleyan church?
She seems to be on a crusade against "easy believism" and Calvinist currently...
Maybe when those glasses get taken off, folks can have a decent conversation.
She grew up Catholic, but has had a born again experience and attends a Wesleyan church?
She seems to be on a crusade against "easy believism" and Calvinist currently...
Maybe when those glasses get taken off, folks can have a decent conversation.
Not sure how you overlooked my post.
There's no disagreement there... those WHO ARE saved WILL continually practice righteousness (ongoing), which is the evidence of their salvation. Not that they do this as a necessary requirement TO BE saved.
The inner change leads naturally to an outward change.
I recall the famous woes, addressing the pharisees. A person's outward motives may keep the outside clean, while inwardly they are actually described as filthy. Unfortunately a lot of people go by appearances. Even satan transforms himself into an angel of light, as do his ministers, transforming themselves into ministers of righteousness (holy outward appearance) (2 Cor 11:13-15)
Matthew 23:25-26: “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also"
There's no disagreement there... those WHO ARE saved WILL continually practice righteousness (ongoing), which is the evidence of their salvation. Not that they do this as a necessary requirement TO BE saved.
The inner change leads naturally to an outward change.
I recall the famous woes, addressing the pharisees. A person's outward motives may keep the outside clean, while inwardly they are actually described as filthy. Unfortunately a lot of people go by appearances. Even satan transforms himself into an angel of light, as do his ministers, transforming themselves into ministers of righteousness (holy outward appearance) (2 Cor 11:13-15)
Matthew 23:25-26: “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also"
Hi Meggido,
I'm sorry I'm too busy right now to spend time on this thread.
It's a thread where those reading along can learn much.
The above is very good. I especially like that you posted Romans 8:2.
Romans 8:2 New International Version (NIV)
2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you[a] free from the law of sin and death.
(the Law is still present, the method by which it is kept has been changed)
I'd just like to make sure that those who may not be familiar with the New Covenant understand that every O.T. covenant was made between God and Israel. Most were non-conditional, only two were conditional: The Edenic and the Mosaic Covenants.
The New Covenant is not conditional, however, one MUST BE IN IT to be a part of it.
It will be for ALL nations, but it was made between God and Israel, as you stated.
The big diffrence between the Old or Mosaic Covenant and the New:
1. An internal spiritual transformation with the new possibility of obedience. OBEDIENCE. Exactly what Jesus preached.
John 14:15 (and many more) Jesus DID NOT preach that ONLY belief in Him was necessary for salvation.
2. Sins will be forgiven and forgotten FOR THOSE IN COVENANT.
Hebrews 10:16-17
God does not say that the Laws are done way with. He says instead:
this is the covenant I willl make...
i will put my laws upon their heart...
and upon their mind I will write them...
It is USELESS to keep repeating that we are not continued to be saved by works.
Hebrews 9:14 tells us that Christ will cleanse our conscience from DEAD WORKS to serve the living God.
This goes to Romans 12:1 we are to offer ourselves A LIVING SACRIFICE.
and James 2:17,20
I'm sorry I'm too busy right now to spend time on this thread.
It's a thread where those reading along can learn much.
The above is very good. I especially like that you posted Romans 8:2.
Romans 8:2 New International Version (NIV)
2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you[a] free from the law of sin and death.
(the Law is still present, the method by which it is kept has been changed)
I'd just like to make sure that those who may not be familiar with the New Covenant understand that every O.T. covenant was made between God and Israel. Most were non-conditional, only two were conditional: The Edenic and the Mosaic Covenants.
The New Covenant is not conditional, however, one MUST BE IN IT to be a part of it.
It will be for ALL nations, but it was made between God and Israel, as you stated.
The big diffrence between the Old or Mosaic Covenant and the New:
1. An internal spiritual transformation with the new possibility of obedience. OBEDIENCE. Exactly what Jesus preached.
John 14:15 (and many more) Jesus DID NOT preach that ONLY belief in Him was necessary for salvation.
