Not By Works

[dcontroversal]

Remember he as much said abraham was not saved according to james until he offered his son.

I have asked numerous times if abraham would have spent an eternity with God or not if he died before he had that chance, As usuall, they ignore questions when they are backed to a way and need to support their view.

You won't get an honest answer from none of them....the fact that Abraham was saved and justified by faith long before he offered Isaac shoots down his working for dogma.....If he states Abraham would have made the kingdom had he died before he offered Isaac...well, his farce is known....

 

[Stephen63]

I know I was thinking the same thing......who states that....and their coined phrases like hyper grace, greasy grace, etc....makes me think of Goebbels and his Nazi propaganda.....nothing but bloviating and a feeble attempt by religionists to undermine Jesus and his work in favor of their burger king theology and give the dog a bone heresies......

Put a dollar with that, & you still couldn't buy a cup of coffee.

 

[dcontroversal]

I agree...

A Prime example of us "accepting things said to us in church" is what I have highlighted in brown above.

No where does it state in scripture that there was 3 wise men. That is a church tradition taught to us and most Christians would say that there were 3 wise men and "defend the truth" will all their might.

Imagine if the doctrine we believe is based on the same assumptions as the " 3 wise men" is? What if that doctrine has to do with the work of Christ Himself?

Funny, I mentioned this the other day to make a point to some friends of mine about reading in what is not necessarily stated...people assume it was three based upon the fact there were three gifts given......

 

[tourist]

Put a dollar with that, & you still couldn't buy a cup of coffee.

You can at the WaWa's convenience stores in Florida and get change back.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You won't get an honest answer from none of them....the fact that Abraham was saved and justified by faith long before he offered Isaac shoots down his working for dogma.....If he states Abraham would have made the kingdom had he died before he offered Isaac...well, his farce is known....

sadly they are all like this,

even sadder is the fact they it still does not give them pause They just walk on like nothing happened.

if I had a question I could not answer, I would stop what I was doing to get an answer. And not keep ignoring like it will go away.

 

[dcontroversal]

If you really believe only the original is inspired, you really should learn koinè Greek and then read the bible in that Language.
Maybe learn Hebrew and some Aramaic too.

I'm serious. If the translated bibles are incapable of transmittng a concept, even if more words have to be used, then we really should stop reading them.

How could we be sure we're reading the true Word of God???

The ONLY reason you stand against the Greek is because it puts to bed your working for false gospel and salvation that can be lost....end of story....

WHY NOT utilize the inspired languages and verb tenses to get a better UNDERSTANDING.......????????????? <--ANSWER this question

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This world of layered ideas is difficult to decode.
Let me focus of the key ethic being preached. Believe "X" and you are ok.
Fail to believe "X" and you are doomed.

"X" is so brilliant you would only appear to leave "X" because you never really accepted it.

I have met people who have had fads, complexes, trauma, hobbies, revelations etc.
You begin to understand people do things for many different reasons and have many different
perspectives on every subject. In fact it is often so involved, it can sometimes be hard to
generalise.

What you can generalise is binary simplicity is usually wrong. And binary belief systems are usually
constructed to resolve another problem the group find too hard to grapple with, so a binary summary
removes the conflict.

One thing I know from Moses, Peter, Paul, Elijah, Jesus none of this is binary or simple, but many
layered, and failure crops up even with the most blessed and closest to God.

So once you start taking illusion or something you guess at and then condemn ones guess, you
have lost the plot and become a victim of a belief system, and are not living in the light.

Did Peter just show us who he realy is?

Is Peter a universalist?

He has to be, or he would realise there is only one gospel truth, So to say what he said,

The fact is, While not everyones "X" is the correct way, Some people "X" is the right truth. and failure to believe in that "X" you will be doomed. Whether he likes it or not.

So all I can gather from this post, is that their are alot of X's which speak truth, and how dare one X say his X is the right way and everyone elses is the wrong way.

This is universalism .

 

[gb9]

My friend, walking as the world walks, is walking in rebellion against Christs ways.
The binary division is walking in obedience to Christ or walking as the world walks.

Please describe to me another alternative because I do not see one?
Now let me quote Paul about sin

Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?
By no means!
We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?
Rom 6:1-2

It strikes me either you agree with Paul and you have died to sin, or you are still living
in it.

So my friend I have nothing to prove, it is your words that show where you stand and
believe.

If God declares His people Holy, who are you to condemn them?

