The truth behind the Law

[PerfectlyImperfect]

You are a breath of fresh air!

You're going to be ok. Jesus is God in the Flesh. Have no worries. He will reveal truths to you little by little. Just know you are greatly loved by Him and your brothers and sisters in Christ!

Thank you, that is much appreciated. And I greatly love all my brothers and sisters in Christ, and even the ones not in Christ I love and just want to tell them Jesus is real.

 

[PerfectlyImperfect]

Does a sheep try to be a sheep? Or is it a sheep because it's a sheep?

Once we are born again, we become His children. We don't try to be His children. We ARE His children.

The Holy Spirit will transform you to be and act like His Son. The enemy is the one who will continually accuse you before the Father AND to your self. If we love the Father with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength, and love our neighbor as ourselves, Jesus tells us we follow the Law.

So we need to not be so sin conscious, and focus on who we are, and show people who we are by love.

I'm sorry let me rephrase that. Trying to listen to what God says and do it! And be saved through faith. But absolutely understand what you are saying, thank you for such wonderful insight.

 

[Rainrider]

No I acknowledge Jesus as Jesus, and The Lord as the Lord, however if that is incorrect again I'm sorry that's what I was taught. But if I should acknowledge him as the Lord, I have no problem with that. It's going to take some practice and getting used to though.

May I ask you something? I don't wish to sound condescending, I simply wish a little clarification is all.
The way I understand what your saying here, is that you know Yeshua, (Jesus) is the way to Salvation, and that He is Lord of your life. Yet you also know that HaShem is LORD. Yet you have been taught they are not the same. Am I getting this right?

I really need some sleep my friend, if you would like to take this off an open forum, drop me a line. My door is always open to you, or any one for that matter.

 

[PerfectlyImperfect]

Jesus didn't die for you so that you could to continue to attempt to keep something that the word of God already says we can't keep. He died for you to free you from the curse of the Law. We are under a completely different covenant. We follow Christ. When we sin, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and cleanse us of all unrighteousness. Consider the following:

"What then will we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because their pursuit was not by faith, but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone"

Yes I am aware of that, I really don't even know of these laws at least not yet anyway, because I haven't gotten that far. I strictly go off my faith and believe alone. And let's be honest here when people hear of laws, they tend to break them. But once your shown, it's possible to not break them, then you no longer have any excuses. For example, "A man cannot un-see the truth."

 

[Willie-T]

It seems that I have seen this debate on almost every thread I look at. So I thought it would be nice to see if we can not move that whole debate to one place.

However I would love to see this go as orderly as we can get it. I know that won't be an easy thing to do, so I am going to ask that we please keep this down to one passage at a time. One chapter, is find. However as I have seen, folks seem to think that if enough scripture is placed out at one time, then they think they win. That in my mind is just a way to muddy the water. It also seems to be an attempt to to not answer questions that are meant to make a point. Then that seems to be done when the other party seems to have no real answer.

I am going to do my best to use a translation of the Bible I think we can all agree on. The NKJ. As habit I use the NLB, The old English a bit confusing for me, ( am after all Dyslexic) so I thought we should all stay with the same translation, this seems to be a good compromise.

Also I would like to ask that if you can't stop your from hinting at calling others a liar, please don't post, as that is not the way to show Christ living with in you. This is the ground rules folks, if you can live with them, grate. If not then I ask that every one just stop replying to anyone that they see as braking this simple set of rules.

As for me, I grow wiry of such actions, and as has been seen from other post, I will stop replying, until my question is answered. So I wish to start this off, with just one question. I have made this point my self many times in life. It gets one of 2 reactions.

1 no answer at all.

2 A reply that is so full of scripture, that when you read them all, and ten take time to study it out, you may be a week getting back to answer it.

It is this that has prompted the ground rules I have placed. We all seem to serve HaShem, (if my use of Hebrew is a bit over the top for you, please let me know, I will do best to change it for you). That being said, we should all know that he is nothing if not orderly. Being as we are meant to be like Him,
1Co 11:1 Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.

Lets act so though we are trying to do so. Sorry for the long intro, I just seen no other way to do this.

Now we all know that if we are to bass our side on any one passage, it should be,
Mat 5:17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
Mat 5:18 “For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

I am going to start by asking, how does this passage fit your teachings? I do ask once more that we stay inside this passage, and if one must go outside this book, please make sure any passage you use is with in the context of the passage in question.

I will give my teaching on this to kick off this show.

