Not By Works

[Ariel82]

Bruce,
The Greek rendering does not bear you out on this one.
2 Thess 2.3 and its uses of Apostasy or apostasia in the original Greek means defection/rebellion and it is from the Greek root word apostasion which means divorce. A divorce is not simple separation as many teachers suggest it means. Divorce is final. All the Greek root words related to this never say the word separate, neither does vines. All the transliteration words relating to Apostasy in the Greek are clear, a willful rebellious defection and divorce from something.

We could say the word apostasy means to fall away through rebellious defection.

Likewise the term fall away in 1 Tim 4.1 is related to the words above and is aphistēmi it carries even a more direct meaning that also includes to tall away from pistis, or faith. It also means to cut oneself from something....again the word separate is not used anywhere.

If you study out the word fall away from 1 Tim 4.1 you will see that it is also related to the Greek word piptō. This is the word that Jesus used in Luke 10.18 when he described Satan "fall" from heaven. This word means to lose a position of authority due to rebellious defection.

The Greek word for separation found in Romans 8.39 is chōrizō and means to separate or go away....Now since Paul used this word here, why not use this word in 2 Thess 2.3 and 1 Tim 4.1?

Many Bible teachers and preachers describe the words apostasy and fall away in 2 Thess 2.3 1 Tim 4.1 as chōrizō
because they have been taught that Romans 8.38-39 is about salvation. However, this is also a false teaching.

Romans 8.38-9 tell us nothing can separate us from the Love of God in Christ Jesus....it doe snot say nothing can separate our salvation from Christ Jesus. Lascivious Grace teaches a damnable heresy here. They suggest the word love here is actually grace and that Jesus own love/grace saved us and this is how it is explained that Romans 8.38-39 are all about eternal security...

Except for a small thing that people ignore or have not studied out...Paul's use of words...

In the Epistle of Romans, Paul used the same word salvation or sōtēria a total of 5 times.
Romans 1.16
Romans 10.1
Romans 10.10
Romans 11.1
Romans 13.11

If Paul was using the word salvation and wanted us to have the assurance of eternal security in Romans 8, he would have used the word that means that he would have wrote Romans 8.38-39 this way...

[SUP]38 [/SUP]For I am convinced that neither [SUP](A)[/SUP]death, nor life, nor [SUP](B)[/SUP]angels, nor principalities, nor [SUP](C)[/SUP]things present, nor things to come, nor powers, [SUP]39 [/SUP]nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from [SUP](D)[/SUP]the salvation of God, which is [SUP](E)[/SUP]in Christ Jesus our Lord.



Yet he wrote it this way:

[SUP]38 [/SUP]For I am convinced that neither [SUP](A)[/SUP]death, nor life, nor [SUP](B)[/SUP]angels, nor principalities, nor [SUP](C)[/SUP]things present, nor things to come, nor powers, [SUP]39 [/SUP]nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from [SUP](D)[/SUP]the love of God, which is [SUP](E)[/SUP]in Christ Jesus our Lord.


People have to do so terrible destruction and twisting of scripture to suggest the love of God in Christ Jesus really means salvation..

The easy out many give is not only does the love means salvation, but Since Paul was talking about the Jews in Romans 10, 11 then it really is not for gentiles....when you redirect them back to the use of it in Romans 1 and remind them Paul was describing gentiles their heads explode and they drop fellowship with you....this is because the truth outweighs the easy believing grace they are peddling...


Be mindful that chōrizō is uesd only 12 x in the whole NT and not once is it used in reference to falling away/apostasy.

Now i am gonna have to research this and see if it has any grounds.....mmmmhh

 

[Magenta]

But God gives us this hope:

Doesn't change the fact that we live in a fallen world. I answered your question. Maybe I shouldn't bother. I don't need reams of Scripture from you to prove something to me as if it were I who had the question.

 

[PeterJens]

Yous got lotsa powa Stephen63.
Yous can gits two gals a arguin' !!
WOWY
Oh. And I'm sorry.
I think I forgot to flirt with you.
Will make up for it in the future...

I worked with a lady who was ex-army. She was a consultant on security.
Her way of appreciating people who helped her was to flirt. But unfortunately it
was her way of saying she appreciated help, not she meant real flirting. Some very
inexperienced young men, literally did not understand her or the boundaries this
behaviour was displaying.

She was a nice person, as far as I knew her, but that was it, literally, and would never have
been anything else. She got freaked out when someone started to take her seriously.

I think this forum includes some who think a few words really mean more than a few words.
But then if one is very vulnerable and niave maybe this is all some have got. Little wonder
people can easily exploit others if this is the level of emotional maturity they have.

