Not By Works

[PeterJens]

don't feel bad bro, you see where some of my passion comes from, and why I go crazy so to speak against certain things,

I despise anything that devalues and degrades the blood, sacrifice and work of Christ on our behalf.......

The problem with these sentiments is one can be very wrong about what is valuing
Christ and the cross and what is devaluing it.

If ones whole security is invested emotionally in one view of Christ and anyone who
challenges this is evil and wrong, there is a powerful weapon to be easily miss-used.

How does Paul describe what happens to them when they are miss-understood.

When we are cursed, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure it; when we are slandered, we answer kindly. We have become the scum of the earth, the garbage of the world—right up to this moment.
1 cor 4:12-13

Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ.
Eph 4:15

The key comes from what is driving the communication.
Is it fear and weakness, or love and victory?

So how do you know when you have got it wrong?

Calling people evil because of what they share and not what they do.

Our focus is on good works and being a light in a dark place.
This is showing the healing the Lord has done in our hearts and the fruit of
love and righteousness that has come about.

It is a hard place if neither of these things are present and we are still living
in a dark place and the light is flickering on somewhere else.

You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden.
Matt 5:14

 

[PeterJens]

If what you say here is true, I might as well throw in the towel cause when I sin I do it knowing I am doing it and knowing I am guilty. When I sin, my spirit hates it, but my flesh doesn't mind. Do you mean to say you have gotten to a point that your only sins are incidental and only out of casual ignorance like making a mistake writing on a chalk board or something? If this is what your saying, I am not sure I can agree with you. If you are saying this, I couldn't say the same without feeling like I am sinning for saying it.

This is being so general. This could be "I get angry at someone and say a rude word" to
"I murder people and bury them in the back yard".

This fuzzy hyper-legalism and willful rebellion is neither of the Lord or healthy.
When God calls us to confess individual sins and repent of them, He is not kidding, because
it stops this insane rebellion is ok attitude, we are defeated and only hypocrites talk about
overcoming.

If you continue in this rebellion you either do not know the Lord or do not care.

 

[PeterJens]

The two witness are symbolic for the saints of God, (His witnesses down through the church age) when two or more are gathered together in His name........

g7 loves mockery and condescension as if he represents the correct way of looking
at everything. It is this arrogance he somehow is addicted to, and catagorising everything
into his pigeon holes. It is a wonder how showing such disrespect to the words of Christ
is seen as spiritual insight by some.

 

[Ariel82]

This is a lie and an underhanded attack that says that those on medicine can't be empathic and connect with people because they are one step removed from reality.

The log is how folks can attack others and not own up to having falsely accused and labeled them.

Now for those on medication for anxiety, it is no wonder things do not get through, because one
is one step removed from reality. And any emotional empathy story, or talk about how the Lord
moves us will just bounce off because the trauma within is so much greater, nothing can get
passed it.

I don't bother trying to get him to see he is wrong IN HIS FALSE ASSESSMENT OF OTHERS anymore.

Just posting to tell BillG not to believe his lies and misconceptions.

We see you Bill and love you as our beloved brother.

 

[gb9]

yes, some need to get a big mirror and spend a lot of time looking into it....

 

[graceNpeace]

This is a lie and an underhanded attack that says that those on medicine can't be empathic and connect with people because they are one step removed from reality.

The log is how folks can attack others and not own up to having falsely accused and labeled them.



I don't bother trying to get him to see he is wrong IN HIS FALSE ASSESSMENT OF OTHERS anymore.

Just posting to tell BillG not to believe his lies and misconceptions.

We see you Bill and love you as our beloved brother.

Went back and found the full post you quote.
Quite astonishing to see such ignorance and lack of compassion combined in one post!

I stand with Bill!

 

[PeterJens]

This is quite a claim "Some people use the law as a club to beat others with"

What are you referring to?
Are you suggesting someone with addiction problems or sexual inclinations that are not healthy
should not be challenged or something else?

My understanding of this phrase is actually reading the law.

What one needs to see is Paul when saying walking in the Spirit we fulfill
the law and there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus walking
in the Spirit, it means the law causes them no problems.

Those walking in the Spirit cannot be bashed by the law.

But as some have mentioned cultural conformity or rebellion is used by some as
an instrument of judgementalism, which is not good or of the Lord.

Love God with no other gods before him
Do not make a graven image
Do not take the Lords name in vain
Keep the sabbath
Honour your parents
Do not murder
Do not commit adultery
Do not steal
Do not bear false witness
Do not covet.

Is the above difficult when walking in the Spirit?

