The Rapture

[PlainWord]

I've cooled off a bit from all the madness and confusion so it's time to return!

Lets see now, Josephus quotes going down oh WHYYYYY did i come back WHYYYYYYYY. Come on PlainWord can't you quote some other historians?

Lemme try to hit yall up with something: Daniel 12:1-2. These two passages are fairly simple, first you have the end times tribulation during which Michael will protect Israel, then you have a resurrection occuring.

Now since we know the resurrection aint happened yet, we can be sure that the tribulation hasn't happened yet either, ESPECIALLY when Jesus said that its gonna be:

Matthew 24:21-22

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.



Now we know this aint happened because a bunch of worse stuff has happened since 70A.D. including two World Wars, the holocaust, crusades, the islamic invasion and the Golden State Warriors winning with a ton of all-star players and so on and so forth.

How about a little Hegesippus? Read a little history, maybe you'll learn something.

Thus by blood fire destruction hunger the sinews of the entire city were cut down. No place was free from danger, no time was found for deliberation, no hope of change, no opportunity of escape. Everything was gloomy, full of dread, full of frightfulness, lamentations everywhere, panic, everywhere the cries of women, lamentations of the aged, groans of the dying, the despair of the living, so you would say those were wretched who remained, those were happy who had died.

But it is a wonder that you do not believe it is about to be destroyed, since you may read the prophetic books, in which the destruction of our country has been announced to you and and the restored greatness again destroyed by the Roman army. For what else does Daniel shout? He prophesized not indeed what had already been done but what would happen. What is the abomination of devastation which he proclaimed would be by the coming Romans, unless it is that which now threatens? What is that prophecy, which has been often recalled by us announced by god on high, that the city would be utterly destroyed at that time, when its fellow tribesmen will have been killed by the hands of the citizens, unless that which we see now being fulfilled? And perhaps, because it no longer pleases for the temple polluted with forbidden blood to be defended, it pleases that it be cleansed by fire."

If you don't want to read history, read Deu 28 and you will read all about the Great Tribulation. Start around verse 25. Or you can keep waiting for some future temple, future abomination and future destruction if you want. Makes no difference to me.

 

[PlainWord]

Jesus uses this event in Daniel as shorthand to prophesy what was going to happen to Jerusalem and the Temple in their generation It is used again by John in Revelation to explain that Jerusalem will be desolated again in a future time before the second coming.

Why do you not think they are the same event, because they are? Revelation is mostly about the events of 66-70 AD. Read Deu 28:25-and on. You will find an exact description of the GT of 70 AD. There is no future destruction. The next time they are surrounded God wipes them out.

 

[Muzungu256]

How about a little Hegesippus? Read a little history, maybe you'll learn something.

Thus by blood fire destruction hunger the sinews of the entire city were cut down. No place was free from danger, no time was found for deliberation, no hope of change, no opportunity of escape. Everything was gloomy, full of dread, full of frightfulness, lamentations everywhere, panic, everywhere the cries of women, lamentations of the aged, groans of the dying, the despair of the living, so you would say those were wretched who remained, those were happy who had died.

But it is a wonder that you do not believe it is about to be destroyed, since you may read the prophetic books, in which the destruction of our country has been announced to you and and the restored greatness again destroyed by the Roman army. For what else does Daniel shout? He prophesized not indeed what had already been done but what would happen. What is the abomination of devastation which he proclaimed would be by the coming Romans, unless it is that which now threatens? What is that prophecy, which has been often recalled by us announced by god on high, that the city would be utterly destroyed at that time, when its fellow tribesmen will have been killed by the hands of the citizens, unless that which we see now being fulfilled? And perhaps, because it no longer pleases for the temple polluted with forbidden blood to be defended, it pleases that it be cleansed by fire."

If you don't want to read history, read Deu 28 and you will read all about the Great Tribulation. Start around verse 25. Or you can keep waiting for some future temple, future abomination and future destruction if you want. Makes no difference to me.

but no have u seen that they really are building the temple soon???????????? they got everything ready all they need is permission from their governent to do it......... so think now they are against it ok the temple? right but wait until someone like the antichrist shows up and makes a deal allowing them to build it you see...... they are so desperate for the temple they take it from anyone they can maybe???? i dunno how it goes but it looks like this consider it mon

 

[iamsoandso]

Adar 1&2 why are they added?(among the others),what did he mean if it was intended for those who would hear it? ,,,remove time and the grain was not over ripe?