And on a personal level, if they are this easily swayed, what happens on a serious spiritual
level, what kind of deep wisdom are they really listening to?

 

[dcontroversal]

Proverbs 24:16 - For a righteous man may fall seven times And rise again, BUT the wicked shall fall by calamity.

AMEN....that is because the grace of God (rejected by most) out bounds our sin.......

 

[Stephen63]

Nope, I continue to insist I never said that God's elect could be destroyed, I have not denied saying the rest of it, your complaint was about that part and you accused me based on that. There is a difference between saying people are TRYING to do something and that they can actually DO that something, and since I see you complaining about people twisting what others say perhaps you need to pay more attention yourself. Your misunderstanding is your responsibility. You could have a hundred reasons for whatever you assumed that caused you to insert yourself (perhaps it was simply your narcissism after all) , but your assumptions are your own. Go back and you will see that JIMBO's nasty response to Bill was what prompted what I said. You had nothing to do with it but you came at me with pistols blazing just the same and YOU are responsible for that, not I despite your claims of it being all my fault.

Originally Posted by Magenta

Right, just like I am free to say I did not ask you. What names did I call you???

You say the us and them mentality saddens your soul but you have your own breakdowns of us and them, I have seen it, so get sad all you want, defend the 1 liars and pretenders all you want, pretend they do not do the same things over and over again and then act innocent or pretend it does not exist 2 when their blatant lies are pointed out to them, 3 where their exegetical errors are made clear to them, nothing changes them, 4 they are hell bent on trying to destroying God's elect, 5 they work for Satan, us and them, hmm, yeah, I stand with those on the side of God, there is a decided division, pick your side carefully, or pretend there are no sides, if you prefer.

"hell bent on trying to destroying God's elect" doesn't scream impossible to me. It seems to state the ability to do so.

With all your warhooping on here this morning, perhaps your general demeanor made it look that way.

In any case, I'm sorry if I got that wrong.

Exactly what I was thinking....I have never seen him admit error one time ever........and like Adam and EVE....it is ALWAYS everybody else.....and their fault......

To dcon: You better copy this post, 'cause I just made a liar out of you when you said "he doesn't admit anything."

BTW, here's another apology that shows you lied:

I apologize to the readers at CC & valiant for posting this. I regret my actions. I was ticked off when I wrote it, & spouted off in anger. I will try to do better, with God's help, because God & our readers deserve better. Please forgive me.

You see readers, just because dcon says it doesn't mean it's true.

 

[stonesoffire]

It's almost painful to watch...like the old ladies who like to punch little boys bottoms. I tend to tell my kids to steer clear of it.

I know it's suppose to be joking but with the amount of adultery and sexual immorality in the world, I don't find it humorous.

I didn't say anything because I didn't want to be legalistic about it, but flirting does make me uncomfortable. Just one of those things I think should stay between husband and wife.

I feel the same way. I'm her same age, and you all mostly are the same ages of my kids. I think about the "coyotes" when I read this stuff. Makes me ill too.

By our age...we should be examples of godly women having experienced the overcoming of flesh.

 

[Magenta]

"hell bent on trying to destroying God's elect" doesn't scream impossible to me. It seems to state the ability to do so.

All your screaming about what you THINK I meant does not change the fact that you are wrong. Suck it up Stephen. Just because atheists are hell bent on proving God does not exist does not in ANY way mean they are going to succeed (just an example to prove you wrong, AGAIN).

 

[dcontroversal]

BTW, here's another apology that shows you lied:

[/COLOR]

You see readers, just because dcon says it doesn't mean it's true.

More proof of what a deceiver you are....and the fact you consistently twist words and leave out context to make yourself look good at the expense of others....everybody can read and see you for what you are......and what religion do you represent and did you not say you are a charismatic preacher..like church of God or was it Assembly of God or Pentecostal?

HERE IS MY QUOTE and I NEVER SAID YOU HAVE NOT DONE IT DECEIVER.....BUT THAT I HAD NEVER SEEN YOU DO IT and it is easy to MISS quotes as we ALL HAVE....so..next time pay attention to my words and do not twist them without context to make yourself look good....man...you for sure take the cake.....PAY ATTENTION to the bolded...it does not say he has never......


Exactly what I was thinking....I have never seen him admit error one time ever........and like Adam and EVE....it is ALWAYS everybody else.....and their fault......

 

[Stephen63]

Ya know, it's been proven during Trump's campaigning & rallies there were protestors causing all kinds of mayhem to make Trump look bad, as wellas make it look like the public didn't want him.

It's really not so far-fetched to think there's people in the BDF doing similar things to sway public opinion on easy believism.