In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome
1 John 5:3

For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.
Matt 11:30

 

[Ariel82]

I try and not quote people for those who have them on ignore...it's better some words aren't read without prayer first.

My ignore feature is used for the purpose to remind me to pray first...


I'm
gonna
need
Obvious
Reminders (to pray before)
Engaging (you)


So yeah I have some folks on "ignore" but once a week I take them all off and hope they have grown in the Lord and no longer attacking and falsely accusing people.

I only have a limited time to be online and I came for fellowship.....not to be told how stupid folks think I am.

 

[Ariel82]

If you read my whole post/conversation where the term "clubbing people with the law" was used...I also explained how the law could be used to empower people to overcome sin.

However folks would prefer to ignore that and "teach me" how dumb I am that I need to sit at their feet and "learn" from them.

 

[gb9]

My understanding of this phrase is actually reading the law.

What one needs to see is Paul when saying walking in the Spirit we fulfill
the law and there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus walking
in the Spirit, it means the law causes them no problems.

Those walking in the Spirit cannot be bashed by the law.

But as some have mentioned cultural conformity or rebellion is used by some as
an instrument of judgementalism, which is not good or of the Lord.

Love God with no other gods before him
Do not make a graven image
Do not take the Lords name in vain
Keep the sabbath
Honour your parents
Do not murder
Do not commit adultery
Do not steal
Do not bear false witness
Do not covet.

Is the above difficult when walking in the Spirit?

In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome
1 John 5:3

For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.
Matt 11:30

well since you bear false witness everyday, you disqualify yourself from your own standards.............

 

[FranC]

instead of always blaming me, why do you not investigate to see what really happen d, this stuff really gets old the man came in here with an attitude, you want to come in with an attitude, expect to get one back.

PHarts third post in this thread, up thill this time, he seemed pretty normal, then this occurred.



this comment right here breads confrontation, all he had to do was leave this out, and most likely no one would have sad anything to him, but he could not let it go,

we we are confused, we are indoctrinated, well wow, three posts in and he already knows us, and already attacking us,

And here, in response to something D.C. Said, was he being honest, trying to stir up DISCUSSION? I could be wrong but I went back a few pages and am not sure I have even spoken to PHart yet, but this is what. Am reading before I speak. As you can see I already see a major issue, he is not here to discuss by these words, but push what he believ s,,



again, he did not have to make that first comment, if he simply said the rest, most likely our heated discussions and his heated discussions with others may never have happened.

moving on.



and here we go, the person has been here a few short posts, yet here he is slandering over half the room claiming they defend a dead faith, yet was it not he earlier who demanded someone misunderstood him? Yet here he is accusing, I confronted, asked for proof (which I never got, not really expected to) and it went downhill from there

all because instead of trying to discuss things

he had to attack people falsly

he had to tell them they can not hear, and everyone not like him is confused and indoctrinated

the only thing that surprises me is more people did not confront this behavior and the fact that a "side" kept defending him well that should tell you the sad state of our chat room.

I admit, I went to far a few times, my anger at him caused Megiddo to confront me, I did not handle that well

but to all the people trying to stick up for this man and say it's my fault, you should be ashamed


And and I have not even posted the arrogant stuff he posted at me, that stuff does not bother me, I love it, it just shows a persons true character.

Hi EG,

Sorry, I just saw this. It just popped up when I logged on.
It must be a message from God!

I read your post twice. I think I saw almost everything PHart wrote.
It seemed to me like your responses were a bit harsh and I'll tell you why.

This bothered you:

PHart said:
I understand your confusion. You and countless others have been indoctrinated by the church.

I don't think he came here with an attitude. It seems to me that he was trying really hard to make a point and no one seemed to be listening. He feels that no one was understanding him because they "are indoctrinated by the church". It's his prerogative to believe this if he wants to. I don't see why this statement would bother you so much. It was just necessary that you reply that you were NOT endoctrinated by a church, instead of becoming upset.

If we want to think about it, this comment does not breed confrontation but conversation. I think that sometimes guys do this... they feel confronted when actually they are not. Women are less likely to feel this way.


Then you were bothered by this comment:

PHart said:
And, again, you simply can not hear what is being argued.

See. This only proves what I said above. He felt that no one was either listening to him or understanding him.
You youself said that the rest of his comment was fine. So, let a sentence go, for goodness sake. Was it Worth it for hm to leave? Personally I think he added a touch of seriousness and was happy to have him here.

We do need to listen to each other better. I also feel that no one here (on your "side", sorry to have to say it that way)
really understands what I'm saying. I keep being told I don't have the Holy Spirit... (not necessarily by you).