2. Sins will be forgiven and forgotten FOR THOSE IN COVENANT.
Hebrews 10:16-17
God does not say that the Laws are done way with. He says instead:
this is the covenant I willl make...
i will put my laws upon their heart...
and upon their mind I will write them...
It is USELESS to keep repeating that we are not continued to be saved by works.
Hebrews 9:14 tells us that Christ will cleanse our conscience from DEAD WORKS to serve the living God.
This goes to Romans 12:1 we are to offer ourselves A LIVING SACRIFICE.
and James 2:17,20
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I'd like to repeat AGAIN Grace,
As I read thru this thread (rather quickly, unfortunately) I have found that it is YOUR SIDE, the side that believes salvation cannot be lost, that CONTINUALLY speaks about HELL.
I've found that MY SIDE, the side that believes you CAN lose salvation (as is biblically correct) that NEVER speaks about HELL.
WHY do you suppose that is? It seems like it should be the other way around !!
Maybe your side is so worried about not being able to remain in the Kingdom of God that you had to invent this nonsense about never losing salvation so you could live life how you want to and still go to heaven?
You say this is not so.... But I see the evidence.
MY SIDE, OTOH, is so sure that we're in God's hands and are living in His Kingdom that we ARE NOT WORRIED about losing the salvation we know we CAN lose.
I find this entertaining....
As I read thru this thread (rather quickly, unfortunately) I have found that it is YOUR SIDE, the side that believes salvation cannot be lost, that CONTINUALLY speaks about HELL.
I've found that MY SIDE, the side that believes you CAN lose salvation (as is biblically correct) that NEVER speaks about HELL.
WHY do you suppose that is? It seems like it should be the other way around !!
Maybe your side is so worried about not being able to remain in the Kingdom of God that you had to invent this nonsense about never losing salvation so you could live life how you want to and still go to heaven?
You say this is not so.... But I see the evidence.
MY SIDE, OTOH, is so sure that we're in God's hands and are living in His Kingdom that we ARE NOT WORRIED about losing the salvation we know we CAN lose.
I find this entertaining....
Something struck me.
If normal life in ones gospel, living like the world is acceptable, and there is no alternative
to be set free from, the thing you fear most is Hell.
So you come to faith, to not be judged, to not be a legalist who has to obey the rules
or else you are thrown into Hell.
So for them the point of difference is ultimate destinations, and their continual reassurance
is not victory through the Holy Spirit or overcoming sin, but not going to Hell.
This corresponds to the real gospel which is about evil deeds driven by the desire of the flesh
against salvation driven by the Spirit giving fruit to righteousness.
So our focus is living as lights in a dark world, testifying through love to the light within and
the victory this has brought to our daily existance, not being bound to the passions of this
world but to the deeds of righteousness.
Hell is just for us the place of judgement as the final destination of sinners, but our
focus is in the here and now, and just learning to walk in love.
I have noticed things are never quite what they seem, and in our conversations though
we appear superficially to be the same, for many this is a different faith and life experience.
If normal life in ones gospel, living like the world is acceptable, and there is no alternative
to be set free from, the thing you fear most is Hell.
So you come to faith, to not be judged, to not be a legalist who has to obey the rules
or else you are thrown into Hell.
So for them the point of difference is ultimate destinations, and their continual reassurance
is not victory through the Holy Spirit or overcoming sin, but not going to Hell.
This corresponds to the real gospel which is about evil deeds driven by the desire of the flesh
against salvation driven by the Spirit giving fruit to righteousness.
So our focus is living as lights in a dark world, testifying through love to the light within and
the victory this has brought to our daily existance, not being bound to the passions of this
world but to the deeds of righteousness.
Hell is just for us the place of judgement as the final destination of sinners, but our
focus is in the here and now, and just learning to walk in love.
I have noticed things are never quite what they seem, and in our conversations though
we appear superficially to be the same, for many this is a different faith and life experience.
Good points PJ.
I'm sure everyone has noticed that neither I, nor those who agree with scripture, do NOT worry about hell all the time.