Thank you laura_charlotte, for believing me. Now I don't feel like I'm by myself about this little charade

 

[stonesoffire]

Stone is a girl.

Good grief.

 

[Grace777x70]

Bruce,
The Greek rendering does not bear you out on this one.
2 Thess 2.3 and its uses of Apostasy or apostasia in the original Greek means defection/rebellion and it is from the Greek root word apostasion which means divorce. A divorce is not simple separation as many teachers suggest it means. Divorce is final. All the Greek root words related to this never say the word separate, neither does vines. All the transliteration words relating to Apostasy in the Greek are clear, a willful rebellious defection and divorce from something.

We could say the word apostasy means to fall away through rebellious defection.

Likewise the term fall away in 1 Tim 4.1 is related to the words above and is aphistēmi it carries even a more direct meaning that also includes to tall away from pistis, or faith. It also means to cut oneself from something....again the word separate is not used anywhere.

If you study out the word fall away from 1 Tim 4.1 you will see that it is also related to the Greek word piptō. This is the word that Jesus used in Luke 10.18 when he described Satan "fall" from heaven. This word means to lose a position of authority due to rebellious defection.

The Greek word for separation found in Romans 8.39 is chōrizō and means to separate or go away....Now since Paul used this word here, why not use this word in 2 Thess 2.3 and 1 Tim 4.1?

Many Bible teachers and preachers describe the words apostasy and fall away in 2 Thess 2.3 1 Tim 4.1 as chōrizō
because they have been taught that Romans 8.38-39 is about salvation. However, this is also a false teaching.

Romans 8.38-9 tell us nothing can separate us from the Love of God in Christ Jesus....it doe snot say nothing can separate our salvation from Christ Jesus. Lascivious Grace teaches a damnable heresy here. They suggest the word love here is actually grace and that Jesus own love/grace saved us and this is how it is explained that Romans 8.38-39 are all about eternal security...

Except for a small thing that people ignore or have not studied out...Paul's use of words...

In the Epistle of Romans, Paul used the same word salvation or sōtēria a total of 5 times.
Romans 1.16
Romans 10.1
Romans 10.10
Romans 11.1
Romans 13.11

If Paul was using the word salvation and wanted us to have the assurance of eternal security in Romans 8, he would have used the word that means that he would have wrote Romans 8.38-39 this way...

[SUP]38 [/SUP]For I am convinced that neither [SUP](A)[/SUP]death, nor life, nor [SUP](B)[/SUP]angels, nor principalities, nor [SUP](C)[/SUP]things present, nor things to come, nor powers, [SUP]39 [/SUP]nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from [SUP](D)[/SUP]the salvation of God, which is [SUP](E)[/SUP]in Christ Jesus our Lord.



Yet he wrote it this way:

[SUP]38 [/SUP]For I am convinced that neither [SUP](A)[/SUP]death, nor life, nor [SUP](B)[/SUP]angels, nor principalities, nor [SUP](C)[/SUP]things present, nor things to come, nor powers, [SUP]39 [/SUP]nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from [SUP](D)[/SUP]the love of God, which is [SUP](E)[/SUP]in Christ Jesus our Lord.


People have to do so terrible destruction and twisting of scripture to suggest the love of God in Christ Jesus really means salvation..

The easy out many give is not only does the love means salvation, but Since Paul was talking about the Jews in Romans 10, 11 then it really is not for gentiles....when you redirect them back to the use of it in Romans 1 and remind them Paul was describing gentiles their heads explode and they drop fellowship with you....this is because the truth outweighs the easy believing grace they are peddling.


Be mindful that chōrizō is uesd only 12 x in the whole NT and not once is it used in reference to falling away/apostasy.

I don't know what you are talking about in brown above as I have never heard that said before in my life and I have listened to over 2,000 messages now of the grace and love of God in Christ. I'm not saying you haven't seen it - I just have never heard of this before.

I personally don't agree with licentiousness or lasciviousness which means "without restraint" and it comes in many forms and not just to do with sexual unrestraint.


I disagree with the meaning of the Greek word for apostasy that some preachers talk about because of this below and the other scriptures that use it:

861. [FONT="Galatia Sil" !important]ἀφίστημι[/FONT] [FONT="Gentium" !important]aphistēmi[/FONT] verb

Cause to revolt, mislead, lead away, withdraw from, abstain from, depart, desert, fall away.
Complete Biblical Library Greek-English Dictionary, The - The Complete Biblical Library Greek-English Dictionary – Alpha-Gamma.

One can be going to church all their life, be out witnessing, reading the bible and "be fallen ( apostasy ) from the faith and not be living by faith in Christ's work at all" - that is - not really trusting in Christ's finished work.