Then you go on to say how he was accusing people here of having dead faith.
He did attempt to explain what he meant by that.

have I not been accused many times of being a "worker for" "cake taker" being lost, going to hell, not having the Holy Spirit?

You see. It goes both ways.

I try to just stick to what is being discussed without getting all personal about anything. Sometimes we go ovef-board. OK. We're only human. But we should Always show love to our brothers.

I'm not blaming you for what happened. I think maybe you're a bit to sensitive??? I don't know. I don't know you that well.

ALL OF US should listen very carefully as to what is being said.

Love in Christ

 

[Ariel82]

EG gets heated about folks he thinks are legalistic the same why you hate Calvinist, FranC and Stephen hates easy believism.

Sometimes the hate blinds folks to what is actually being said and doesn't really help change the hearts and minds of folks actually enslaved to the lies that y'all are fighting against.

Dcon stands against works salvation.

I believe it's all been placed on your hearts by God to fight against these false doctrines...but we fight doctrines not one another,

It's important to remember that.


We are seeking to help our brothers and sister to tear down or ecognize the lies and the spiritual strongholds these false doctrines establish...this can only be done with love and GENTLENESS.

 

[FranC]

This is a lie and an underhanded attack that says that those on medicine can't be empathic and connect with people because they are one step removed from reality.

The log is how folks can attack others and not own up to having falsely accused and labeled them.



I don't bother trying to get him to see he is wrong IN HIS FALSE ASSESSMENT OF OTHERS anymore.

Just posting to tell BillG not to believe his lies and misconceptions.

We see you Bill and love you as our beloved brother.

Ariel,

I love BillG too.
I'll bet he would agree with me when I say this:

EVERYONE on this thread is our beloved Brother.

Just because we don't agree with each other does not mean that we are not brothers in Christ.

 

[PeterJens]

This is a lie and an underhanded attack that says that those on medicine can't be empathic and connect with people because they are one step removed from reality.
The log is how folks can attack others and not own up to having falsely accused and labeled them.
I don't bother trying to get him to see he is wrong IN HIS FALSE ASSESSMENT OF OTHERS anymore.
Just posting to tell BillG not to believe his lies and misconceptions.
We see you Bill and love you as our beloved brother.

You interpret things as an attack rather than an observation.
If I meet someone who wants to engage with people and has strong convictions which
are impervious to logic, discussion and life experience, it makes one wonder why.

Medication does change the ball game, and also how things make an impact or not.

I love the contributors here, and I like to understand why something that stirs me
and is obvious, seems to not stir others.

Ariel, my friend, you have even admitted your family are concerned about how salesman
influence you. We all have these issues, which impact how words come across and why
we favour one aspect over another.

 

[Ariel82]

Ariel,

I love BillG too.
I'll bet he would agree with me when I say this:

EVERYONE on this thread is our beloved Brother.

Just because we don't agree with each other does not mean that we are not brothers in Christ.

I totally agree and even Peterjens would agree.

.that isn't the point.


The point is that Bill taking medicine doesn't make him less able to relate to reality and build relationships based on God's truth as Peterjens states.

 

[Ariel82]

Salesmen don't influence me.

What exactly do you think my family has concerns about?

They say I am too trusting and tries to see the best in OTHERS. They are worried that someone evil will hurt me.

However I try out of love for them to be cautious and wary,but I also have faith in God to protect me and continue to reach out to those God moves my heart to reach even if the world tells me they are "evil" or "dangerous".

 

[MattforJesus]

Faith alone,not saved by works,when we confess Christ,for that is all we can do because we are in the flesh,and have not received the Spirit yet.

Faith without works is dead,and a person is justified by works,and not faith alone,and a person has to work out their own salvation with fear and trembling,after they receive the Spirit,for then the responsibility falls on them to maintain their salvation,for the Spirit will not force them to live for God,and act like Christ,but they must keep making the choice to allow the Spirit to lead them,and abstain from sin,and do works of the Spirit,to have saving faith active in their life.

James pointed out that if a person does not help the poor and needy,then faith without works is dead,and Paul said they have erred from the faith,and John said the love of God does not dwell in them.

Paul said necessity was laid on him to preach the Gospel,and woe is him if he does not preach the Gospel,and Jesus told the saints to preach the Gospel to every creature.

Paul said we do not void out the law through faith,but we establish the law,and the law is spiritual,holy,just,and good,which are the laws of love,moral laws.

And do not depart from the living God,by the deceitfulness of sin.

And be righteous,and sin not.

And blessed is the person that is tempted,but does not sin,for they shall receive a crown of life,given to all the saints who love Christ,so this is eternal life,and do not err brethren,but abstain from sin.