We're too busy loving Jesus, being in the Kingdom He spoke of all the time, and being a light unto the world.
Although we speak of following the Law Jesus left us with, we do not Always speak about it, as the other side accuses us of.
It is only that we try to adjust their belief that it is not NECESSARY to follow the Law that it is even spoken of at all.
Since "they" never reply to my question as to why hell is Always mentioned by "them", I suppose that your explanation is as good as any.
I like Philippians 4:8.
I ike trusting in Jesus and knowing that I live in His Kingdom.
If Others wish to call me a legalist, so be it. I suppose they don't understand the difference between being UNDER THE LAW and being UNDER GRACE. I suppose to them being UNDER GRACE means one could sin and not worry about it.
The difference is easy to understand if one wishes to understand it.
We've explaind it many times but it goes in one ear and out the other because it does not fit into "their" doctrine.
Which is a heretical doctrine.
HERETICAL
Pronunciation (US):
• HERETICAL (adjective)
The adjective HERETICAL has 1 sense:
1. characterized by departure from accepted beliefs or standards
Familiarity information: HERETICAL used as an adjective is very rare.
Dictionary entry details
• HERETICAL (adjective)
Sense 1 heretical Meaning:
Characterized by departure from accepted beliefs or standards
Synonyms:
dissident; heretical; heterodox
This is indeed a heretical belief because it did not exist till very recently.
The Church right after Jesus' Death, did NOT believe in eternal security.
Are we to believe THEM, or the MODERN false Teachers?
I'm sure everyone has noticed that neither I, nor those who agree with scripture, do NOT worry about hell all the time.
We're too busy loving Jesus, being in the Kingdom He spoke of all the time, and being a light unto the world.
Although we speak of following the Law Jesus left us with, we do not Always speak about it, as the other side accuses us of.
It is only that we try to adjust their belief that it is not NECESSARY to follow the Law that it is even spoken of at all.
Since "they" never reply to my question as to why hell is Always mentioned by "them", I suppose that your explanation is as good as any.
I like Philippians 4:8.
I ike trusting in Jesus and knowing that I live in His Kingdom.
If Others wish to call me a legalist, so be it. I suppose they don't understand the difference between being UNDER THE LAW and being UNDER GRACE. I suppose to them being UNDER GRACE means one could sin and not worry about it.
The difference is easy to understand if one wishes to understand it.
We've explaind it many times but it goes in one ear and out the other because it does not fit into "their" doctrine.
Which is a heretical doctrine.
HERETICAL
Pronunciation (US):
• HERETICAL (adjective)
The adjective HERETICAL has 1 sense:
1. characterized by departure from accepted beliefs or standards
Familiarity information: HERETICAL used as an adjective is very rare.
Dictionary entry details
• HERETICAL (adjective)
Sense 1 heretical Meaning:
Characterized by departure from accepted beliefs or standards
Synonyms:
dissident; heretical; heterodox
This is indeed a heretical belief because it did not exist till very recently.
The Church right after Jesus' Death, did NOT believe in eternal security.
Are we to believe THEM, or the MODERN false Teachers?
ONCE AGAIN, FOR THOSE INTERESTED.
ignatius personally knew John the Apostle.