Paul also in 1 Tim 4:1-6 showed exactly what this "falling away from the faith is". It is people doing "deeds" to make themselves separate from others. Forbidding to marry and to not eat certain meats. All works-based belief systems for righteousness.

All works-based religions including the one sometimes called Christianity is an attempt to live from our own works of righteousness and that is falling from the faith. Trusting in what they do or don't do. This is revolting against the work of Christ so I do agree with the "rebellion" part.

Here are some examples of the exact same Greek word being used - for "apostasy".

Luke 4:13 (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season.

Acts 5:38 (NASB)
[SUP]38 [/SUP] "So in the present case, I say to you, stay away from these men and let them alone, for if this plan or action is of men, it will be overthrown;

Acts 15:38 (KJV)
[SUP]38 [/SUP] But Paul thought not good to take him with them, who departed from them from Pamphylia, and went not with them to the work.

2 Corinthians 12:8 (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

 

[dcontroversal]

Thank God for the grace of God that out bounds our sin.....and how do we access this grace...BY FAITH and BIBLICAL SALVATION....

In the GRACE you ARE (positioning) having been saved out of FAITH (the means of salvation) and that not of yourselves (nothing we do including works) it is the GIFT OF GOD (freely given by faith) not of works lest any man should boast (second reference to any human merit, work or effort having to do with salvation which is freely given by FAITH)

 

[Stephen63]

More proof of what a deceiver you are....and the fact you consistently twist words and leave out context to make yourself look good at the expense of others....everybody can read and see you for what you are......and what religion do you represent and did you not say you are a charismatic preacher..like church of God or was it Assembly of God or Pentecostal?

HERE IS MY QUOTE and I NEVER SAID YOU HAVE NOT DONE IT DECEIVER.....BUT THAT I HAD NEVER SEEN YOU DO IT and it is easy to MISS quotes as we ALL HAVE....so..next time pay attention to my words and do not twist them without context to make yourself look good....man...you for sure take the cake.....PAY ATTENTION to the bolded...it does not say he has never......


Exactly what I was thinking....I have never seen him admit error one time ever........and like Adam and EVE....it is ALWAYS everybody else.....and their fault......

Well, I guess it could be true when you said you didn't see me do it, because that's not what you search for in my posts.

 

[Magenta]

Well, I guess it could be true when you said you didn't see me do it, because that's not what you search for in my posts.

You could prove yourself right here right now by admitting you were wrong. Go ahead Stephen. Do it. You said you could. Let's see it. You were wrong about falsely accusing me repeatedly about something I did NOT say. You were wrong to believe I was talking about you. You were wrong to insert yourself and take offense when nothing I wrote had you in mind in the least. Go ahead. Spit it out. Try not to choke on the words.

 

[dcontroversal]

Well, I guess it could be true when you said you didn't see me do it, because that's not what you search for in my posts.

How hard is it to say....MAN, BRO, DUDE....I am sorry, I misread your post or It is my bad because I thought you said I have never done it or.....fill in the blank.....

HAHAHHAHA and to be honest....I don't search your posts for any particular reason.....and on a few occasions have liked things you have said, but over all we diametrically oppose each other concerning biblical salvation...on how it is obtained and the length or durability of said salvation......end of story.....I don't hate you, despise you or particularly dislike you....I just cannot stand your doctrine....as I am sure the feeling is mutual.....Jesus will sort it all out at the end of the day...literally the last day!

 

[stonesoffire]

This is my opinion and since I'm so old now, I think I can see a bit beyond some of you.

We can lose our first love from the experiences of life and fall away from fellowshipping for a time. Maybe even turn back into sin...but it will never satisfy one who has tasted of life. There is nothing like the presence of the Lord, and His touch. And we will ever be called back to our first love.

We have forces of evil that come against us. Plus our own flesh nature that we do not understand about when we first born from above. It becomes an overcoming lifestyle for us, and never stops until our time here is over. So we guard our heart jealously..and keep the fire of love burning. Those are the things we do...with our helper, Holy Spirit.

I think the 7 church warnings are what to take heed about.

And in the midst of this overcoming...the fruit of the Spirit grows and not only satisfies our own soul, but those of others.

 

[Magenta]

In the meantime you have said quite a few nasty things to me and falsely accused me of a number of other things all because you refuse to admit you were wrong, even claiming your errors were all my fault. Despite saying you can admit it when you are wrong obviously you are loathe to do so.

