Well of course I agree that we can find that power and money dominates in all denominations.
What means FYI ?
But as this we can find in all denomiations, we should also find the spirituell gifts in all denominations. I really can not believe that if the Holy Spirit there he works different according the denomination doctrine.
Maby you wonder why i alsway come back to the begin of the pentecostal movement. You are right, we can find speaking in tongues in history special till the 6th century. But in those times was also to find a big movement called montanism which was a heretic group, but practiced prophecie and speaking in tongues. Tertullian later joined this group.
But non of the so called churchfathers practised speaking in tongues ore taught it.
Since the reformation time when the bible translations (KJV, Luther and so on) take place, the bible became readable for all people and not only for the RCC priest. If the speaking in tongues was a gift for all times why then the Holy Spirit dont led the reformators to this view and opened while translation their eyes for this. Instead he opend their eyes forthe important things concern faith.
Till the biblical canon was finished in the 4th century, the most churches had not all scripture/bible for to read. Today every single person has the possibility to read the bible.
Imagine a believer in Corinth in the year 54 ore 55 when he received the 1. letter from Paul.
In this time was not written the book of acts (60-62), Romans (56 from corinth), gospel of John (earliest 80)
That means he was not able to create a doctrine which says that there is there a second baptism with the Holy Spirit and as sign for that speaking in tongues. Because forthisto create youmust have more information from the scripture then 1. Cor. gives.
Romans, the letter which content the most information about christian Life in no single sentence mentioned the gift of speaking in tongues. If this gift is realy so important for an believer, then why he did not mentioned it. In spite of that Paul wrote this letter in Corinth?
The doctrine which Parham and Seymore create was never taught before in churchhistory and not in the bible. And before they made this expieriences the gift of healing, prophecie and speaking in tongues were practised in several cults, like Mormons, New apostolic chatholic church, Irvingians.
Today around 117 years gone and many different pentecostal branches were build worldwide- But they all are going back to Parham an Seymore and the events in Azusa Street.
But still exactly this teaching is not found in the apostolic time churches!
And thats why it is not possible to argue alone from the knowledge what the christians in the time of 1. Corinthians had.
Because the explaining from Parham and Seymore why we have the sign gifts today is an different then to the apostolic time. They combined it with an special expierience with the Holy Spirit. And this we find not in the teachings of the NT!
Thats why 1909 in germany the most leading denominatians saw in this movement a Spirit from down. And not the Holy Spirit.
By the way the Lord still doing miracles in this world, but the most time with the purpose to bring non believers to Christ and not for to give christians a handsome life.
This doctrine of speaking in tongues created splitting for christianity since it came up in 1900. I cant see any benefits of it for the body of Christ!
It is not my goal to judge anybody. This is only what I recognize. I am not grew up in a pentecostal church. So maby you think I look only from my point as non pentecostal. But I would say If soembody would consider the word of God and the way how something was raises up and presentet to the world could agree with me.
The Lord is ueseing all who follow him, and thats why he is acting and blessing us in spite of our mistakes. There is non denomination which is 100% right in their doctrine and teachings!
What means FYI ?
But as this we can find in all denomiations, we should also find the spirituell gifts in all denominations. I really can not believe that if the Holy Spirit there he works different according the denomination doctrine.
Maby you wonder why i alsway come back to the begin of the pentecostal movement. You are right, we can find speaking in tongues in history special till the 6th century. But in those times was also to find a big movement called montanism which was a heretic group, but practiced prophecie and speaking in tongues. Tertullian later joined this group.
But non of the so called churchfathers practised speaking in tongues ore taught it.
Since the reformation time when the bible translations (KJV, Luther and so on) take place, the bible became readable for all people and not only for the RCC priest. If the speaking in tongues was a gift for all times why then the Holy Spirit dont led the reformators to this view and opened while translation their eyes for this. Instead he opend their eyes forthe important things concern faith.
Till the biblical canon was finished in the 4th century, the most churches had not all scripture/bible for to read. Today every single person has the possibility to read the bible.