Ignatius, A.D. 110
Do not err, my brothers. Those that corrupt families shall not inherit the kingdom of God. If, then, those who do this in regard to the flesh have suffered death, how much more shall this be the case with anyone who corrupts the faith of God, for which Jesus Christ was crucified, by wicked doctrine? Such a person, becoming defiled, shall go away into everlasting fire and so shall everyone that listens to him. (Letter to the Ephesians 16)
Pray also for me, for I need your love along with the mercy of God so that I may be worthy of the duty for which I am destined and so that I will not be found reprobate. (Letter to the Trallians 12)
Pseudo-Barnabas, A.D. 120 - 130
We take earnest heed in these last days, for the whole time of your faith will profit you nothing unless now, in this wicked time, we also withstand coming sources of danger, as befits the sons of God. (Letter of Barnabas 4)
Each person will receive as he has done. If he is righteous, his righteousness will precede him. If he is wicked, the reward of wickedness is before him. Take heed, lest resting at our ease as those who are the called ones, we should fall asleep in our sins, and the wicked prince should acquire power over us and thrust us away from the kingdom of the Lord. Consider this all the more, brothers, when you reflect and see that after such great signs and wonders were done in Israel, they were abandoned. Let us beware, lest we be found as it is written, "Many are called, but few are chosen" [Matt. 22:14]. (Letter of Barnabas 4)
Pseudo-Clement, A.D. 100 - 150
Let us, then, not only call him Lord, for that will not save us. For he says, "Not every one that says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall be saved, but he that does righteousness." Therefore, brothers, let us confess him by our works, by loving one another, by not committing adultery, speaking evil of one another, or cherishing envy; but being continent, compassionate, and good. … By such works let us confess him, and not by those that are of an opposite kind. It is not fitting that we should fear men, but rather God. For this reason, if we should do such wicked things, the Lord has said, "Even if you were gathered together to me, into my very bosom, yet if you were not to keep my commandments, I would cast you off and say to you, 'Depart from me. I do not know where you are from, you workers of iniquity.'" (2 Clement 4)
Let us, then, repent with our whole heart, that none of us may perish needlessly. For if we have commands and [if we] engage in withdrawing from idols and instructing others, then how much more should we not perish because we already know God.
Let us therefore help one another and lift up the weak in what is good so that all of us may be saved, convert, and admonish one another.
Let us not only seem to believe and pay attention when we are admonished by the elders, but let us also remember the commandments of the Lord when we return home. Let us not be allured away by worldly lusts, but let us draw near to one another very often in order to try to make progress in the Lord's commands. In this way, when we all have the same mind, we will be gathered together for life, for the Lord said, "I come to gather all nations and languages."
This refers to the day of his appearing, when he will come and redeem us—each one according to his works. The unbelievers will see his glory and might, and when they see the empire of the world in Jesus, they will be surprised. They will say, "Woe to us, because you were, and we did not know you, did not believe, and did not obey the elders who clearly explain our salvation."
"Their worm shall not die, nor shall their fire be quenched, and they shall be a spectacle to all flesh" (Is. 66:24).
He speaks of the great day of judgment, when they shall see those among us who were guilty of ungodliness and erred in their estimate of the commands of Jesus Christ.
The righteous will have succeeded both in enduring the trials and hating the indulgences of the soul. They will give glory to God when they witness how those who have swerved and denied Jesus by words or deeds are punished with grievous torments in unquenchable fire. They will give glory to their God and say, "There will be hope for him who has served God with his whole heart." (Second Clement 17)
Justin, c. A.D. 155
If they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God, and the Scripture foretells that they shall be blessed, saying, "Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin" [Ps. 32:2]. That is, he repents of his sins so that he may receive remission of them from God. It is not as you deceive yourselves, along with others who resemble you in this, and say that even though they are sinners, but know God, the Lord will not imput sin to them. We have as proof of this the one fall of David, which happened because of his boasting, which was forgiven when he mourned and wept in the way it is written. If even to such a man no remission was granted before repentance and only when this great king, anointed one, and prophet mourned and conducted himself as it is written, then how can the impure and utterly abandoned, if they do not weep, do not mourn, and do not repent, entertain the hope that the Lord will not impute sin to them? (Dialogue with Trypho 141)
Hermas, c. A.D. 160
