Not By Works

[PHart]

Here is a simple answer:

If your foundation is not Christ Jesus, then no amount of works can "prove" your salvation.

If you have a saving faith in Jesus, then it is not good works that "prove" that you are saved but THE HOLY SPIRIT seal and chastening and transforming influence in your life that will show THE WORLD that you are saved.

GOD DOES NOT NEED PROOF, He knows who are His.

Don't you see the duplicity in your own words?
What do you think the Holy Spirit and transforming influence looks like in a person if not in good deeds????

"16“Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 5:16 NASB)

 

[Zmouth]

Zmouth,

Am I understanding your post??????????????

Apparently not

Are you asking Dcon to explain salvation to you?????????????????

0 Pleaaase.....I already have a teacher.

 

[FranC]

I see what you are saying but I don't believe you really understand folks position. Especially if you believe anyone says that a dead faith will save.

I believe it comes down to what exactly is a saving faith?

I don't believe works are needed to save. I also do not believe fruit of the spirit is the same as works of righteousness. Fruit is inner change that results in outward behavior change and actions. I agree everyone should have these if they truly walk with the Holy spirit. To what degree depends on how mature each person is in Christ.

However works are different. They are dependent on the individual spiritual gifts God has given each person. They are our God given ministry and place in the Body of Christ.


Everyone who has a saving faith in Christ will have life changing things happening in their heart and mind. However it takes a level of maturity before most people are given a ministry within the Body.

Sadly most don't even drink their milk much less learn to eat meat.

There seems to be a problem with understanding what works are.

Works are NOT only ministry within the Church.
How did you ever learn this???

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yeah, I know. Funny isn't it.
Paragraph after paragraph of Christians defending the case for dead faith. The dead faith that James says won't save, yet is being so vehemently defended here. But I know that is where the church is at in this time of human history. We've got it in our heads that we don't have to do anything or <gasp!> we'd be guilty of trying to earn our own salvation. We got a lot of people thinking God is going to heap praise on them when they give Christ back his One Talent when he returns because God is just so loving and gracious that way! I can hear their voices already...."let me in, let me in!"

wow, who is defending dead faith? Name one person, and show us the post where they defended it! By showing how anyone said a child of God will never do works.

 

[Ariel82]

Yeah, I know. Funny isn't it.
Paragraph after paragraph of Christians defending the case for dead faith. The dead faith that James says won't save, yet is being so vehemently defended here. But I know that is where the church is at in this time of human history. We've got it in our heads that we don't have to do anything or <gasp!> we'd be guilty of trying to earn our own salvation. We got a lot of people thinking God is going to heap praise on them when they give Christ back his One Talent when he returns because God is just so loving and gracious that way! I can hear their voices already...."let me in, let me in!"

That is a lie and not at all what I believe as I have stated, over and over.

Does it feel good to exalt yourself and put others down by lying about what is being said?

Didn't you make the statement that folks only hear what has been indoctrinated into them?

Are you blind than to your own log you accuse others of doing what you just did yourself?

I have stated over and over that the Holy spirit will change lives.

I don't believe in the dead faith of demons will save.,,mental accent is not enough. Neither is the heathen faith of works salvation or faith in the old covenant.

A saving faith is in Jesus and His finished work on the cross for the remission of sins and His resurrection and ascension to Heaven.


Only when someone has a saving faith and confesses with their mouth this saving faith is the Holy Spirit sent to seal a person unto salvation. Only then are they truly saved. The Holy spirit with chasren and teach each of God's born again children .

..If this doesn't happen, then they may not have a saving faith in Jesus and have been deceived by false gospels and lies of this world that lead them away from God and His light instead of towards it,

 

[FranC]

FranC.,,

You obviously misread my post and not surprising since it wasn't directed towards you.

Perhaps you should just read along for a while?

Then maybe folks can have a conversation without folks falsely representing what is being said?



He is accusing the church as teaching that dead works saved..

.I stated that no one teaches this and tried to explain what is being said and taught

I did not as falsely implied accuse him of anything.
.We actually agree on quite a bit and are discussing what we don't agree about.

.I don't know if it's wording or concept or doctrine at this point,

If you use the quote feature, it'll be easier for me to understand you.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Don't you see the duplicity in your own words?
What do you think the Holy Spirit and transforming influence looks like in a person if not in good deeds????

"16“Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 5:16 NASB)

if a person who sins has never seen God, and a person who is born of God can not live in sin, 1 john

then gen what is your point of a person who is saved not doing good works? Which would be living in sin? (Whoever knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That is a lie and not at all what I believe as I have stated, over and over.

Does it feel good to exalt yourself and put others down by lying about what is being said?