We have to have works of the Spirit to have saving faith in our life,which is to preach the Gospel,help the poor and needy,abstain from sin,and anything else that is of goodness.

They say works does not save us,but the point is a matter of obedience,for if we do not do the works of the Spirit,then we are disobedient to the will of God,and the works of God,and to obey is better than sacrifice.

The Bible says we are to cast down all imaginations,and bring every thought to the obedience of Christ.

Therefore works does save us,for if we do not do the works,then saving faith is not active in our life,and we are being disobedient to God for not doing the works that He requires us to do.

They make excuses that sin does not affect their relationship with God,but if they are disobedient here are some things the Bible says about it,they have erred from the faith,erred from the truth,their faith is dead,they will be cut off,they are not of the Father,the love of God does not dwell in them.

Many are called but few are chosen,and not everybody that confessed Christ received the Spirit,but they can correct it if they understand that sin does affect their relationship with God,for they have been called,for no person can say Jesus is Lord,but by the Holy Ghost,but they have to be chosen by understanding sin does affect their relationship with God,which some are ever learning,and never able to understand this truth,because they do not want to give up sin.

If we have the means to help the poor and needy,and we do not do it,then we are being disobedient to God.

If we do not abstain from sin led by the Spirit,then we are being disobedient to God.

If we do not get out and preach the Gospel,then we are being disobedient to God.

Quench not the Spirit,and be obedient to God,and do the works that He requires of you.

They say they cannot abstain from sin,and sin does not affect their relationship with God,but there are millions of people that claim Christ,that enjoy sin,worldliness,neglect the poor and needy,which they are being disobedient to God,and faith is not active in their life.

They cannot abstain from sin is a strange statement,because they do it willingly,and were not forced to sin,and if they did not want sin,they could abstain from sin by the Spirit,but the point is they want sin.

That is the whole point behind their beliefs,that it is faith alone,even though that means when we confess Christ,not after we receive the Spirit,we cannot abstain from sin,and sin does not affect our relationship with God,and we do not have to do works to be saved,so that they can enjoy sin.

That is the whole point behind their beliefs,so they can enjoy sins,and the pleasures of this world.

So they took out everything that would give them responsibility,that would cause them to fall,so they can enjoy sins,and think they are alright with God.

Their whole belief system is so they can enjoy worldliness,and still be right with God.

That is why a person cannot convince them otherwise,and they will not adhere to scriptures,for their belief system is because they like sin,and do no not want to give it up.

 

[PeterJens]

well since you bear false witness everyday, you disqualify yourself from your own standards.............

gb9 - God bless you. As you are accusing me of sin, and say I do this everyday,
you must be lying as I am not on cc everyday.

Secondly saying I am bearing false witness, you have to say about what?
Else you are bearing false witness against me. Ironic that.

I do not mind people pointing out truth or real things, but this kind of attitude
is pointless and speaks of a heart which desires to rebuke and silence another
but does not have an avenue to express it, but will try and invent one.

That is a disappointing witness of spiritual truth, which I would hope you desire
to follow.

 

[dcontroversal]

If what you say here is true, I might as well throw in the towel cause when I sin I do it knowing I am doing it and knowing I am guilty. When I sin, my spirit hates it, but my flesh doesn't mind. Do you mean to say you have gotten to a point that your only sins are incidental and only out of casual ignorance like making a mistake writing on a chalk board or something? If this is what your saying, I am not sure I can agree with you. If you are saying this, I couldn't say the same without feeling like I am sinning for saying it.

Go read anything he writes and it becomes all too clear that he is speaking without knowledge.....he continually pushes this "I don't sin" or "I only sin little sins" that cannot cause me to lose my salvation.....He pushes a loss of salvation and one must maintain it.....just another deceptive false pusher of a gospel the bible does not teach.

 

[gb9]

gb9 - God bless you. As you are accusing me of sin, and say I do this everyday,
you must be lying as I am not on cc everyday.

Secondly saying I am bearing false witness, you have to say about what?
Else you are bearing false witness against me. Ironic that.

I do not mind people pointing out truth or real things, but this kind of attitude
is pointless and speaks of a heart which desires to rebuke and silence another
but does not have an avenue to express it, but will try and invent one.

That is a disappointing witness of spiritual truth, which I would hope you desire
to follow.

your are correct the everyday word was a figure of speech, I should have used a different word.

now, the rest of the post , I stand by it. when you claim others say things they do not say, when you distort what others say,( you did it with ariel just a few moments ago), put words into people's mouths, this is bearing false witness.

deny it all you want, you do it on a regular basis....