I understand that this one passage may have been removed from it's true contextual intent for many 100's of years now. So I hope that you will not over look the following. As it seems that the one word fulfill or fulfilled, is the hot part of this passage, do we know what they are, and what the true definition of the Hebrew and Greek words used in the text are? Knowing the true meaning of the words first used, can make a world of difference.
From the Hebrew, we have the word, Strongs number is 4137.
Here we find,
plēroō

1) to make full, to fill up, i.e. to fill to the full

1a) to cause to abound, to furnish or supply liberally

1a1) I abound, I am liberally supplied
In the Hebrew it is
Mowladah
From 3205, brith
Don't get mad at me, I am only giving you what Strongs said. I myself am not real sure the word given in Hebrew is even a true Hebrew word. Should anyone ask, I will find out for sure. For now this is what Strongs has.

Working with this, we can say that Yeshua came to do one of 2 things. If we look at the Hebrew, we can say He came to give a rebirth of the Law, or that He came to give new birth.
From the greek we an say he came to fill, furnish, or supply.
What we can not say, is that He came to destroy, abolish, or do away with. To say so, one would have to remove most of what He said. As He told us, not to think that way, then backed this by telling us that not one jot or tittle would be removed, until it was all fulfilled. Please not that He said all. Not a part, or as much as we see fit. Also keep in mind that we are on earth now, and so it has not been done away with as yet.
That all comes down to one thing. If this passage means what it is telling us, then the Law has not been removed. Placing the burden on any that wish to remove it, to first remove this passage, or it's meaning. As I have opened the door to a debate that seems to have no end, and f the ground roles are followed, any passages out side of this one should show that the law was removed. Once more, please work this one passage at a time. Unlike many people, I do understand that I am human, and can be wrong. I do hope you understand that it will take a lot of work to show me that I am.
Ok folks let keep it clean, follow the rules, and lets have fun.
May HaShem guide this discussion to His end, and not to an end that pleases man. AMEN

I love it! Same old thing..... a list of laws to talk about Law.

 

[PerfectlyImperfect]

May I ask you something? I don't wish to sound condescending, I simply wish a little clarification is all.
The way I understand what your saying here, is that you know Yeshua, (Jesus) is the way to Salvation, and that He is Lord of your life. Yet you also know that HaShem is LORD. Yet you have been taught they are not the same. Am I getting this right?

I really need some sleep my friend, if you would like to take this off an open forum, drop me a line. My door is always open to you, or any one for that matter.

I'm not even quite sure anymore, maybe my memory is foggy. Because, now that I think about it The Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit, are all one. And it appears I'm in serious need of a refresher course. So thank you all for bringing that to my attention.

 

[beta]

There are 1050 Laws in the New testament. 613 in the Old.
When one looks at what is in the OT, they are repeated, hinted at, or refereed to in the NT. I once removed every word from the NT that, repeated, hinted at, or refereed to the OT. I came up with only one passage left. Jesus Wept.
That in fact made sense in my mind, as they only had the OT to teach from. Now I can't speak for any one other than myself. Yet to find that, and understand they had only the OT. If I was to find teaching that went contrary to the only scripture they had to teach from, then I would have to think something was wrong. That would, (as we know) have to my thinking. Can you see why this topic is dear to my heart now?

JESUS wept ! that should cut through stone !

 

[KJV1611]

Why is it that those who believed the account of the 10 couldn't enter the promise land but the ones who believed the accout of the 2 were allowed to enter?

 

[beta]

Okay wait, so I should acknowledge Jesus as Lord. Personally, that's a little confusing to me, as I was taught of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit. But yes, I trust the perfect sacrifice of Jesus' blood. And I also believe me that he rose from death. I literally just watched risen and wanted to cry the whole time. Yes I know it's a movie, but I actually believe in Jesus, and seeing him sit next to and talk to a guy who had literally just killed him days earlier was incredible to me. And because of that and other things as well I will follow Jesus wherever he goes, so to speak...

Can I ask if that means walking with Him 24/7 or only 5 days a week ?

 

[PerfectlyImperfect]

Can I ask if that means walking with Him 24/7 or only 5 days a week ?

It means walking with him day and night, for the rest of my days. Why? Because if I trip and fall he won't come back for me??

 

[miknik5]

Why is it that those who believed the account of the 10 couldn't enter the promise land but the ones who believed the accout of the 2 were allowed to enter?

Could you clarify what you are saying?

Those who believed the account of the 10 (commandments) couldn't enter and those who believed the account of the 2 (commandments) could?

HE also said, with men it is impossible...

HIS WORD does not and never will contradict any part of HIS WORD

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It means walking with him day and night, for the rest of my days. Why? Because if I trip and fall he won't come back for me??

No, Jesus will leave the whole flock to go get one lost sheep.

hs sheep hear his voice and they follow hm

 

[PerfectlyImperfect]

No, Jesus will leave the whole flock to go get one lost sheep.

hs sheep hear his voice and they follow hm

All, I can say to that is Amen!