Didn't you make the statement that folks only hear what has been indoctrinated into them?

Are you blind than to your own log you accuse others of doing what you just did yourself?

I have stated over and over that the Holy spirit will change lives.

I don't believe in the dead faith of demons will save.,,mental accent is not enough. Neither is the heathen faith of works salvation or faith in the old covenant.

A saving faith is in Jesus and His finished work on the cross for the remission of sins and His resurrection and ascension to Heaven.


Only when someone has a saving faith and confesses with their mouth this saving faith is the Holy Spirit sent to seal a person unto salvation. Only then are they truly saved. The Holy spirit with chasren and teach each of God's born again children .

..If this doesn't happen, then they may not have a saving faith in Jesus and have been deceived by false gospels and lies of this world that lead them away from God and His light instead of towards it,

i wonder if it makes them feel better about themselves, when they come up with these lies about others, and tell each other those lies like it is truth?

 

[Ariel82]

Don't you see the duplicity in your own words?
What do you think the Holy Spirit and transforming influence looks like in a person if not in good deeds????

"16“Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 5:16 NASB)

I have already stated to you that good fruit is different than good works but apparently you don't bother to listen.

Good fruit is the inward change GOD WORKS within each heart.

Good works is done when we are mature and know our spiritual gifts and ministry for building up the Body of Christ, which may take years to manifest but doesn't mean folks aren't saved because they are babes in Christ.

Do you not see the false judgement in you reply?

I am not be duplicitous, just because you don't understand what I am saying.

 

[Zmouth]

so if whoever sin has never seen god or known him 1john 3: 6

what does that tell us about thepose who are adopted children of a god who have seen him and know him?

Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers? Mal 2:10

 

[Grace777x70]

wow, who is defending dead faith? Name one person, and show us the post where they defended it! By showing how anyone said a child of God will never do works.

Amen...what works-based mindsets are really saying is that true Christians can lose their salvation and that their loving Father sends His beloved children to hell. There is "no purgatory" for the after-life.

Either we are one forever with Christ or we do not have Christ in us. Jesus said that the Holy Spirit will be in us forever - but they say "NO, He will cast you aside because you didn't do all these good works."

Jesus is NOT a liar. I chose to believe in Him for life and living and He is our Savior. We don't save ourselves.

This going back and forth with them is a complete waste of time. The same things are being said page after page. We can leave it all in the hands of the Holy Spirit to reveal Christ to all of us.

 

[Stephen63]

Originally Posted bydcontroversal

My brother had some one time straight from Turkey....smelled just like pee until brewed....I NEVER drank any....said h--- no when he asked if I wanted some....HAHAHA NOT ME.....

Just curious..... you did say you were a former pastor, didn't you?

Maybe you didn't see this..... I was hoping to get an answer.

 

[Ariel82]

If you use the quote feature, it'll be easier for me to understand you.

Pretty sure I did.

Post 14376 I quoted and responded to pHart

However I doubt he has seen it since I didn't get a reply from HIM.

 

[Grace777x70]

Amen...what works-based mindsets are really saying is that true Christians can lose their salvation and that their loving Father sends His beloved children to hell. There is "no purgatory" for the after-life.

Either we are one forever with Christ or we do not have Christ in us. Jesus said that the Holy Spirit will be in us forever - but they say "NO, He will cast you aside because you didn't do all these good works.

Jesus is NOT a liar. I chose to believe in Him for life and living and He is our Savior. We don't save ourselves.

That is the essence of the false doctrine of "saved by works".

It comes in many flavors and colors but it's core belief remains unchanged and it is a direct violation of the gospel of the grace of God in Christ's work on the cross and resurrection. It is always those that think our loving Father throws His beloved children into hell that come up with this doctrine.


All religions - including the religion of Christianity ( as there is a religion like this that tries to mimic the life of Christ ) - are really manifesting that they are eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil which has been set lose in this earth by Adam's transgression.

They are basing their life on what they do or don't do. They are attempting to establish their own righteousness by what they do or don't do. Good works are an example of this.

We see the "descriptions" in the words and actions of Jesus and in the epistles of what the true Christian life looks like when Christ's life and His fruit are being manifested. The religion of Christianity then takes these "descriptions" and tries to "dictate" to the believers the life of Christ or the fruit of the Spirit into being.

In essence they are trying to mimic or duplicate the life and fruit of Christ and at the same time "demanding" that others do the same thing or else they are not saved.

The true Christian life is Christ Himself joined as one spirit with us manifesting His love, His grace, His life in and through us. It is His fruit - without Him we can do nothing.

All works-based - works-righteousness belief systems ( including the religion of Christianity ) have this as their core essence and it really nullifies the true grace of God from operating in our lives like it should.