 

[heartofdavid]

I think the thing that they ask Samuel for is exactly what they got "A king like the rest of mankind", and that as God explained it was not Samuel they were refusing but in fact God as their king. Other than that they will again seek it,a king and kingdom and will build it and then the one that they are seeking instead of Jesus will come.

That's the thing about 1948 in that any way you look at it it is incorrect and unnecessary and at the same time unfolding in front of us. So what is it and head wounded and healed? Will they receive the one who comes in his own name seeing they do not receive the one who came in his fathers name, John 5:43 ?

Often times I point out that in eschatology many look and cannot find the AOD nor the mark nor the number and that the apostles said to honour the authority over them as if ordained by God Romans 13:1 . And again I point out that if the Jews in ad66-70 did not bow down to Caesar and honour his authority as if ordained by God and did not use his money to buy and sell Revelation 13:17 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Jewish_Revolt_coinage then they (the Jews in ad66-70) did not receive the mark of the beast if it is Rome either.

There are things to be considered even more that is if the eagle's (ensigns) set up by the different legions at the east gate Josephus: Of the War, Book VI (chapter 6) were the AOD then the sign given by Jesus our Lord signalling them to leave is not before the destruction but after and so those who would have paid heed to it would have already perished. The harlot that Titus is suppose to have taken into the Holy place after the temple is destroyed by fire were actually his generals (see 3-7 of same link).

But the point in fact is that if the Jews cast off the Romans money and minted their own then they absolutely did not buy and sell with Rome’s money and if they revolted,rebelled against Rome's authority (Jewish revolt=ad66-70) it cannot be said that they bowed down to the beast(if it's Rome).

Then the issue of Revelation 17:10-12 that is if this was written in ,,,say, ad44 then the beast Rome would need to have one more head rise and then divide into the ten horns between ad42 and ad70 because the scriptures state that 5 were(past tense at the time written) one was,(at the time written) and the 7'th and 8th and the ten horns were all still spoken of as if they would come at an future time(no one is accounting for this)...

There are other things to consider but this is enough for now. I often say I am "outside the camps",that is who would care if one or the other crows in the end if all of the rest of us do not get to join in? I think it much more to consider the matter as if you all are in this camp and that in the end we find what is correct and right and we all are humbled.

Nice post.

amazing isn't it,that history itself disproves the historicist view.

It is boring reading the exchanges of the preterists takeover and derailment of this thread.

 

[iamsoandso]

Nice post.

amazing isn't it,that history itself disproves the historicist view.

It is boring reading the exchanges of the preterists takeover and derailment of this thread.

I think they are fair minded with each other in their conversation as if open minded,bare in mind I said in the post you quoted "I am outside the camps",,,

 

[heartofdavid]

Interesting that you guys spiritualize away so cunningly the flying scorpions,the fiery hailstones and the mark of the beast,and insist satan is bound.

but concerning the AOD.....now that really happened huh?

 

[heartofdavid]

I think they are fair minded with each other in their conversation as if open minded,bare in mind I said in the post you quoted "I am outside the camps",,,

Neither am I

In fact ,the debate on whether the moon landing actually happened would grab me more than to keep engaging them in airing up a dead mule

 

[KJV1611]

Its the result of the time of first century reformation which restored the government of God to another time period when there was no outward representative and men walked by faith in respect to God as our king reigning from heaven. I would suggest restored to the period of the Judges when His word were the counselors by which a person could hear and therefore believe God as he worked in them to both will and perform His god pleasure (imputed righteousness) .

I don't quite understand what you meant there. Are you saying from Christ to AD 70 was a time of first century reformation?

 

[KJV1611]

Interesting prospective. That would mean Christ died at the end of Week 69 and not half way into Week 70. That would put the end of Week 69 and the Cross at 30 AD. Rome took a week to destroy the Jews 66-73 AD. Are you now seeing a gap?

No gap. There was a 7 week period and a 62 week period and then came Messiah the Prince. Then Jesus confirmed the covenant in the 70th week.