"He that does not know God," [the angel of repentance] answered, "and practices evil, receives a certain chastisement for his wickedness, but he that has known God ought not to do evil anymore but to do good. If, accordingly, when he ought to do good, he does evil, does he not appear to do greater evil than the one who does not know God? For this reason, those who have not known God and do evil are condemned to death, but those who have known God and have seen his mighty works and still continue in evil shall be chastised doubly and shall die forever. This is the way the Church of God will be purified." (Shepherd of Hermas III:9:8)
Irenaeus, A.D. 183 - 186
We … ought ourselves to fear, lest by chance, after the knowledge of Christ, if we do things displeasing to God, we obtain no further forgiveness of sins, but be shut out from his kingdom. (Against Heresies, IV:27:2)
[Irenaeus quotes 1 Cor. 6:9-10 here about inheriting the kingdom of God.] It was not to those who are outside that he said these things, but to us, lest we should be cast out of the kingdom of God by doing any such thing. He proceeds to say, "And truly such were you, but you are washed, but you are sanctified in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God" [1 Cor. 6:11]. And just as [under the old covenant], those who led vicious lives and led other people astray were condemned and cast out, so also even now the offending eye is plucked out, and the foot and the hand, lest the rest of the body perish in the same way. (Against Heresies, IV:27:4)
Basil, c. A.D. 362
Vain then is the labor of the righteous man, and free from blame is the way of the sinner if a change come to pass, and the former turn from the better to the worse and the latter from the worse to the better. So we hear from Ezekiel ... when he says, "If the righteous man turns away and commits iniquity, I will not remember the righteousness which he did before. In his sin he shall die." And so, too, about the sinner: if he turns away from his wickedness and does what is right, he shall live. (Epistle 42 as numbered by The Ante-Nicene Fathers, published by Eerdmans and Hendrickson.)
ignatius personally knew John the Apostle.
Ignatius, A.D. 110
Do not err, my brothers. Those that corrupt families shall not inherit the kingdom of God. If, then, those who do this in regard to the flesh have suffered death, how much more shall this be the case with anyone who corrupts the faith of God, for which Jesus Christ was crucified, by wicked doctrine? Such a person, becoming defiled, shall go away into everlasting fire and so shall everyone that listens to him. (Letter to the Ephesians 16)
Pray also for me, for I need your love along with the mercy of God so that I may be worthy of the duty for which I am destined and so that I will not be found reprobate. (Letter to the Trallians 12)
Pseudo-Barnabas, A.D. 120 - 130
We take earnest heed in these last days, for the whole time of your faith will profit you nothing unless now, in this wicked time, we also withstand coming sources of danger, as befits the sons of God. (Letter of Barnabas 4)
Each person will receive as he has done. If he is righteous, his righteousness will precede him. If he is wicked, the reward of wickedness is before him. Take heed, lest resting at our ease as those who are the called ones, we should fall asleep in our sins, and the wicked prince should acquire power over us and thrust us away from the kingdom of the Lord. Consider this all the more, brothers, when you reflect and see that after such great signs and wonders were done in Israel, they were abandoned. Let us beware, lest we be found as it is written, "Many are called, but few are chosen" [Matt. 22:14]. (Letter of Barnabas 4)
Pseudo-Clement, A.D. 100 - 150
Let us, then, not only call him Lord, for that will not save us. For he says, "Not every one that says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall be saved, but he that does righteousness." Therefore, brothers, let us confess him by our works, by loving one another, by not committing adultery, speaking evil of one another, or cherishing envy; but being continent, compassionate, and good. … By such works let us confess him, and not by those that are of an opposite kind. It is not fitting that we should fear men, but rather God. For this reason, if we should do such wicked things, the Lord has said, "Even if you were gathered together to me, into my very bosom, yet if you were not to keep my commandments, I would cast you off and say to you, 'Depart from me. I do not know where you are from, you workers of iniquity.'" (2 Clement 4)
Let us, then, repent with our whole heart, that none of us may perish needlessly. For if we have commands and [if we] engage in withdrawing from idols and instructing others, then how much more should we not perish because we already know God.
Let us therefore help one another and lift up the weak in what is good so that all of us may be saved, convert, and admonish one another.
Let us not only seem to believe and pay attention when we are admonished by the elders, but let us also remember the commandments of the Lord when we return home. Let us not be allured away by worldly lusts, but let us draw near to one another very often in order to try to make progress in the Lord's commands. In this way, when we all have the same mind, we will be gathered together for life, for the Lord said, "I come to gather all nations and languages."