Are you a temple of the Holy Spirit, Holy and pure or something else?
Now think about your response because Paul is declaring as believers we are cleansed
pure and holy, so it makes me wonder if you understand what he actually meant?

I said" no one is saying that it is o.k. for believers to live like the world." you acted as if I said the opposite.

while you are talking about not sinning, how about you stop misrepresenting what others post. in Biblical terms, this would be called bearing false witness. or is that one of the sins you either don't acknowledge , or just overlook. it has to be one of those two, because you do it regularly............

 

[dcontroversal]

Put a dollar with that, & you still couldn't buy a cup of coffee.

Sure I would....I know the guy who owns the store and get coffee FREE....just like salvation....a wonderful gift that cannot be earned...you should try it....it's free!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This world of layered ideas is difficult to decode.
Let me focus of the key ethic being preached. Believe "X" and you are ok.
Fail to believe "X" and you are doomed.

"X" is so brilliant you would only appear to leave "X" because you never really accepted it.

I have met people who have had fads, complexes, trauma, hobbies, revelations etc.
You begin to understand people do things for many different reasons and have many different
perspectives on every subject. In fact it is often so involved, it can sometimes be hard to
generalise.

What you can generalise is binary simplicity is usually wrong. And binary belief systems are usually
constructed to resolve another problem the group find too hard to grapple with, so a binary summary
removes the conflict.

One thing I know from Moses, Peter, Paul, Elijah, Jesus none of this is binary or simple, but many
layered, and failure crops up even with the most blessed and closest to God.

So once you start taking illusion or something you guess at and then condemn ones guess, you
have lost the plot and become a victim of a belief system, and are not living in the light.

By the way, My truth is flawed, Your truth is flawed. Ever man who ever walked the earth has flawed truth,

But Gods truth is not flawed. Gods truth is flawless, it is somethign to behold It can take you to places you could never imagine, It is not something that people just take lightely, because it has a power no man can give you.

So in his ramble, Peter also admitted that Gods truth is like mans truth, Flawed and unable to be so special that people would just walk away from it.

Peter, You really make God out to be somethign other that what he is, Your continued insistence on humanizing God to make him fit your mold of what you think God aught to be in order to continue in your self righteous gospel is just amazing.

Whats even more amazing is that people here like what you say, Which means they are following right behind you..

 

[dcontroversal]

Did Peter just show us who he realy is?

Is Peter a universalist?

He has to be, or he would realise there is only one gospel truth, So to say what he said,

The fact is, While not everyones "X" is the correct way, Some people "X" is the right truth. and failure to believe in that "X" you will be doomed. Whether he likes it or not.

So all I can gather from this post, is that their are alot of X's which speak truth, and how dare one X say his X is the right way and everyone elses is the wrong way.

This is universalism .

It seems that the fact there is only ONE DOOR to the Heavenly Father and the kingdom alludes them......kind of like ice cream....the gospel has many flavors except salvation by grace dia faith that is eternal and based upon the working power of Christ.....as long as we ADD something like nice colored sprinkles and dip the cone in religious chocolate we are ok.......

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Is this what I would term putting God into a box?

Some think that if you don't believe precisely ad they do, you are lost.
As if God could be that little.
As if they determine who is saved.
As if they make up the salvation rules...

No, this would be a sad mans attempt to try to humanise God and say his truth is really not all that special.

I mean think about it, Why bother following a God who will let you down, Whose truth is not realy all that special. Who is so weak he can not even keep his children from falling away, Who is so untrustworthy, No one could have such deep faith they could not walk away from it.

I praise God he is not as weak and untrustworthy as you all make him out to be.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I said" no one is saying that it is o.k. for believers to live like the world." you acted as if I said the opposite.

while you are talking about not sinning, how about you stop misrepresenting what others post. in Biblical terms, this would be called bearing false witness. or is that one of the sins you either don't acknowledge , or just overlook. it has to be one of those two, because you do it regularly............

I love it

Telling people to grow up and stop sinning, to live like he does,

while he continually breaks the 9th commandment,

Yep, thats a person I want to follow (NOT)

 

[seed_time_harvest]

It is vitally important to read "in context".

Paul tells us exactly what ""who do not walk according to the flesh" means.

Out church teachings and traditions have watered down the truth of the scriptures of the wonderful mystery and beauty of Christ's work on the cross and resurrection.

Here is a quote from the post of graceNpeace concerning this issue.


8 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

[SUP][a][/SUP] who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. Rom 8:1-2


In fact the entire chapter is Paul’s magnum opus on the assurance of salvation.
When you read verse 1, given your track record through this thread up to now you will immediately be thinking that there is an escape clause in that verse: “who do not walk according to the flesh“.