From that we can glean that Messiah was the Prince before the crucifixtion.

Edit: I would love to know what event happened 62 weeks prior to the triumphal entry.

 

[iamsoandso]

Gap, think unless those days were "shortened",,,think Adar...

 

[KJV1611]

Interesting prospective. That would mean Christ died at the end of Week 69 and not half way into Week 70. That would put the end of Week 69 and the Cross at 30 AD. Rome took a week to destroy the Jews 66-73 AD. Are you now seeing a gap?

To add to the comment I made earlier on this, keep in mind that from the triumphal entry to the crucifixtion was exactly 7 days. Jesus literally fulfilled that week in 7 days, not 7x7 years.

 

[KJV1611]

I just noticed that when Jesus enter Jerusalem, the first thing he did was cast out the crooks in the temple and the very next day he cursed the fig tree.... I think this is prophetic.

Mark 11:10-14 KJV
Blessed be the kingdom of our father David, that cometh in the name of the Lord: Hosanna in the highest. [11] And Jesus entered into Jerusalem, and into the temple: and when he had looked round about upon all things, and now the eventide was come, he went out unto Bethany with the twelve. [12] And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry: [13] And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet . [14] And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it.

 

[Bladerunner]

Rom 3:22 is talking about an individual's being made righteous before God. Through believing on the Lord Jesus Christ, we are made righteous.

Is there still unrighteousness in the world? An almost unfathomable amount.

There will be a LOT less in the millennial kingdom. Jesus will rule with a "rod of iron".

And there will be NO unrighteousness in the eternal kingdom.

Your on the right trac..... stay away from the atheist(s) on here.

 

[Bladerunner]

How many of you premillennials believe in animal sacrifices during the millennium in a temple? Why? What happened to the sacrifice of Jesus once and for all for sins? And do not lie to me and say those are memorial in nature, because Ezekiel is clear that they are sin offerings, it mentions the word clearly, sin offerings, not memorial but sin offerings. Yes I know that blood of bulls and goats could never take away sins, that still does not make any sense as to why have animal sacrifices in the millenium.

are you really and truly asking or are you just playing games like a few on this thread.

 

[VCO]

How many of you premillennials believe in animal sacrifices during the millennium in a temple? Why? What happened to the sacrifice of Jesus once and for all for sins? And do not lie to me and say those are memorial in nature, because Ezekiel is clear that they are sin offerings, it mentions the word clearly, sin offerings, not memorial but sin offerings. Yes I know that blood of bulls and goats could never take away sins, that still does not make any sense as to why have animal sacrifices in the millenium.

THE MORTALS OF THE Thousand Year KINGDOM WILL SACRIFICE.

Zechariah 14:16-21 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] And it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain on them.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] If the family of Egypt does not go up or enter, then no rain will fall on them; it will be the plague with which the LORD smites the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] This will be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] In that day there will be inscribed on the bells of the horses, "HOLY TO THE LORD." And the cooking pots in the LORD'S house will be like the bowls before the altar.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] Every cooking pot in Jerusalem and in Judah will be holy to the LORD of hosts; and all who sacrifice will come and take of them and boil in them. And there will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts in that day.

 

[tanakh]

Its ironic that some of the greatest Theologians and Preachers of the 19th Century would not be welcome in many Churches today because they didnt believe in a Pre Trib Rapture. One being Spurgeon who opposed John Darby who among others spread this teaching. The truth is that it is a classic case of the Cart coming before the Horse. People think it came about by people making a long and careful study of the Bible and through inspiration of the Holy Spirit made this' astounding' discovery.The truth is that it was started by a teenage girl in Scotland around 1830 named Margaret McDonald who during a revival had a vision that included the Pre Trib rapture idea. It was only after that people who believed it was genuine started digging into the bible to cobble texts together. So on this shaky foundation a whole set of teachings emerged which was later namedDispensationalism.

I have a second hand copy of a book called The incredible Cover up by Dave MacPherson it has had a number of reprints.the last being in 2008. MacPherson did extensive research into the history and origins of the teaching both in the US and Britain. The book includes Margaret McDonalds own account of her vision and has many references of the sources he used. It is an American Publication and I am not sure whether it is still in print but its well worth reading. It was published by Omega Publications.