This refers to the day of his appearing, when he will come and redeem us—each one according to his works. The unbelievers will see his glory and might, and when they see the empire of the world in Jesus, they will be surprised. They will say, "Woe to us, because you were, and we did not know you, did not believe, and did not obey the elders who clearly explain our salvation."
"Their worm shall not die, nor shall their fire be quenched, and they shall be a spectacle to all flesh" (Is. 66:24).
He speaks of the great day of judgment, when they shall see those among us who were guilty of ungodliness and erred in their estimate of the commands of Jesus Christ.
The righteous will have succeeded both in enduring the trials and hating the indulgences of the soul. They will give glory to God when they witness how those who have swerved and denied Jesus by words or deeds are punished with grievous torments in unquenchable fire. They will give glory to their God and say, "There will be hope for him who has served God with his whole heart." (Second Clement 17)
Justin, c. A.D. 155
If they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God, and the Scripture foretells that they shall be blessed, saying, "Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin" [Ps. 32:2]. That is, he repents of his sins so that he may receive remission of them from God. It is not as you deceive yourselves, along with others who resemble you in this, and say that even though they are sinners, but know God, the Lord will not imput sin to them. We have as proof of this the one fall of David, which happened because of his boasting, which was forgiven when he mourned and wept in the way it is written. If even to such a man no remission was granted before repentance and only when this great king, anointed one, and prophet mourned and conducted himself as it is written, then how can the impure and utterly abandoned, if they do not weep, do not mourn, and do not repent, entertain the hope that the Lord will not impute sin to them? (Dialogue with Trypho 141)
Hermas, c. A.D. 160
"He that does not know God," [the angel of repentance] answered, "and practices evil, receives a certain chastisement for his wickedness, but he that has known God ought not to do evil anymore but to do good. If, accordingly, when he ought to do good, he does evil, does he not appear to do greater evil than the one who does not know God? For this reason, those who have not known God and do evil are condemned to death, but those who have known God and have seen his mighty works and still continue in evil shall be chastised doubly and shall die forever. This is the way the Church of God will be purified." (Shepherd of Hermas III:9:8)
Irenaeus, A.D. 183 - 186
We … ought ourselves to fear, lest by chance, after the knowledge of Christ, if we do things displeasing to God, we obtain no further forgiveness of sins, but be shut out from his kingdom. (Against Heresies, IV:27:2)
[Irenaeus quotes 1 Cor. 6:9-10 here about inheriting the kingdom of God.] It was not to those who are outside that he said these things, but to us, lest we should be cast out of the kingdom of God by doing any such thing. He proceeds to say, "And truly such were you, but you are washed, but you are sanctified in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God" [1 Cor. 6:11]. And just as [under the old covenant], those who led vicious lives and led other people astray were condemned and cast out, so also even now the offending eye is plucked out, and the foot and the hand, lest the rest of the body perish in the same way. (Against Heresies, IV:27:4)
Basil, c. A.D. 362
Vain then is the labor of the righteous man, and free from blame is the way of the sinner if a change come to pass, and the former turn from the better to the worse and the latter from the worse to the better. So we hear from Ezekiel ... when he says, "If the righteous man turns away and commits iniquity, I will not remember the righteousness which he did before. In his sin he shall die." And so, too, about the sinner: if he turns away from his wickedness and does what is right, he shall live. (Epistle 42 as numbered by The Ante-Nicene Fathers, published by Eerdmans and Hendrickson.)
The reason why we say that Fran - is because we are being honest and taking the religion that say that true Christians that are born from above lose salvation and we come to the end of this false religion - and it is our loving Father throwing His beloved children in hell.
Where do God's children go then - if they don't meet all the "requirements" of this false doctrine - is the a purgatory of some sort like in the Catholic religion?
That is what is really being said - if people would be even 1/2 honest.
This is without a doubt the worst ungodly false doctrine that was ever put into the un-renewed mind of the natural man by our enemy. It has caused more harm to the body of Christ and keep us being spiritual babies and has created this works-based - works-righteousness false doctrine that nullifies the very grace of God that is needed for us to walk in this world by the life of Christ in us manifesting His fruit.