This is the "why" behind when people say we must do "good works". That is what the fruit brings behind the work-for-salvation mindset and to maintain and create righteousness.

The reality is - as we behold the glory/goodness of the Lord as in a mirror - we are transformed by the Holy Spirit and the life of Christ will manifest itself in the doing of good works as the fruit of being in union with Him. 2 Cor. 3:17-18

We do good works because it is a fruit of being in union with Christ not "to be saved." Christ alone is our Savior.

Preach and teach the love and grace of God in the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ and Christians will have the proper nutrients to walk out what already is within them - which is Christ in us - the hope of glory.

We live by His life in us now - Christ Himself is that tree of life. Notice it is not the "knowledge of the tree of life" ( like it is with the other tree - the knowledge of good and evil ). We live by His life now.

 

[FranC]

One wonders if these words condemn the speaker?

What if they are on the "wrong side"?

What if their gospel is false?

Have they "closed their hearts"?

Are they "impervious to the truth?"




It's a good thing I believe that God can overcome even these lies. God is powerful enough to save anyone.

Salvation is by Faith not works of righteousness,

Ephesians 2
8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.


****

Do you know the difference between being saved FOR good works VERSUS. BY GOOD WORKS?

To be saved the only requirement is Faith which is a gift from God.

To be mature one must learn to walk with the Holy spirit, be chastened and learn our place in the Body of Christ.

You don't seem to be grasping that these people are not talking about SALVATION but what comes AFTER SALVATION.

Dcon and your side say that Works do NOT SAVE or KEEP SAVED.

You're right on the first, THEY DO NOT SAVE
But you're wrong on the second.. THEY DO NOT KEEP SAVED.

YES. They DO KEEP SAVED.

It's difficult for me to understand how you don't see this in scripture.

I posted Titus 2:14
Do you not understand that God demands good works?

You should stop saying that we are saved FOR good works and NOT BY GOOD WORKS, since this is not the argument.

Just simply say that YES, we MUST DO GOOD WORKS if we are saved.

 

[Ariel82]

I see what you are saying but I don't believe you really understand folks position. Especially if you believe anyone says that a dead faith will save.

I believe it comes down to what exactly is a saving faith?

I don't believe works are needed to save. I also do not believe fruit of the spirit is the same as works of righteousness. Fruit is inner change that results in outward behavior change and actions. I agree everyone should have these if they truly walk with the Holy spirit. To what degree depends on how mature each person is in Christ.

However works are different. They are dependent on the individual spiritual gifts God has given each person. They are our God given ministry and place in the Body of Christ.


Everyone who has a saving faith in Christ will have life changing things happening in their heart and mind. However it takes a level of maturity before most people are given a ministry within the Body.

Sadly most don't even drink their milk much less learn to eat meat.

Here is the post I quoted and responded to....

Quote Originally Posted by PHart View Post
Lol, no I'm not the only one who understands James. There are others right here in this thread who understand. But we are definitely in the minority. The church has been overtaken by this severe misunderstanding of Paul's faith vs. works teaching.



That is what I'm saying. What I'm resisting is the church's misguided understanding that it is not necessary to have these works in order to be saved on the day of judgment, that dead faith also saves, which is in complete and utter contradiction to what James said and a contradiction which no one seems to want to explain.


No one is making a legalistic argument for the necessity for works. God is just. He judges according to what you've been given, and your ability to act on it. The thief can't even move his arms or legs, why would God expect him to suddenly have works to accompany his faith???? The problem I see is people using the thief on the cross as an excuse to do nothing with what their arms and legs and mouth can do.....and still think they have a faith that will save them.



It's all summed up in the fruit of the Spirit.


In regard to the fundamental character that God expects people who have faith in him goes, no, it's not different for each person. We're all saved in order to be conformed to the image of Christ. Not anybody's else's image. It's about character. Not legalistic works.


Whatever it is that God expected their saving faith to produce in them at that time is what he will be looking for to confirm the presence of that saving faith. God is just. He does not expect a baby to walk like a man, but only to crawl as a baby would.

I was hopeful that we could have an actual conversation.

However that hope is slowly fading,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You don't seem to be grasping that these people are not talking about SALVATION but what comes AFTER SALVATION.

Dcon and your side say that Works do NOT SAVE or KEEP SAVED.

You're right on the first, THEY DO NOT SAVE
But you're wrong on the second.. THEY DO NOT KEEP SAVED.

YES. They DO KEEP SAVED.

It's difficult for me to understand how you don't see this in scripture.

I posted Titus 2:14
Do you not understand that God demands good works?

You should stop saying that we are saved FOR good works and NOT BY GOOD WORKS, since this is not the argument.