Not so.

Verse 9 explains who is who and what is what:

[SUP]9[/SUP] But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. Rom 8:9

What is the difference between those who are in the flesh and those in the Spirit?

Simple: “Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.” – not a Christian.

Simple: “But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you“ – a Christian.

My take on your approach is that somehow one can flip-flop from one state to another, from having the Holy Spirit to not having the Holy Spirit!

Is this Biblically tenable?

I would submit not.

Unquote:

"who do not walk according to the flesh" is Paul stating the condition or position of the Christian because Christ is in them.

( We can give in to the desires of the flesh - but that is a different subject.)

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Grace777x70 again.

 

[stonesoffire]

You didn't specify the verse.
but I'm not even asking you to.

I don't really understand what you mean.

The Holy Spirit is our guide, no?
So the Holy Spirit advises us of what we SHOULD do, and then HELPS US to do it.
We still get to choose if we do it or not. We're not robots.

Hear
Harken
To heed
to conform to a command or authority
to be obedient, to obey

SO????

I don't get your point.

This is exactly what I'm saying...

It's the verse you just posted. My response is right after yours. The verse is saying that out of relationship as children of God, we have Holy Spirit who teaches and leads. We hear Him or hearken to His voice.

Not the law. A living relationship.

This is what we all are saying in various ways. All the scriptures of the New Testament declares it's relationship to God through the Son, and we here on earth now have Holy Spirit. The scriptures are a guide but we can't know His will out of them.

He has become a personal God to each of us. Speaks to us all. Out of the belly...flows His life.

A whole new way of living, Hebrews declares.

So what if we don't obey? Blood of the high Priest Jesus is ever on the mercy seat before Father. We don't have to wait for the once a year.

And we repent. My failures haunt me more than my successes. Not in condemnation but regret.

And His ever forgiving mercy speaks to me that I have more time to listen.

Law is not so forgiving. Mercy is so much greater.

 

[notuptome]

Matt 6:14“For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.15“But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

So much for forever forgiven.

Mat 6:1 ¶ Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

In context Jesus is giving kingdom principal to Israel. Israel who believes that righteousness is attained by keeping the laws of Moses and the Pharisees.

Verses 14 and 15 that you cite follow Jesus instruction on prayer. It is an injunction to keep a clean slate before the Lord. It in no way implies a loss of salvation only that you cannot have fellowship with the Lord if you do not forgive those who trespass against you as your heavenly Father has forgiven your trespasses.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[dcontroversal]

It's the verse you just posted. My response is right after yours. The verse is saying that out of relationship as children of God, we have Holy Spirit who teaches and leads. We hear Him or hearken to His voice.

Not the law. A living relationship.

This is what we all are saying in various ways. All the scriptures of the New Testament declares it's relationship to God through the Son, and we here on earth now have Holy Spirit. The scriptures are a guide but we can't know His will out of them.

He has become a personal God to each of us. Speaks to us all. Out of the belly...flows His life.

A whole new way of living, Hebrews declares.

So what if we don't obey? Blood of the high Priest Jesus is ever on the mercy seat before Father. We don't have to wait for the once a year.

And we repent. My failures haunt me more than my successes. Not in condemnation but regret.

And His ever forgiving mercy speaks to me that I have more time to listen.

Law is not so forgiving. Mercy is so much greater.

AMEN.........The LAW and Condemnation came by Moses....What does it say came by JESUS.......???? YEP........I will take what came by Christ over what came by Moses.......!!

 

[Meggido]

Oh, maybe I missed it...went to backtrack I could not find it ..oh well.

Did Jesus ever chase after the rich young ruler? Did he chase after the people at Nazareth?
Luke 9 & 10, Matthew 10.14...Jesus never wasted time on people that did not believe.....especially the pharisees....

 

[dcontroversal]

Did Jesus ever chase after the rich young ruler? Did he chase after the people at Nazareth?
Luke 9 & 10, Matthew 10.14...Jesus never wasted time on people that did not believe.....especially the pharisees....

John 3-->Nicodemus?

Did he not eat a meal at one of the Pharisee's houses? Just asking.......

And one of the Pharisees desired him that he would eat with him. And he went into the Pharisee's house, and sat down to meat.

Was Saul a Pharisee of the Pharisees? <---after conversion to be Paul?

 

[Stephen63]

Romans 11:18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

Self explanatory.