 

[PeterJens]

Bruce,
The Greek rendering does not bear you out on this one.
2 Thess 2.3 and its uses of Apostasy or apostasia in the original Greek means defection/rebellion and it is from the Greek root word apostasion which means divorce. A divorce is not simple separation as many teachers suggest it means. Divorce is final. All the Greek root words related to this never say the word separate, neither does vines. All the transliteration words relating to Apostasy in the Greek are clear, a willful rebellious defection and divorce from something.....

Very good. The thing I notice about the spirit of teachers against apostacy, is they cannot
tell the difference between love and salvation, and are desperate to find verses
that support the idea God does not care about sin, just a statement of faith in Christ.

I don't know what you are talking about in brown above as I have never heard that said before in my life and I have listened to over 2,000 messages now of the grace and love of God in Christ. I'm not saying you haven't seen it - I just have never heard of this before.

This response does not address the points and just sidesteps the obvious reality,
people can rebel and have done since the Lord created man, believers and unbelievers.

A closed heart will never dwell on the things that show they are not addressing the
issue, but just distract onto points they feel show their case.

It is always the closed heart which is a lost cause, but those who are listening certainly are
not.

 

[oldethennew]

I wonder what Jesus searches for in all of our Posts?
is He listening?
do we care if He is?
if we do, does it show in our words that come from our hearts?
do we love/care enough for the ones that we are speaking to?
what do you think He expects of us when we speak to others?
are we taught to defend ourselves, when He clearly did not?
do you think that we can make Him cry?

 

[Grace777x70]

In order to keep the deceit down to a minimum - I will post this again for about the 15th time in the hope that it will be a blessing to someone who is struggling in their Christian life.

All forms of self-effort to maintain and create one's own righteousness is "falling or departing from the faith" and trusting in their own works.

This is true "apostasy" and I am against it in all it's forms - from outright sinning to believing in a works-based salvation. Both of them are "apostasy".

Personally I am vehemently against all forms of sinning as they all bring destruction of some sort to us while on this earth - especially the one of unbelief in Christ's finished work on the cross.

I don't see any difference in sinning by living a homosexual lifestyle to having malice, bitterness, having outbursts of anger, being deceitful, being jealous and envious and the slandering of others in the body of Christ. All of these, as well as all the works of the flesh bring about death to us in this life. They are contrary to the life off Christ in us now.

Here is my view on sin and it's affects on us and on how the Holy Spirit transforms us as we behold the glory ( goodness ) of our Lord as in a mirror. 2 Cor. 3:17-18

Sin changes our perspective on things and causes us to not look at our Father in the right light of who He truly is. ( The same as Adam and Eve did when they hid from Him even though He was still coming to visit with them and He still took care of them )

Sin also affects our ability to have harmonious relationships with others and it also distorts our view of others as well as ourselves. Sin is deceitful.


We chose to live holy lives because we are just being who we truly are in Christ - not to maintain right standing with God. This living good holy lives creates right relationships with people, it will not give our enemy an influence in our lives and it is a good witness to the world.

It reveals the true heart of our loving Father and Lord to show others in this hurt and dying world their love and grace towards them.


Your true identity is not defined by your struggles, mistakes, or sinful actions. These are all confined to the flesh and are the works of the flesh as Paul said. Who you are is defined by your new birth in Christ. You are who you are by His grace and life in you!

Behavioral issues are usually the result of trying to live under the law in some form - such as the false doctrine of "sinless perfection in the flesh" and that believers sealed with the Holy Spirit lose salvation. Jesus is NOT a liar when He said that the Holy spirit will be in you forever. John 14:16

This "lose your salvation" false doctrine which discourages believers and brings fear and hopelessness to them as they struggle in the flesh with some things.

This causes them to have their faith ship-wrecked because they feel condemned and don't know how to walk by the spirit yet nor are they taught the gospel of the grace of God in Christ properly in order to grow up in Him.


Once you understand you are completely accepted and sin free forever in Jesus in your inner man created in righteousness and holiness - and that this is your permanent state for all eternity in Christ - the behavioral issues will fall off of our lives like dead leaves.

The "sap" of His life in and through us transforms us outwardly by the Holy Spirit as we behold the glory ( goodness ) of the Lord Jesus as in a mirror. We see all the goodness that He has already done for us and we also see ourselves in Him as one spirit with the Lord. 2 Cor. 3:17-18

I maintain that the preaching and teaching of the love and grace of God in the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ brings true righteousness which is His alone and there will be deeds of His life manifested in us if we are fed Christ Himself and His righteousness to us.

He has cleansed our hearts by faith and now we are to walk from this new heart in Christ.

As we have received Him - so we walk in Him. Col. 2:6. It is all by grace through faith in what Christ has already done.