 

[Ahwatukee]

The truth is that it was started by a teenage girl in Scotland around 1830 named Margaret McDonald who during a revival had a vision that included the Pre Trib rapture idea. It was only after that people who believed it was genuine started digging into the bible to cobble texts together. So on this shaky foundation a whole set of teachings emerged which was later named Dispensationalism.

Tanakh, Your theory is not valid. I have never read anything by Darby, Scofield or Margret. My conclusions come through over 40 years of cross-reverencing and comparing scripture. I came to the conclusion that the church would be gathered prior to God's wrath being poured out, which begins with the opening of the first seal.

Those people mentioned above have nothing to do with the written word of God. Frankly I'm sick of hearing this repeated apologetic regarding these people being responsible for the pre-tribulation belief, as they have not one Iota of influence regarding my conclusion of the timing of the gathering of the church.

It was/is a promise of Christ to all believers from the on-set of the church right up to the resurrection. It is, or should be, every believers blessed hope and longing. The coming wrath of God is going to be something that is unprecedented which will be like birth pains leading up to when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, decimating the majority of the population of the earth. If the church was upon the earth during the time of God's wrath, then the blessed hope would not be a blessed hope. Nor could we comfort one another with this hope.

It amazes me at the amount of effort you people put in to try to undermine the teaching regarding the pre tribulation gathering of the church. Frankly, those who believe otherwise don't have much faith in Christ who took upon himself the wrath that every believer deserves. Nor do they understand the coming wrath.

"Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth."

"The hour of trial" is another designation for "the day of the Lord." Both are synonymous referring to the time of God's wrath. Regarding this, Jesus said "I will keep you 'out of' the hour of trial. The word is "ek" meaning "out of." Not through, not during, but out of that time of trial. And the way in which He will keep believers out of that time of wrath, is by descending and gathering the church and taking them back to the Father's house as He promised in John 14:1-3. This promise is to the entire church, from beginning to end and not to just those in the first century.

"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath."

Those who believe in Christ, have been credited with righteousness and have been reconciled to God. Yet, you and others don't understand what this entails. For if you did, you would not have the church going through the wrath of God.

"Now, brothers, about times and dates (of the resurrection and catching away) we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief."

"And they will not escape. But you brothers"

"But you brothers" infers the opposite of not escaping. And how will they escape? They will escape according to what Paul previously described regarding the living being changed and caught up.

"They (the beast and the ten kings) will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

"Hallelujah!For our Lord God Almighty reigns. Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.”

"The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean."

The bride/church receives her fine linen, white and clean in heaven at the wedding of the Lamb. Then in Verse 14, the armies of heaven who are riding on white horses and following the Lord out of heaven, are seen wearing the same fine linen, white and clean that she will have received at the wedding of the Lamb. In order to follow Christ out of heaven, you have to already be in heaven.

In Rev.17:14, we have a reference to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and returning with Him will be His "called, chosen and faithful followers." These are those riding on the white horses following the Lord out of heaven.

Neither Darby, Scofield, Margaret nor anyone else taught me the information that I just presented. It all comes straight from scripture. So please stop with this apologetic regarding these people, because along with myself and others who know the truth, we did not get our information from adopting their teachings.

 

[KJV1611]

Daniel 8:11 KJVYea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

Christ or antichrist?

 

[PlainWord]

but no have u seen that they really are building the temple soon???????????? they got everything ready all they need is permission from their governent to do it......... so think now they are against it ok the temple? right but wait until someone like the antichrist shows up and makes a deal allowing them to build it you see...... they are so desperate for the temple they take it from anyone they can maybe???? i dunno how it goes but it looks like this consider it mon

Who knows if they will rebuild the temple or not. Who cares? Maybe they will build it somewhere else because it ain't going on the temple mount, I can tell you that much. The Muslims won't let Jews up there to pray (or Christians for that matter), do you really think they will allow a Jewish temple? I don't care what antiChrist makes a deal with both sides, it isn't happening.

The vast majority of the Jew don't give a rip about the temple. Maybe 2% of the population wants it. That isn't enough to go to war over. Besides, there is no future antiChrist foretold and there is no prophesy of a third temple (except the spiritual one we each belong to). Unlike "Field of Dreams," if they build it, He won't come.