 

[beta]

Yes but you can cling to him and follow his law, but obviously because I'm human I'm not ever going to be perfect. And I tried to make that clear, sorry if it didn't come across that way.

walking with Jesus 24/7 does not negate keeping the Fathers commandments and by HIS Spirit we learn to do it and walk with Him, they go hand in hand. Jesus was never lawless and He won't accept any who are Mat 7v23.

 

[PerfectlyImperfect]

walking with Jesus 24/7 does not negate keeping the Fathers commandments and by HIS Spirit we learn to do it and walk with Him, they go hand in hand. Jesus was never lawless and He won't accept any who are Mat 7v23.

Technically, that's what I was trying to say, but you said it for me so thanks!

 

[Willie-T]

walking with Jesus 24/7 does not negate keeping the Fathers commandments and by HIS Spirit we learn to do it and walk with Him, they go hand in hand. Jesus was never lawless and He won't accept any who are Mat 7v23.

Technically, that's what I was trying to say, but you said it for me so thanks!

Didn't "The Father's" commandments say to stone one caught in adultery? Did Jesus do that? Are we supposed to?

I think some people may need to get a better grip on "rightly dividing the word"........ or else they might be taking a rebellious son to the edge of town to be killed by the elders.

 

[KJV1611]

Could you clarify what you are saying?

Those who believed the account of the 10 (commandments) couldn't enter and those who believed the account of the 2 (commandments) could?

HE also said, with men it is impossible...

HIS WORD does not and never will contradict any part of HIS WORD

12 spies were sent out, 2 said God can take the land and conquer the enemies but 10 said we can't do it, the enemy is too strong. The point is that the 10 commandments can't take us to the promised land.

 

[miknik5]

Didn't "The Father's" commandments say to stone one caught in adultery? Did Jesus do that? Are we supposed to?

I think some people may need to get a better grip on "rightly dividing the word"........ or else they might be taking a rebellious son to the edge of town to be killed by the elders.

If we claim to be a child of THE LIGHT, don't you think we should learn to discern and be able to make a right judgment between the works of darkness from the works of the KINGDOM of LIGHT in THE SON?

 

[miknik5]

12 spies were sent out, 2 said God can take the land and conquer the enemies but 10 said we can't do it, the enemy is too strong. The point is that the 10 commandments can't take us to the promised land.

Nice response.

 

[Meggido]

You use the word was, however as Paul said it IS to point out our sin, makes a world of difference when looked at from what is said, and what we see, or wish to see.


[/COLOR]
Be that as it may, and knowing that Yeshua is HaShem, then are not His laws the same Laws that are given by HaShem? If not please show me one passage that will show your point in this.



Do you not know that even in OT times the Law did not bring salvation? It was then, and always will be by faith.
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Rom 4:3 For the Scriptures tell us, “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.”

That comes from Gen. 15:6, so we now know that the salvation by works is not a fitting argument for this topic. I understand that you made no claim to that, I just wish to make it clear that the Bible does not, has not, and never willl say that salvation has ever came by the work of mans hand.




If this is right, then please, Give me scripture. I can on the other hand give you many passages that will show my side. Though due to my own rules for this, I will give you just one at this time.

Act 22:3
“I am indeed a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, taught according to the strictness of our fathers' law, and was zealous toward God as you all are today.

I do ask that read this in context please. However for one to say that Paul told us we do not need the Law, would they not first need to remove his words in this passage?




You do not find it sad that what you say of others, they may also say of you?
As for following the Law, or not obeying HaShem. Why not not let the Word speak for it's self.
1Jo 3:4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.


Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

To make the claim you have, "This is an anti-Christ belief" To some may come across as you placing a judgment on them, that is not your to make, please re-frame from this kind of thing moving foreword. It is not only an attempt to degrade the understanding of others, it is not showing a Christ like mind set. Thank you for your understanding on this.
I do wish to say, that had I taken that road and turned that same phrase back on you, I would have scripture to back my teaching. As I am not, there is need to go further. Once more thank you for showing restraint in the use in of phrases like that.

rainrider, you are using Jewish terms in making your case. TO remain intellectually honest in your discussion you should disclose if you are affiliated or associated with:

1) Hebrew Roots Movement
2) PSALM 119 ministries
3) Orthodox Jew
4) Messianic Jew

Are you a born Jew?

If you are affiliated with any of these fellowships or movements and not born Jewish you are a modern day gentile Judiazer and has Paul showed a false teacher.

You need to stop the deception and cease and desist from steering those free in Christ back to the law for their salvation.

I await your reply.