Jesus is not a liar - He said that the Holy Spirit will be in you forever. John 14:16 - the false doctrine says - no, the Spirit leaves you.
You are free to believe whatever you want but people will stand against this false doctrine of our loving Father throwing His beloved children that the Lord Jesus Christ bought with His blood but sends them into hell - which is exactly what this false doctrine of people losing salvation in Christ is really saying.
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What I find interesting is future sin forgiven and eternal security.
Both these positions lead on to licentiousness simply because the believer is taken
away from the goal of love and that which hinders, sin, and puts their focus on
something else.
But sin delights in darkness, is not being exposed and sin is working out ways of
compromise being downplayed and thought of as irrelevant.
Now anybody who creates an alternative set of ideas, needs to turn the way of thinking
around. What is their greatest weakness they will respond as their main attack.
So though they walk in sin, it is a badge of honour, ie honesty, but it is their downfall.
Sin is brutal, destructive and leads to death. There is no point of compromise, and
even pagans hide from its implications. The most immoral, who have multiple partners
still cling to the notion they love people really and it is just desire and craving and their
wife is their true love. It is this story one tells oneself, I am a good person despite the
evil I do, I only do it because I have to, I am really innocent.
But talk about real sin. Sleeping around. Stealing from others, abusing others with hatred
and bitterness in ones heart, coveting the possessions of others, dishonouring ones parents,
taking the Lords name in vain, telling lies about others, these are just ignored.
People get upset, not because it is not true, but because they do not want to walk in the
light. They invent excuses and put sin into a word, sin, and then distance themselves from it.
Jesus dealt with that so we do not have to confront our hypocracy or failure. This is not the
gospel but heresy and apostacy.
Both these positions lead on to licentiousness simply because the believer is taken
away from the goal of love and that which hinders, sin, and puts their focus on
something else.
But sin delights in darkness, is not being exposed and sin is working out ways of
compromise being downplayed and thought of as irrelevant.
Now anybody who creates an alternative set of ideas, needs to turn the way of thinking
around. What is their greatest weakness they will respond as their main attack.
So though they walk in sin, it is a badge of honour, ie honesty, but it is their downfall.
Sin is brutal, destructive and leads to death. There is no point of compromise, and
even pagans hide from its implications. The most immoral, who have multiple partners
still cling to the notion they love people really and it is just desire and craving and their
wife is their true love. It is this story one tells oneself, I am a good person despite the
evil I do, I only do it because I have to, I am really innocent.
But talk about real sin. Sleeping around. Stealing from others, abusing others with hatred
and bitterness in ones heart, coveting the possessions of others, dishonouring ones parents,
taking the Lords name in vain, telling lies about others, these are just ignored.
People get upset, not because it is not true, but because they do not want to walk in the
light. They invent excuses and put sin into a word, sin, and then distance themselves from it.
Jesus dealt with that so we do not have to confront our hypocracy or failure. This is not the
gospel but heresy and apostacy.
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Here is the lie. People who walk in sin are not Gods beloved children, but sinners who are
not saved.
Once you compromise faith by saying faith is a sinner who has faith despite how good or
bad their walk is, you have given up everything.
And in this lie, you can say God would never throw His people into hell, because they sin,
no they are forgiven though they have no victory or transformation or reality of the power
of the cross.
And this is why this heresy is just turning the world Christian without the power, because
it is saying live like the world but with faith and you are saved.
Now if you downplay every sin there is, you can make this believable, because everyone knows
people are actually innocent, it is the flesh that enslaves them, and they have zero ability to
resist the passions of the flesh.
In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.
Heb 12:4
Flee the evil desires of youth and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
2 tim 2:22
It is simply lying to say the gospel is not about victory over sin and walking with
a pure heart.
I am staggard, amazed that anyone would believe or see Paul is compromising with
sin, but rather saying live a holy life.
He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace.