Just simply say that YES, we MUST DO GOOD WORKS if we are saved.

ths is contradictory

we are talking about what happens after salvation

but then declaired that we must work to stado saved, meaning we have never been saved to begin with, it was all just a false promise, no life.

If wks maintain salvation, then they save us period,

gal 3 was written f R this very reason, are you so foolish, having begun in the spirit (faith) are you now being perfected in the flesh (works, or maintaining ones salvation)

 

[Ariel82]

You don't seem to be grasping that these people are not talking about SALVATION but what comes AFTER SALVATION.

Dcon and your side say that Works do NOT SAVE or KEEP SAVED.

You're right on the first, THEY DO NOT SAVE
But you're wrong on the second.. THEY DO NOT KEEP SAVED.

YES. They DO KEEP SAVED.

It's difficult for me to understand how you don't see this in scripture.

I posted Titus 2:14
Do you not understand that God demands good works?

You should stop saying that we are saved FOR good works and NOT BY GOOD WORKS, since this is not the argument.

Just simply say that YES, we MUST DO GOOD WORKS if we are saved.

I will not speak a lie to satisfy you.

We need Jesus to be saved. We need His Holy spirit. We need to learn and walk with Him.

He will bring fruit.

That is all that is needed for salvation. Babes in Christ will have no works but are STILL SAVED.

I will NOT REJECT A CHILD OF GOD BECAUSE THEY CAN'T "prove" they are saved by their good works.

The only "proof" of salvation is the Holy spirit telling them they are born again children of God. They may not be perfect or sinless but the fact their sin troubles their heart is a sign that the Holy spirit is convicting and changing them.

I will give babes milk,

encourage toddlers to walk and develop fruit,

teach teenagers to read scripture, pray and eat meat

and help mature Christians learn what their spiritual gifts are and where in the Body of Christ they can bless others with their God given ministry, aka good works.

I will not tell babes in Christ they are not His Kids because they have no works to "prove it"

 

[gb9]

That is the essence of the false doctrine of "saved by works".

It comes in many flavors and colors but it's core belief remains unchanged and it is a direct violation of the gospel of the grace of God in Christ's work on the cross and resurrection. It is always those that think our loving Father throws His beloved children into hell that come up with this doctrine.


All religions - including the religion of Christianity ( as there is a religion like this that tries to mimic the life of Christ ) - are really manifesting that they are eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil which has been set lose in this earth by Adam's transgression.

They are basing their life on what they do or don't do. They are attempting to establish their own righteousness by what they do or don't do. Good works are an example of this.

We see the "descriptions" in the words and actions of Jesus and in the epistles of what the true Christian life looks like when Christ's life and His fruit are being manifested. The religion of Christianity then takes these "descriptions" and tries to "dictate" to the believers the life of Christ or the fruit of the Spirit into being.

In essence they are trying to mimic or duplicate the life and fruit of Christ and at the same time "demanding" that others do the same thing or else they are not saved.

The true Christian life is Christ Himself joined as one spirit with us manifesting His love, His grace, His life in and through us. It is His fruit - without Him we can do nothing.

All works-based - works-righteousness belief systems ( including the religion of Christianity ) have this as their core essence and it really nullifies the true grace of God from operating in our lives like it should.

This is the "why" behind when people say we must do "good works". That is what the fruit brings behind the work-for-salvation mindset and to maintain and create righteousness.

The reality is - as we behold the glory/goodness of the Lord as in a mirror - we are transformed by the Holy Spirit and the life of Christ will manifest itself in the doing of good works as the fruit of being in union with Him. 2 Cor. 3:17-18

We do good works because it is a fruit of being in union with Christ not "to be saved." Christ alone is our Savior.

Preach and teach the love and grace of God in the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ and Christians will have the proper nutrients to walk out what already is within them - which is Christ in us - the hope of glory.

We live by His life in us now - Christ Himself is that tree of life. Notice it is not the "knowledge of the tree of life" ( like it is with the other tree - the knowledge of good and evil ). We live by His life now.

as irritating as the works-based mindset is to interact with, I think a big part of it comes out of culture, western culture to be specific. many of us were taught by our parents , and them by theirs, and so on, that you do not accept what you do not earn.

most of our jobs, you do the work, then you get paid. this not accepting gifts that we do not deserve, and do the work then get the reward ( pay ) mindset filters into the way many read the Bible. but, while it is ethical , it is not Biblical, as far as salvation goes. salvation is a Gift that cannot be earned.

 

[FranC]

If I ever meet someone that uses that word, I'll always think of you.

Most overused word in this thread. Haha

Katy-follower

Maybe you should call yourself a Dcon-follower.

He seems to have his little Group here.

Dcon -followers.
yeah.