Imagine a believer in Corinth in the year 54 ore 55 when he received the 1. letter from Paul.
In this time was not written the book of acts (60-62), Romans (56 from corinth), gospel of John (earliest 80)
That means he was not able to create a doctrine which says that there is there a second baptism with the Holy Spirit and as sign for that speaking in tongues. Because forthisto create youmust have more information from the scripture then 1. Cor. gives.
Romans, the letter which content the most information about christian Life in no single sentence mentioned the gift of speaking in tongues. If this gift is realy so important for an believer, then why he did not mentioned it. In spite of that Paul wrote this letter in Corinth?
The doctrine which Parham and Seymore create was never taught before in churchhistory and not in the bible. And before they made this expieriences the gift of healing, prophecie and speaking in tongues were practised in several cults, like Mormons, New apostolic chatholic church, Irvingians.
Today around 117 years gone and many different pentecostal branches were build worldwide- But they all are going back to Parham an Seymore and the events in Azusa Street.
But still exactly this teaching is not found in the apostolic time churches!
And thats why it is not possible to argue alone from the knowledge what the christians in the time of 1. Corinthians had.
Because the explaining from Parham and Seymore why we have the sign gifts today is an different then to the apostolic time. They combined it with an special expierience with the Holy Spirit. And this we find not in the teachings of the NT!
Thats why 1909 in germany the most leading denominatians saw in this movement a Spirit from down. And not the Holy Spirit.
By the way the Lord still doing miracles in this world, but the most time with the purpose to bring non believers to Christ and not for to give christians a handsome life.
This doctrine of speaking in tongues created splitting for christianity since it came up in 1900. I cant see any benefits of it for the body of Christ!
It is not my goal to judge anybody. This is only what I recognize. I am not grew up in a pentecostal church. So maby you think I look only from my point as non pentecostal. But I would say If soembody would consider the word of God and the way how something was raises up and presentet to the world could agree with me.
The Lord is ueseing all who follow him, and thats why he is acting and blessing us in spite of our mistakes. There is non denomination which is 100% right in their doctrine and teachings!
FYI " for your information".
"But in those times was also to find a big movement called montanism which was a heretic group, but practiced prophecie and speaking in tongues. Tertullian later joined this group."
The fundamental flaw of Montanism, which it shared with Gnosticism as well as many other heretical movements, was its rejection of the notion of clergy. Montanus taught “the Priesthood of the People,” and this was a threat to the existing Church clergy. Much of the history of Christianity has been determined by this repetitive struggle between the clergy of the Church and those who would do away with it.
the context of the so-called
[FONT="]Pentecostalism is the ancient heresy of Montanism revived
[/FONT]was provided by the following people below .
(Roberts, Alexander and Donaldson, James, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Second Series: Volume I, Oak Harbor, WA: Logos, 1997, Book V. Chapter XVI. The Circumstances Related of Montanus and His False Prophets)
This has nothing to do with what they say is Pentecostalism. The historical information in ref to Seymore was HE read the Book of Acts and said we should ask God for this empowering too. Seymore did not interject Montanus in his experience with the gifts of the Holy Spirit. That is a straw-man
built by
(Roberts, Alexander and Donaldson, James, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Second Series: Volume I, Oak Harbor, WA: Logos, 1997, Book V. Chapter XVI. The Circumstances Related of Montanus and His False Prophets)
The historical context for the of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit are well documented . In even the Reformation those who many hold as used by God have some very serious flaws. John Calvin has said some very ungodly things however, many do not hold him the the same standard . Nor do they Martin Luther. and others. The doctrine of speaking in tongues did not cause a split , Catholics were dealing with this longer than the 1900's . The Gifts of the Holy Spirit is the context and the Scriptures of 1 Corinthians chapters 12, 13, and 14 which have nothing to do with "montanism".
heretic groups Paul addressed in his time and Gnosticism was very much around which died off for a time until the church fathers dealt with it again when the attack on the deity of Christ which brought forth church Creeds .