2 Tim 1:9
Now these words have no impact on the hearts of those hardened to sin
and without a conscience. It is amazing how lost they are.
not saved.
Once you compromise faith by saying faith is a sinner who has faith despite how good or
bad their walk is, you have given up everything.
And in this lie, you can say God would never throw His people into hell, because they sin,
no they are forgiven though they have no victory or transformation or reality of the power
of the cross.
And this is why this heresy is just turning the world Christian without the power, because
it is saying live like the world but with faith and you are saved.
Now if you downplay every sin there is, you can make this believable, because everyone knows
people are actually innocent, it is the flesh that enslaves them, and they have zero ability to
resist the passions of the flesh.
In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.
Heb 12:4
Flee the evil desires of youth and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
2 tim 2:22
It is simply lying to say the gospel is not about victory over sin and walking with
a pure heart.
I am staggard, amazed that anyone would believe or see Paul is compromising with
sin, but rather saying live a holy life.
He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace.
2 Tim 1:9
Now these words have no impact on the hearts of those hardened to sin
and without a conscience. It is amazing how lost they are.
The sky is blue....
What happens in some people's minds is this:
Someone makes the statement:
"What a beautiful blue sky the Lord gave us today."
Someone else responds back to the above statement:
"What? The sky is not green- everyone knows that the sky is blue - that is a lie, you are lawless and an enemy of Christ, this is heresy, you want to live like the world, ......and other garbage just like this".
When people have this kind of a mindset - it is impossible to have any kind of a rational discussion with them as they continually "see" something else than what is actually said. They then proceed to talk as if this "made-up thought" is real.
There is something wrong in Denmark as the saying goes.
What happens in some people's minds is this:
Someone makes the statement:
"What a beautiful blue sky the Lord gave us today."
Someone else responds back to the above statement:
"What? The sky is not green- everyone knows that the sky is blue - that is a lie, you are lawless and an enemy of Christ, this is heresy, you want to live like the world, ......and other garbage just like this".
When people have this kind of a mindset - it is impossible to have any kind of a rational discussion with them as they continually "see" something else than what is actually said. They then proceed to talk as if this "made-up thought" is real.
There is something wrong in Denmark as the saying goes.
This just gives me another opportunity to preach the gospel of the grace of God in Christ. I realize that the works-righteousness will not believe in it but perhaps the viewers of the thread may be helped.
When we preach the gospel of the grace of Christ and no one says "What?...are you saying we can just go out and sin because of grace and that we have the forgiveness of sins?"
- if no one says that to us when we are preaching the grace of God. Then we have not preached the gospel like Paul did.
The very nature of the gospel leads the carnal mind to think that it means we can sin all we want because of grace and this is also what the natural mind that some Christians live by...which is what they hear when they hear the true gospel being preached which is that our sins are forgiven in Christ because of His blood and that grace believers are saying it's ok to sin all you want now because of grace.
The reality is what is being said is the complete opposite of what those listening with their natural minds think is being said.
We don't need to water down the gospel because it might get mis-understood as it takes away the full strength of the completed and awesome work that our Lord Jesus Christ did for all of us.
The answer to shall we sin so that grace may abound is in Romans chapters 6 and 7.
When we preach the gospel of the grace of Christ and no one says "What?...are you saying we can just go out and sin because of grace and that we have the forgiveness of sins?"
- if no one says that to us when we are preaching the grace of God. Then we have not preached the gospel like Paul did.
The very nature of the gospel leads the carnal mind to think that it means we can sin all we want because of grace and this is also what the natural mind that some Christians live by...which is what they hear when they hear the true gospel being preached which is that our sins are forgiven in Christ because of His blood and that grace believers are saying it's ok to sin all you want now because of grace.
The reality is what is being said is the complete opposite of what those listening with their natural minds think is being said.
We don't need to water down the gospel because it might get mis-understood as it takes away the full strength of the completed and awesome work that our Lord Jesus Christ did for all of us.
The answer to shall we sin so that grace may abound is in Romans chapters 6 and 7.